Rail company's liability for stolen luggage

limmerbucket · 27 Apr 2019

Hello everyone,

First of all, apologies if I'm not posting this on the right forum section. Yesterday I had my luggage nicked from the luggage racks on the Sheffield to St. Pancras EMT train, sometime between Sheffield and Leicester. I've rang the BTP to file a theft report and also submitted a lost item form on EMT's website.

My question is, very straightforwardly, if I'm entitled for compensation by EMT for my loss. There is a ton of information online about LOST luggage, but very little about STOLEN luggage... I wonder why that is the case.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

RailUK Forums

221129 · 27 Apr 2019

I very much doubt it...

Aivilo · 27 Apr 2019

It's unfortunate that something has been stolen however not blame can be attributed to the company

ForTheLoveOf · 27 Apr 2019

Unless EMT had directly taken care of the luggage (e.g. in a left luggage facility), they are unlikely to be liable for the theft merely by virtue of you leaving the luggage on a train leased and run by them.

Claim on travel or home (contents) insurance. You do have insurance, don't you?

limmerbucket · 27 Apr 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Unless EMT had directly taken care of the luggage (e.g. in a left luggage facility), they are unlikely to be liable for the theft merely by virtue of you leaving the luggage on a train leased and run by them.

Claim on travel or home (contents) insurance. You do have insurance, don't you?

I do have home insurance.

ForTheLoveOf · 27 Apr 2019

limmerbucket said:
I do have home insurance.

An inconvenience then, but fortunately a minimal financial loss.

najaB · 27 Apr 2019

limmerbucket said:
My question is, very straightforwardly, if I'm entitled for compensation by EMT for my loss.

I can't see how you would be. On what grounds do you see them as liable?

ForTheLoveOf · 27 Apr 2019

najaB said:
I can't see how you would be. On what grounds do you see them as liable?

It's an understandable sentiment, since there might be liability in the case of stolen luggage if the luggage had been left, for example, in a luggage van.

Fawkes Cat · 28 Apr 2019

The Conditions of Travel seem to cover this, but I don't think will help the OP:

26. A Train Company’s liabilities with regard to luggage, other accompanied articles and
animals
A Train Company or Rail Service Provider will only be liable for any loss or damage
to luggage, articles, animals or cycles in its trains or on its premises if the loss or
damage was caused by the fault of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Provider’s staff.
The maximum liability of a Train Company or Rail Service Provider with regard to such
matters is £1,500 per passenger.

In the absence of any other reference to it in NRCoT (and I haven't found any other reference on a quick look through), I think that theft is implicitly included in 'any loss or damage' (my emphasis) so since no one has suggested that the railway was at fault, the OP doesn't have a claim against them. And this ties up with

(a) my understanding of the situation in non-railway places: for example, car parks tend to have disclaimers against liability for loss or damage
(b) common sense: it's a bit hard to see what a railway could do to prevent theft from an unsupervised open shelf, so surely it's the responsibility of anyone who leaves luggage in such a place to keep an eye on their luggage?

I am sorry to bring bad news, and to sound so unsympathetic at a difficult time.

ag51ruk · 28 Apr 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
An inconvenience then, but fortunately a minimal financial loss.

Not all home contents insurance covers items away from home - it's often an optional add-on for cheaper policies.

Stigy · 28 Apr 2019

limmerbucket said:
Hello everyone,

First of all, apologies if I'm not posting this on the right forum section. Yesterday I had my luggage nicked from the luggage racks on the Sheffield to St. Pancras EMT train, sometime between Sheffield and Leicester. I've rang the BTP to file a theft report and also submitted a lost item form on EMT's website.

My question is, very straightforwardly, if I'm entitled for compensation by EMT for my loss. There is a ton of information online about LOST luggage, but very little about STOLEN luggage... I wonder why that is the case.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

As others have said, most TOCs will not take any responsibility for stolen luggage. Just a thought, but are you sure it was stolen and not picked up by mistake? Might be worth checking lost property if you haven’t already.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Apr 2019

ag51ruk said:
Not all home contents insurance covers items away from home - it's often an optional add-on for cheaper policies.

In which case one cannot complain if one decided to skimp out on the required cover!

VauxhallandI · 1 May 2019

Does your credit card have travel insurance as part of its benefits?

limmerbucket · 17 May 2019

Ok. So a couple of weeks have passed and I've just been contacted by the BTP regarding the closing of the case. They told me that they contacted EMT to request access to CCTV footage and EMT was unable to meet said request because the image files were corrupted when they attempted to retrieve them. I would like to file a complaint against them, but I'm unsure how to go about it effectively. Any suggestion would be welcome.

ForTheLoveOf · 17 May 2019

limmerbucket said:
Ok. So a couple of weeks have passed and I've just been contacted by the BTP regarding the closing of the case. They told me that they contacted EMT to request access to CCTV footage and EMT was unable to meet said request because the image files were corrupted when they attempted to retrieve them. I would like to file a complaint against them, but I'm unsure how to go about it effectively. Any suggestion would be welcome.

Contact them using the details provided on their website or Passenger Charter and explain the circumstances and what your complaint is.

I'm not sure what recourse you're hoping to achieve - the TOC has no obligation to provide working CCTV, so even if it was poor form of them to have a train running with broken CCTV, I don't see that this is really the train company's fault. At best, if the footage did exist, it would show some untraceable person.

It's surely just something to write off as one of life's unfortunate incidents?

richa2002 · 17 May 2019

I think the OP needs to acknowledge that the only person to blame is the perpretrator and if he wishes to avoid it happening again, to keep more of an eye on his luggage.

This continual looking for someone to blame just fuels the ghastly litigation culture that strangles this country.

WesternLancer · 17 May 2019

richa2002 said:
I think the OP needs to acknowledge that the only person to blame is the perpretrator and if he wishes to avoid it happening again, to keep more of an eye on his luggage.

This continual looking for someone to blame just fuels the ghastly litigation culture that strangles this country.

Harsh, but prob true - after all EMT COULD have cancelled the train due to the faulty CCTV and the OP would then not have been on board to have had their luggage stolen to start with....

Actually a colleague of mine recently reported to me that his son had had luggage stolen when returning to university on a train, and had written the matter off as bad luck (didn't even report it to BTP etc). Some few months later BTP contacted said son having found his luggage at the home of a prolific railway luggage thief. No ID on luggage but BTP found an as yet unposted letter in the bag that the victim had not yet sent, evidence in the letter (but not an address of the victim) allowed BTP to contact addressee who worked out who the letter was actually from, thus allowing them to return the stolen bag to its owner. When I heard this story I thought this was absolutely top marks to BTP for their efforts here, since there were fundamentally no items of great value in the bag, but cos the victim was student, would have been of value to him in relative terms. In return he was able to give evidence to BTP as a victim which helped them secure a conviction.

najaB · 17 May 2019

limmerbucket said:
I would like to file a complaint against them, but I'm unsure how to go about it effectively. Any suggestion would be welcome.

What is the nature of your complaint? What did they not do that they should have done?

Deafdoggie · 17 May 2019

I really can't see anything to gain by complaining to the TOC about it. If the CCTV is broken, it is broken. There is nothing that can be done to rectify that afterwards. They will now be aware that it is broken anyway. I can see no reason to contact them about it.

Certainly I can't see any response from them other than an apology, if you are expecting anything else, I am afraid you will be very disappointed.

WelshBluebird · 17 May 2019

I do wonder how you are supposed to "keep an eye on your luggage" when for many trains the only place to put luggage larger than a handbag is in luggage racks at the end of the carriage which are not totally visible from the length of the carriage.

tiptoptaff · 17 May 2019

I'm still unsure why the OP thinks the TOC are in some way to blame for someone stealing their luggage?

Darandio · 17 May 2019

Compensation innit. It's gone and they can claim there were 10 kilos of gold bullion in there.

tiptoptaff · 17 May 2019

Darandio said:
Compensation innit. It's gone and they can claim there were 10 kilos of gold bullion in there.

Ahh yes.

Haywain · 17 May 2019

WelshBluebird said:
I do wonder how you are supposed to "keep an eye on your luggage" when for many trains the only place to put luggage larger than a handbag is in luggage racks at the end of the carriage which are not totally visible from the length of the carriage.

I find a mid sized suitcase will almost always fit in the racks above the seats. The alternative is to carry less luggage.

methethpropbut · 17 May 2019

Is it then acceptable to lock luggage to the rack to prevent it from being stolen?

sheff1 · 17 May 2019

Haywain said:
I find a mid sized suitcase will almost always fit in the racks above the seats. The alternative is to carry less luggage.

A mid size suitcase (which I would class as one which easily fits into the overhead bins on the likes of Ryanair & Easyjet) will not fit into the racks of Voyagers/Meridians and whatever the EMTs trains are on the Liverpool - Norwich run - i.e. the vast majority of long distance trains from my local station.

I am sure frequent travellers will quickly find this out, but they are most likely to be the sort of people who don't carry much luggage anyway. Infrequent long distance travellers might reasonably expect trains to have sensibly sized racks. As an aside, for many years after the above trains were introduced, the Conditions of Carriage (I know most people never read them) stated that a passenger could take with them 2 items of luggage each not exceeding 30 x 70 x 90cm - cases of that size wouldn't fit in the racks.

LowLevel · 18 May 2019

WesternLancer said:
Harsh, but prob true - after all EMT COULD have cancelled the train due to the faulty CCTV and the OP would then not have been on board to have had their luggage stolen to start with....

Actually a colleague of mine recently reported to me that his son had had luggage stolen when returning to university on a train, and had written the matter off as bad luck (didn't even report it to BTP etc). Some few months later BTP contacted said son having found his luggage at the home of a prolific railway luggage thief. No ID on luggage but BTP found an as yet unposted letter in the bag that the victim had not yet sent, evidence in the letter (but not an address of the victim) allowed BTP to contact addressee who worked out who the letter was actually from, thus allowing them to return the stolen bag to its owner. When I heard this story I thought this was absolutely top marks to BTP for their efforts here, since there were fundamentally no items of great value in the bag, but cos the victim was student, would have been of value to him in relative terms. In return he was able to give evidence to BTP as a victim which helped them secure a conviction.

Nice work from BTP.

They couldn't have cancelled the train incidentally because they're unlikely to have known there was a problem - the crew on a class 222 can view the CCTV in real time but they're not attempting to download the hard drive.

etr221 · 18 May 2019

One question that occurs to me is what is the implication of the TOC/its staff insisting or advising that luggage should be placed in the end of coach (so out of sight/unsupervised) racks, rather being kept close by the passenger (and so in the way).

najaB · 18 May 2019

etr221 said:
One question that occurs to me is what is the implication of the TOC/its staff insisting or advising that luggage should be placed in the end of coach (so out of sight/unsupervised) racks, rather being kept close by the passenger (and so in the way).

I'm not sure why that would make a difference as aren't taking responsibility for the safe keeping of your belongings. You are more than free to stay with the luggage.

etr221 · 18 May 2019

najaB said:
I'm not sure why that would make a difference as aren't taking responsibility for the safe keeping of your belongings. You are more than free to stay with the luggage.

Ok, I'll take my own seat, and block the gangway while I sit by my luggage...

Either way, either the company lets me travel adjacent to my luggage, or - implicitly - it is taking some responsibility.

Rail company's liability for stolen luggage

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