-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Part of WCML to be closed Acton Grange Junction engineering work
- Thread starter Peter0124
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
There may only be 1TPH in each direction but there's also Lostock Works, Viridor Northernden and a few Drax trains to contend with as well as the extra peak train.
Bevan Price
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 7,343
I am sure that the planners are mostly excellent - but I expect that "the rules" are set by "top management", and the planners just follow those rules.
The lack of cooperation between TOCs regarding adjusting paths is yet another example of John Major's disastrous fragmentation of the national passenger network. Also I hope that Northern manage to strengthen their Manchester - Northwich - Chester services; 2 coach Sprinters or Pacers expected to carry "diverted" TfW passengers, in addition to their normal loads, will be "chaos".
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
I have an idea.
Since 175's are still cleared, get 2 2x2 (2 2 car's coupled) sets and use those on Northern services and have both Northern & TFW staff on board. IIRC that leaves 1, possibly 2 workings which Northern could find 2/4 Sprinters/Pacers for.
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 15,963
What rules? And it is pointless trying to explain the work and cooperation that has happened between TOCs and FOCs for this since it will be dismissed out of hand anyway.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Here's how busy the M-CL is. In the space of just over an hour, there are 3 Northbound & 3 Southbound trains through Northwich.
Confused52
Member
- Joined
- 5 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 258
Brilliant idea to push that most reliable of services from Glasgow Central (GLC) to London Euston (EUS) and back via Deansgate, what could possibly go wrong.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bevan Price
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 7,343
OK - Sometimes I like to act as a sort of "Devil's Advocate", maybe because I was a scientist, and it was customary to ask awkward questions, and challenge the established facts & theories.
By "rules", I meant that it is top management who will decide whether or not to try and reroute services, not the individual planners.
And by lack of cooperation between TOCs, I refer to your comment in #17 - no TOC would agree about path changes between Manchester & Stockport.
I doubt that this would have happened in BR days - diversions during engineering work were common - replacement buses were often a last resort when no alternative route was available. Now, it seems that replacement buses are often chosen as "the easy option" for the operators, regardless of the effect on passengers, and the all-too-common failure to ensure that trains are held for late running replacement bus connections.
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 15,963
Its an extension of an existing Manchester service, not a Euston Glasgow one, what else would you have suggested?
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 15,963
Because it was shown not to be feasible without re-writing most of the Manchester area for 16 days and arguably causing more problems than it solved.
I can absolutely assure you that it is not ‘top management’ who decide whether to reroute services or not. That decision is left to the planners who know the timetables inside out, and also, crucially, know the loadings and likely demand on the relevant services.
It is also the planners who work together - from NR and all the relevant TOCs / FOCs. It is a requirement of the Network Code that the relevant organisations work together to produce a solution for amended timetables for engineering works that best meets the needs of passengers. Clearly not every passenger can be perfectly accommodated. I don’t know the detail for the Acton Grange job, but I’d be surprised if train planning didn’t start for it well over a year ago.
In BR days two things were very different:
Firstly the rules about working alongside (or above) open lines was completlely different. A number of incidents involving railway staff never going home again, and on track machinery finding itself in the side of passenger trains put paid to that. I have mentioned before that I know people who electrified the ECML who were on OLE headspans whilst HSTs whipped through underneath.
Secondly there was much less traffic to deal with, and no public punctuality statistics to worry about (particularly at weekends). Single line working on the ECML was easy at weekends with an hourly service to each of Leeds and Edinburgh. And it didn’t matter (except to passengers) if trains arrived 2 hours late due to engineering works. Rather different now.
Last edited:
Class 170101
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 7,942
I'd agree that the Northern servioce not running to Warrington Bank Quay is odd. TfW not diverting their Manchester service from Chester to Crewe instead of the dedicated shuttle does seem an odd one to me given the connections there for services to Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly will be more preferable than a bus journey.
Chester1 said:
I was more wondering why the Glasgow / Edinburgh services that are terminating at Preston weren't running to Warrington Bank Quay and bussing from there to Crewe - couple of early trains are going to Wigan NW but thats all. The London to Glasgow (via Trent Valley) diverting via Manchester is the right thing to do. (PS I know its a Manchester extended before anyone asks)
No its definitely not easy.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The diverted London-Glasgow services have something like 11 minutes of allowances between Piccadilly and Preston (running via Astley).
I can't see any VT trains routed via Bolton.
Maybe there are no paths, and they would have to miss the Wigan stop,
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 15,963
That is to get it back on its original path, nothing via Bolton so they can serve Wigan as you suggest.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Do VTWC know the route via Bolton and also they would not be able to fulfil any Wigan calls.
Not really, they're not using Bolton.
wireforever
Member
- Joined
- 7 Feb 2019
- Messages
- 125
A few years ago at my local station Sankey a class 57 Thunderbird came through on a pendolino drag from Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly then down to London a bonus whilst I waited for my Pacer to Manchester!
any engineering work now on the old Cheshire Lines route is bus replacement
any engineering work now on the old Cheshire Lines route is bus replacement
Bevan Price
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 7,343
Thank you for your patient & helpful replies to my comments. I hope you experts understand that what seems to be the obvious, sensible (or only) solution available can sometimes seem strange or incomprehensible to passengers, even to those of us with a little knowledge about railways.
I would comment, though, that a lot more could be done to minimise the delays to passengers when rail replacement buses have to be used. For example, more use of express buses covering the biggest traffic flows, and separate buses (or even minibuses) to serve the less busy intermediate stations - rather than every single bus wandering over roundabout routes to call at all the intermediate stations. Also, it would be helpful if buses departed as soon as all the passengers have had time to transfer from train to bus, rather than sit waiting for 5 or more minutes before the bus departs.
And I feel sorry for any passengers who had to endure as much as 200 miles of replacement bus travel on parts of WCML at Easter (Preston / Carlisle / Glasgow / Edinburgh); surely some way could have been found to run a few (less than hourly) diversions via Settle & Carlisle, or via Dumfries ?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Better TOCs do avoid all-stations buses. Sadly Northern is not a better TOC.
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 15,963
No problem, but it riles me (and a lot of others who work hard in the industry on here) when people trot out the normal "It happened under BR", "why haven't they looked at this" "Don't care about the passengers" "the line isn't full"
when these sort of jobs have been worked on by NR and the TOC/FOCs in collaboration for many many months from getting the access agreed to the end product. Those things people suggest have been looked at and discarded for often very good reasons. It is NEVER going to be perfect and someone somewhere is going to be inconvenienced. Buses are down to the operators and they are basically sub contracted out so that is something they need to improve on. Diversionary routes have been done to death and you cannot force a TOC to use them.
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
No problem, but it riles me (and a lot of others who work hard in the industry on here) when people trot out the normal "It happened under BR", "why haven't they looked at this" "Don't care about the passengers" "the line isn't full"
Buses are down to the operators and they are basically sub contracted out so that is something they need to improve on. Diversionary routes have been done to death and you cannot force a TOC to use them.
(Hunts in vain for like button)
Also, picking up Bald Rick's post, the last time we relaid Acton Grange Junction (one of many WCML junctions I relaid and or reballasted in the 1990s) the railway was just shut, with no great attempt at a diversion, all weekend, on and off, for months. So it didn't always happen under BR - in fact, on any average Saturday night or Sunday afternoon a Lanco-Scottish traveller played a kind of train-roulette. I know of at least half a dozen passengers who had to be conveyed from Lancaster to Carlisle in an 18-seat Relayer's gang bus (complete with reeking thunderbox and pornography collection, at 55mph) because the block was taken correctly but before the last train had run.
Bevan Price
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 7,343
I suppose that some of us who have been around for a long time sometimes look back through the proverbial rose-tinted spectacles. In my case, I worked in London for 2 years whilst the WCML was being electrified, and travelled home every 3 to 4 weeks. Saturday engineering work seemed to start after the last trains had run, and they mostly tried to complete it by early evening on Sunday. So, going north on Saturday morning was usually no problem - apart from lots of tsrs. (Although in practice, I often "track-bashed by using different indirect routes. Returning from Liverpool to Euston on Sunday afternoons was different, but never needed replacement buses. So, plenty of checks, tsrs, switching between slow / fast lines several times - and assorted diversion routes, e.g. Middlewich, Chester Triangle, Walsall/Sutton Park / Nuneaton, Northampton - and once to Kensingon Olympia instead of Euston.....
But yes, at that time multiple weekend projects were preferred to single 1-2 weeklong projects.
But yes, at that time multiple weekend projects were preferred to single 1-2 weeklong projects.
Also worth bearing in mind that in the early sixties the roads were in a rather different state, and there simply weren’t as many buses suitable for RRBs. It just wasn’t an option.
Freightmaster
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 3,495
Yes - 'Rail Replacement Lorries' are not quite as easy to arrange as RRBs!
Most trains (intermodal/mail/Clitheroe cement, etc) are diverted via Eccles,
with a few workings, such as the Chirk logs, running via Edge Hill (reverse).
Although a lot of freight runs late evening/overnight, there are still quite a few
daytime movements, which will put pressure on pathing on the Eccles route and
the Manchester area in general...
MARK
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Which sounds like the first commercial freight use of the Halton Curve?
Ah well, can't be helped I suppose.
Will this mean additional freights running through Piccadilly 13/14? Or has someone managed to find paths through Victoria (in which case, whoever did deserves some kind of train planning medal)?
If someone is travelling from Glasgow to Manchester, what is the reason for making them change at Lancaster/Preston/Wigan, when the train is actually stopping at Manchester? I understand Manchester is a pick up only, but why?
TBSchenker
Member
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2010
- Messages
- 552
That's strange,because in the early 90s my mate and used to ride between Preston and Crewe on the 'drags' when Acton Grange Jn was closed for a full blockade.
Trains were diverted via Bolton & Manchester Piccadilly, via Wigan and Edge Hill (reverse), and I even recorded one via Stockport and Manchester Victoria!
Intercity even published a massive booklet of amendments which we carried with us.
- Status