There may only be 1TPH in each direction but there's also Lostock Works, Viridor Northernden and a few Drax trains to contend with as well as the extra peak train.However Chester to Stockport via Northwich should not be a problem in most hours
I am sure that the planners are mostly excellent - but I expect that "the rules" are set by "top management", and the planners just follow those rules.Planners can never win. They certainly can never win with "experts"! It is a hard job and nowhere near as easy or as straight forward as people here seem to think.
I have an idea.I am sure that the planners are mostly excellent - but I expect that "the rules" are set by "top management", and the planners just follow those rules.
The lack of cooperation between TOCs regarding adjusting paths is yet another example of John Major's disastrous fragmentation of the national passenger network. Also I hope that Northern manage to strengthen their Manchester - Northwich - Chester services; 2 coach Sprinters or Pacers expected to carry "diverted" TfW passengers, in addition to their normal loads, will be "chaos".
What rules? And it is pointless trying to explain the work and cooperation that has happened between TOCs and FOCs for this since it will be dismissed out of hand anyway.I am sure that the planners are mostly excellent - but I expect that "the rules" are set by "top management", and the planners just follow those rules.
The lack of cooperation between TOCs regarding adjusting paths is yet another example of John Major's disastrous fragmentation of the national passenger network. Also I hope that Northern manage to strengthen their Manchester - Northwich - Chester services; 2 coach Sprinters or Pacers expected to carry "diverted" TfW passengers, in addition to their normal loads, will be "chaos".
What rules? And it is pointless trying to explain the work and cooperation that has happened between TOCs and FOCs for this since it will be dismissed out of hand anyway.
Its an extension of an existing Manchester service, not a Euston Glasgow one, what else would you have suggested?Brilliant idea to push that most reliable of services from GLA to EUS and back via Deansgate, what could possibly go wrong.
Because it was shown not to be feasible without re-writing most of the Manchester area for 16 days and arguably causing more problems than it solved.By "rules", I meant that it is top management who will decide whether or not to try and reroute services, not the individual planners.
And by lack of cooperation between TOCs, I refer to your comment in #17 - no TOC would agree about path changes between Manchester & Stockport.
By "rules", I meant that it is top management who will decide whether or not to try and reroute services, not the individual planners.
And by lack of cooperation between TOCs, I refer to your comment in #17 - no TOC would agree about path changes between Manchester & Stockport.
I doubt that this would have happened in BR days - diversions during engineering work were common - replacement buses were often a last resort when no alternative route was available. Now, it seems that replacement buses are often chosen as "the easy option" for the operators, regardless of the effect on passengers, and the all-too-common failure to ensure that trains are held for late running replacement bus connections.
The Llandudno services give up their paths at Piccadilly and on Chat Moss for London-Glasgow. I am not sure why Northern are not running Warrington Bank Quay - Leeds.
TfW could at least have run the Llandudno-Manchester to Crewe (change for Manchester), replacing the Chester-Crewe shuttle, but they are seemingly not doing anything as helpful as that (that route is permitted on most walk-up tickets, and connects onto TfW at Crewe).
Chester1 said:On Open Train Times it appears that VT Scotland services will be run by Pendolinos. They should roster all London-Manchester/Glasgow services with 11 coach units. The spare Voyagers could be used to strengthen London-Chester to compensate between London and Crewe.
The only thing on the north south axis that is lost is the Euston Brum Scotland service which is a fast coach direct Crewe to Preston from what I can see and is pretty favourable in terms of journey time compared to sitting on the Glasgow via Manchester.
Planners can never win. They certainly can never win with "experts"! It is a hard job and nowhere near as easy or as straight forward as people here seem to think.
Brilliant idea to push that most reliable of services from GLA to EUS and back via Deansgate, what could possibly go wrong.
That is to get it back on its original path, nothing via Bolton so they can serve Wigan as you suggest.The diverted London-Glasgow services have something like 11 minutes of allowances between Piccadilly and Preston (running via Astley).
I can't see any VT trains routed via Bolton.
Maybe there are no paths, and they would have to miss the Wigan stop,
The diverted London-Glasgow services have something like 11 minutes of allowances between Piccadilly and Preston (running via Astley).
I can't see any VT trains routed via Bolton.
Maybe there are no paths, and they would have to miss the Wigan stop,
Not really, they're not using Bolton.At least some service is running through, and completion of the Bolton electrification has made it possible. It could have been buses from Crewe to Preston!
Thank you for your patient & helpful replies to my comments. I hope you experts understand that what seems to be the obvious, sensible (or only) solution available can sometimes seem strange or incomprehensible to passengers, even to those of us with a little knowledge about railways.Because it was shown not to be feasible without re-writing most of the Manchester area for 16 days and arguably causing more problems than it solved.
Thank you for your patient & helpful replies to my comments. I hope you experts understand that what seems to be the obvious, sensible (or only) solution available can sometimes seem strange or incomprehensible to passengers, even to those of us with a little knowledge about railways.
I would comment, though, that a lot more could be done to minimise the delays to passengers when rail replacement buses have to be used. For example, more use of express buses covering the biggest traffic flows, and separate buses (or even minibuses) to serve the less busy intermediate stations - rather than every single bus wandering over roundabout routes to call at all the intermediate stations. Also, it would be helpful if buses departed as soon as all the passengers have had time to transfer from train to bus, rather than sit waiting for 5 or more minutes before the bus departs.
And I feel sorry for any passengers who had to endure as much as 200 miles of replacement bus travel on parts of WCML at Easter (Preston / Carlisle / Glasgow / Edinburgh); surely some way could have been found to run a few (less than hourly) diversions via Settle & Carlisle, or via Dumfries ?
No problem, but it riles me (and a lot of others who work hard in the industry on here) when people trot out the normal "It happened under BR", "why haven't they looked at this" "Don't care about the passengers" "the line isn't full" when these sort of jobs have been worked on by NR and the TOC/FOCs in collaboration for many many months from getting the access agreed to the end product. Those things people suggest have been looked at and discarded for often very good reasons. It is NEVER going to be perfect and someone somewhere is going to be inconvenienced.
Buses are down to the operators and they are basically sub contracted out so that is something they need to improve on. Diversionary routes have been done to death and you cannot force a TOC to use them.
I suppose that some of us who have been around for a long time sometimes look back through the proverbial rose-tinted spectacles. In my case, I worked in London for 2 years whilst the WCML was being electrified, and travelled home every 3 to 4 weeks. Saturday engineering work seemed to start after the last trains had run, and they mostly tried to complete it by early evening on Sunday. So, going north on Saturday morning was usually no problem - apart from lots of tsrs. (Although in practice, I often "track-bashed by using different indirect routes. Returning from Liverpool to Euston on Sunday afternoons was different, but never needed replacement buses. So, plenty of checks, tsrs, switching between slow / fast lines several times - and assorted diversion routes, e.g. Middlewich, Chester Triangle, Walsall/Sutton Park / Nuneaton, Northampton - and once to Kensingon Olympia instead of Euston.....
But yes, at that time multiple weekend projects were preferred to single 1-2 weeklong projects.
Yes - 'Rail Replacement Lorries' are not quite as easy to arrange as RRBs!Is freight being diverted?
with a few workings, such as the Chirk logs, running via Edge Hill (reverse).
Ah well, can't be helped I suppose.Although a lot of freight runs late evening/overnight, there are still quite a few
daytime movements, which will put pressure on pathing on the Eccles route and
the Manchester area in general...
If someone is travelling from Glasgow to Manchester, what is the reason for making them change at Lancaster/Preston/Wigan, when the train is actually stopping at Manchester? I understand Manchester is a pick up only, but why?All Glasgow to London and vice versa trains to run through Manchester, boarding only at Piccadily southbound and alighting only northbound.
(Hunts in vain for like button)
Also, picking up Bald Rick's post, the last time we relaid Acton Grange Junction (one of many WCML junctions I relaid and or reballasted in the 1990s) the railway was just shut, with no great attempt at a diversion, all weekend, on and off, for months. So it didn't always happen under BR - in fact, on any average Saturday night or Sunday afternoon a Lanco-Scottish traveller played a kind of train-roulette. I know of at least half a dozen passengers who had to be conveyed from Lancaster to Carlisle in an 18-seat Relayer's gang bus (complete with reeking thunderbox and pornography collection, at 55mph) because the block was taken correctly but before the last train had run.