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Train waiting outside East Croydon?

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GodAtum

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Often on platform 4 trains coming into London wait at the 1st set of signals underneath the bridge, even though the platform is empty and the next signals at the end of the platform is either red or amber.

I'm no expert, but why can't the train pull into the platform?
 
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westcoaster

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You have to wait for the proceding train to clear the overlap in simple terms.
Or you are awaiting the signaller to clear the signal. It is a controlled signal not an automatic one.
 

hwl

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Often on platform 4 trains coming into London wait at the 1st set of signals underneath the bridge, even though the platform is empty and the next signals at the end of the platform is either red or amber.

I'm no expert, but why can't the train pull into the platform?
Signal overlap (or rather lack thereof) northbound at the end of P4/5
 

RichardN

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What difference would Thameslink core style mid platform signals make to Clapham Junction (P12 & P13) and East Croydon? Would it cause more problems than it would solve?
 

Surreytraveller

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What difference would Thameslink core style mid platform signals make to Clapham Junction (P12 & P13) and East Croydon? Would it cause more problems than it would solve?
You'd have a speed restriction put in due to reduced overlaps. Or the signals would be approach controlled. So would slow trains down
 

Bald Rick

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What difference would Thameslink core style mid platform signals make to Clapham Junction (P12 & P13) and East Croydon? Would it cause more problems than it would solve?

It has been looked at. Requires speed to be reduced to 30mph for all trains.
 

MarkyT

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Here’s an image of the indications panel for the East Croydon area at Three Bridges ASC:
Three Bridges Croydon Panel.jpg
Note the overlap symbol indicated by my added yellow arrow. When an up movement approaches signal 106, points 1608 are locked normal until the movement has come to a complete stand in platform #4. Thus no movement that requires these points in the reverse position can take place simultaneously, such as an up slow departure from platform #5. Similarly if an up route is already set from platform #5 signal 108 over 1608 points reverse, then simultaneous up slow or slow reversible moves from the south into platform #4 are not possible. Thus up slow/Oxted trains cannot use use #4 and #5 alternately with the previous train train still departing while the next one arrives alongside. I recall there was some consideration given to moving signal 106 back a few tens of metres south to make space for a restricted overlap clear of the points and improve flexibility, but this never got anywhere due to complications extending the platform at the south end of the station to compensate for lost standage at the north. Note at the north end the distance from signal 106 to the clearance point of crossover 1608 is little more than about 25m today, definitely insufficient for any kind of clear overlap, and there’s no possibility of moving the junction S&C without some widening of the alignment. I think improving this situation will have to wait until more comprehensive planned developments in the area.
 

Belperpete

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What difference would Thameslink core style mid platform signals make to Clapham Junction (P12 & P13) and East Croydon? Would it cause more problems than it would solve?
Mid-platform signals are a good solution where usually the only thing preventing a train entering the platform is the previous train still occupying the overlap beyond the end of the platform. By the time a train reaches the mid-platform signal, the previous train should have moved on and cleared the overlap and so the mid-platform signal will clear.

The problem with applying this kind of solution at East Croydon is that the overlap beyond the end of the platform is regularly blocked by conflicting routes over the crossover. The mid-platform signal may therefore be unable to clear when a train approaches. It is obviously not a good idea for a passenger train to be stopped for any time half-in half-out the platform.

A better solution would be to provide "closing-up signals" at the entry to the platform, as has been done for south-bound trains (signals 103, 105, etc.). However, if the existing signals reading into the station are not too far from the platforms, so the distance from these signals to the closing-up signals would be fairly small, then the closing-up signals would not give enough benefit to be worthwhile.
 

Sunset route

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The signallling sequence from the south already provides a closing up signals with automatic restricted overlaps on a timer if the closing up signals T114, T116, T118 and T120 are at red from T124, T126 and T128 and the full overlap is not available.
 

RichardN

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It has been looked at. Requires speed to be reduced to 30mph for all trains.

Is 30mph max speed much of an issue in practice? Just the GX, the occasional ECS and freight goes through without stopping anyway. Normally fairly slowly. Same for Clapham Junction.
 

Bald Rick

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Is 30mph max speed much of an issue in practice? Just the GX, the occasional ECS and freight goes through without stopping anyway. Normally fairly slowly. Same for Clapham Junction.

Yes, because most stopping trains will be doing more than 30mph on the way in and on the way out. Aside from slowing journey times, it also effectively reduces capacity as trains take longer to clear the junctions at either end.
 

387star

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Why don't down tl Horsham trains next stop coulsdon south use the slow reversible ie platform 5 rather than 6 at east Croydon to save the slow crawl over the 20 points at south Croydon

Often nothing using the slow rev
 

387star

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The crawl behind a TL stopper Redhill to Gatwick is also a bit crazy on a non stop train
 

Surreytraveller

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Why don't down tl Horsham trains next stop coulsdon south use the slow reversible ie platform 5 rather than 6 at east Croydon to save the slow crawl over the 20 points at south Croydon

Often nothing using the slow rev
Most down Horshams use platform 3 at East Croydon and proceed down the fast. Some rush hour ones use the slow - don't know why they don't use the reversible - maybe something is booked to come off the East Grinstead line and there's a reduced overlap down the reversible at South Croydon or something?
 

Sunset route

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Why don't down tl Horsham trains next stop coulsdon south use the slow reversible ie platform 5 rather than 6 at east Croydon to save the slow crawl over the 20 points at south Croydon

Often nothing using the slow rev

The crawl behind a TL stopper Redhill to Gatwick is also a bit crazy on a non stop train

Most down Horshams use platform 3 at East Croydon and proceed down the fast. Some rush hour ones use the slow - don't know why they don't use the reversible - maybe something is booked to come off the East Grinstead line and there's a reduced overlap down the reversible at South Croydon or something?

I would say it’s all down to the signallers confidence level and how much they are willing to deviate from the program and ad-lib if they can see see obvious benefits for using different lines. Those fresh out of signalling school or are not so bold will stick strictly to the plan, the bold ones will ad-lib, but that does come with the possibility of getting that decision wrong.
 

infobleep

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I would say it’s all down to the signallers confidence level and how much they are willing to deviate from the program and ad-lib if they can see see obvious benefits for using different lines. Those fresh out of signalling school or are not so bold will stick strictly to the plan, the bold ones will ad-lib, but that does come with the possibility of getting that decision wrong.
Perhaps the question them becomes shay is the plan not to use the reversible?
 

Surreytraveller

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Perhaps the question them becomes shay is the plan not to use the reversible?
Perhaps there's an unused pathway that's booked on the Reversible. A signaller wouldn't usually take a train off its booked route for no reason, as uf that decision caused a delay or went wrong, the signaller would get the blame
 

Sunset route

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Perhaps there's an unused pathway that's booked on the Reversible. A signaller wouldn't usually take a train off its booked route for no reason, as uf that decision caused a delay or went wrong, the signaller would get the blame

The pathways through East Croydon are flexible in some respects and not so flexible in others. Platforms 5 and 6 are pretty much interchangeable as long as the Milton Keynes terminator is not around. Also platforms 1 and 2 to a lesser degree are interchangeable as long as the RailAirs are not around in the down direction as all four now pass the (ex Great Northern Down direction 9Sxx & 9Jxx) Thameslink services sitting in platform 3). Using platforms 3 & 4 wrong direction to clear a backlog of trains is virtually impossible now as there is no gap in the apposing service.

I tend to use all down East Grinstead Line trains down 6 all other traffic down 5 apart from the Reigates which catch the 2Jxx London Bridge to Caterhams up at East Croydon. When I use platform 6 for non East Grinstead Line traffic where I can I use the 1st (new crossover) before South Croydon station which is 40mph and no restrictions on the signalling as apposed to the original crossover at South Croydon Junction which is 20mph and with an approach restriction from red on it.

But if there is a queue building then I will alternate the platforms to clear the service as quick as possible with a bias to East Grinstead Line traffic though 6 if I can. None of this you will see on the the official workings but many years of experience will tell you how to get things moving for the best. New staff and those that are not bold or are frighten of possibly being criticised will stick to the exact plan even if there is a queue forming (you can’t get delay minutes attributed to you if you follow the plan even if wrecks the service as the delay will still go down to route cause, but in some cases that’s not so good for the passengers).
 

Surreytraveller

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The pathways through East Croydon are flexible in some respects and not so flexible in others. Platforms 5 and 6 are pretty much interchangeable as long as the Milton Keynes terminator is not around. Also platforms 1 and 2 to a lesser degree are interchangeable as long as the RailAirs are not around in the down direction as all four now pass the (ex Great Northern Down direction 9Sxx & 9Jxx) Thameslink services sitting in platform 3). Using platforms 3 & 4 wrong direction to clear a backlog of trains is virtually impossible now as there is no gap in the apposing service.

I tend to use all down East Grinstead Line trains down 6 all other traffic down 5 apart from the Reigates which catch the 2Jxx London Bridge to Caterhams up at East Croydon. When I use platform 6 for non East Grinstead Line traffic where I can I use the 1st (new crossover) before South Croydon station which is 40mph and no restrictions on the signalling as apposed to the original crossover at South Croydon Junction which is 20mph and with an approach restriction from red on it.

But if there is a queue building then I will alternate the platforms to clear the service as quick as possible with a bias to East Grinstead Line traffic though 6 if I can. None of this you will see on the the official workings but many years of experience will tell you how to get things moving for the best. New staff and those that are not bold or are frighten of possibly being criticised will stick to the exact plan even if there is a queue forming (you can’t get delay minutes attributed to you if you follow the plan even if wrecks the service as the delay will still go down to route cause, but in some cases that’s not so good for the passengers).
And of course, it doesn't get noticed when you do a good job - it only gets noticed if you do a bad job, even if a delay to one train means everything else is on time
 

Railcar

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A similar delay happens these days approaching West Croydon. A train will have barely left Waddon on the Up before it slows again for T36. The delays vary and some drivers try to judge it with a slow crawl rather than coming to a stop. Is T36 a controlled signal or automatic?
 

Sunset route

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A similar delay happens these days approaching West Croydon. A train will have barely left Waddon on the Up before it slows again for T36. The delays vary and some drivers try to judge it with a slow crawl rather than coming to a stop. Is T36 a controlled signal or automatic?

T36 is a controlled signal and when it set it is usually set into restrictive overlap for T30 to allow trains into and out of the bay platform (platform 1) whilst a train approaches from Sutton direction. If full overlap were to be used then it would prevent the use of the bay (a) until the arriving train has approached, stopped and then departed or (b) train has approached, stopped on a red and then the overlap allowed timed out.

Whilst T36 is set into restrictive overlap it is approached controlled from red, this allows a much shorter (reduced) overlap to apply to T30 as the approaching train speed has been reduced thus allowing what would normally be a conflicting move to take place in what what normally be the full overlap.
 

387star

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The pathways through East Croydon are flexible in some respects and not so flexible in others. Platforms 5 and 6 are pretty much interchangeable as long as the Milton Keynes terminator is not around. Also platforms 1 and 2 to a lesser degree are interchangeable as long as the RailAirs are not around in the down direction as all four now pass the (ex Great Northern Down direction 9Sxx & 9Jxx) Thameslink services sitting in platform 3). Using platforms 3 & 4 wrong direction to clear a backlog of trains is virtually impossible now as there is no gap in the apposing service.

I tend to use all down East Grinstead Line trains down 6 all other traffic down 5 apart from the Reigates which catch the 2Jxx London Bridge to Caterhams up at East Croydon. When I use platform 6 for non East Grinstead Line traffic where I can I use the 1st (new crossover) before South Croydon station which is 40mph and no restrictions on the signalling as apposed to the original crossover at South Croydon Junction which is 20mph and with an approach restriction from red on it.

But if there is a queue building then I will alternate the platforms to clear the service as quick as possible with a bias to East Grinstead Line traffic though 6 if I can. None of this you will see on the the official workings but many years of experience will tell you how to get things moving for the best. New staff and those that are not bold or are frighten of possibly being criticised will stick to the exact plan even if there is a queue forming (you can’t get delay minutes attributed to you if you follow the plan even if wrecks the service as the delay will still go down to route cause, but in some cases that’s not so good for the passengers).
Fascinating thanks
 

387star

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I think from a drivers perspective the signals around Croydon are as complex as it gets with many having incredibly poor sight lines and no banner repeaters or a 12 car 700 getting so close to a signal on the up platform 4 the driver can't see it without ducking under

The down horshams are invariably held before Norwood junction for a southern to cross over then again before Croydon

There is also a lot of clutter for instance disused gantries and old disused track between Norwood junction and windmill bridge
 

Sunset route

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I think from a drivers perspective the signals around Croydon are as complex as it gets with many having incredibly poor sight lines and no banner repeaters or a 12 car 700 getting so close to a signal on the up platform 4 the driver can't see it without ducking under

The down horshams are invariably held before Norwood junction for a southern to cross over then again before Croydon

There is also a lot of clutter for instance disused gantries and old disused track between Norwood junction and windmill bridge

There no doubt about this timetable is tight and it’s operating on infrastructure that was designed in the late 70s and built in the early 80s and that includes the signalling.
 

Railcar

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T36 is a controlled signal and when it set it is usually set into restrictive overlap for T30 to allow trains into and out of the bay platform (platform 1) whilst a train approaches from Sutton direction. If full overlap were to be used then it would prevent the use of the bay (a) until the arriving train has approached, stopped and then departed or (b) train has approached, stopped on a red and then the overlap allowed timed out.

Whilst T36 is set into restrictive overlap it is approached controlled from red, this allows a much shorter (reduced) overlap to apply to T30 as the approaching train speed has been reduced thus allowing what would normally be a conflicting move to take place in what what normally be the full overlap.

Thanks.
There has been some work started to restore the centre siding to the west of Wallington Station for use as a turnback. My best guess is that it will be used by Southern for reversals, allowing the West Croydon turnback siding to be used for additional Overgound services from West Croydon. How many additional services will the signalling around West Croydon be able to handle since they will all have to go through Gloucester Road Junction?
 

philthetube

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The signallling sequence from the south already provides a closing up signals with automatic restricted overlaps on a timer if the closing up signals T114, T116, T118 and T120 are at red from T124, T126 and T128 and the full overlap is not available.

Are Closing up signals what would be called draw ups on the Underground, in any case can you please explain what they are for those of us unaware. Cheers.

Draw ups on the underground are speed controlled signals which will not clear until the train is doing less than a specified speed, they ensure that the train does not reach the signal ahead travelling quickly enough to do damage if it spads that signal.
 

Surreytraveller

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There no doubt about this timetable is tight and it’s operating on infrastructure that was designed in the late 70s and built in the early 80s and that includes the signalling.
I think its not so much the timetable is tight, more a case of there's lots of slack, so everything catches up with trains in front. Quite often I'll see the down Horsham sitting in platform 3 at East Croydon for a good two minutes, and the following down Brighton sat outside waiting for the platform.
This is probably a good thing, as it makes the timetable work, whereas previously everything was late all the time and one three-minute delay couldn't be recovered and had knock-on effects
 

infobleep

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I think from a drivers perspective the signals around Croydon are as complex as it gets with many having incredibly poor sight lines and no banner repeaters or a 12 car 700 getting so close to a signal on the up platform 4 the driver can't see it without ducking under

The down horshams are invariably held before Norwood junction for a southern to cross over then again before Croydon

There is also a lot of clutter for instance disused gantries and old disused track between Norwood junction and windmill bridge
What was the disused track used for previously?
 
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