Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Hadders · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
Actually I do know how it works - if flexibility is requires businessmen get advances on several trains, all but one of which then go emptier than they need to.
Just need a booking engine that makes changing reservations easy. You know how you can book a Premier Inn cheap, or pay a bit more with the ability to cancel.....

As for the idea of stations having to close....why would that happen? Everyone would know early whether they can travel or not so aren’t going to be there without a reservation.....rather than take the risk that they can’t even squeeze on a train they thought they had reserved as can happen now.

Tou’re Being too idealistic here. Say i’m Taking a day out from Manchester to London. I might not know exactly what time I’m coming back but I know there are 3 trains an hour. I’ll book a seat for my expected train but if I can’t get that one i’ll take the next one. I won’t have a seat reservation for that train so if necessary i’ll Stand as the train will usually start to empty out after the first few stops.

Under your system what would happen if all the trains that day were fully booked?

RailUK Forums

Meerkat · 26 May 2019

Hadders said:
Under your system what would happen if all the trains that day were fully booked?

The same as happens now if trains are full - it’s just a redefinition of “full”
It means those without reservations don’t ruin the journey for those who have.

F Great Eastern · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
If flexibility is requires businessmen get advances on several trains, all but one of which then go emptier than they need to.

So what you are saying is that companies are paying several advance tickets when an open return ticket is going to be far cheaper? Really? You start to lose all credibility when you resort to making nonsense like this up from your very vivid imagination, because it has no basis on reality.

As for the idea of stations having to close....why would that happen?

I never said that any stations would have to close? Can you please point me in the direction where apparently I have said this, or please stop putting words into my mouth? You are posting in very bad faith and whilst I'm happy to have a reasonable discussion with you, resorting to falsehoods to try and win an argument is pathetic.

Everyone would know early whether they can travel or not so aren’t going to be there without a reservation.....rather than take the risk that they can’t even squeeze on a train they thought they had reserved as can happen now.

This has happened to me once in about 10 years of traveling by rail for business. The amount of times I would be inconvenienced by losing flexibility is far higher than this. I'll repeat again, that business value flexibility, however much leisure passengers don't agree with that, they're not living in the real world and clearly have very little experience in traveling for business.

I'd love to know what your idea is for airport tickets as well if everyone needs a reservation, bearing in mind Intercity trains also call at airports on the West Coast line, among others and that nobody out of Stansted would ever be able to get on a Cross Country service out of there either, as these are frequently overcrowded and people would just revert to using another method.[/quote]

F Great Eastern · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
The same as happens now if trains are full - it’s just a redefinition of “full”

No - now people have an option of boarding or not.

It means those without reservations don’t ruin the journey for those who have.

And there we have it, the leisure passenger buying bargain basement fares thinking the whole system should be structured around them, in a bugger you jack, I'm alright way.

Hadders · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
The same as happens now if trains are full - it’s just a redefinition of “full”
It means those without reservations don’t ruin the journey for those who have.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Me and 3 friendsfriends are doing a walk from Sheffield to Bamford in a few weeks time. We’re coming from different parts of the country, will meet at Sheffield, walk to Bamford, get the train to Sheffield for connecting trains home.

We hope to get the 17:42 from Bamford allowing us to get trains from around 18:15 from Sheffield but if our walk takes longer than expected (or we finish quicker than anticipated) then our plans will change.

Under your plans we simply couldn’t undertake a trip like this if there was a risk of us not being able to travel on a later train than planned.

This is just a simple example of the huge issues your proposal would cause.

AM9 · 26 May 2019

Hadders said:
We will have to agree to disagree.

Me and 3 friendsfriends are doing a walk from Sheffield to Bamford in a few weeks time. We’re coming from different parts of the country, will meet at Sheffield, walk to Bamford, get the train to Sheffield for connecting trains home.

We hope to get the 17:42 from Bamford allowing us to get trains from around 18:15 from Sheffield but if our walk takes longer than expected (or we finish quicker than anticipated) then our plans will change.

Under your plans we simply couldn’t undertake a trip like this if there was a risk of us not being able to travel on a later train than planned.

This is just a simple example of the huge issues your proposal would cause.

Maybe Meerkat could enlighten us as to what rail journeys he/she mostly makes, including where, when and on what type of ticket is used.

JamesRowden · 26 May 2019

Perhaps one half of the train could be reservation only, and the other half unreserved. The reserved half would be advance tickets only. The unreserved would be classic anytime and time restricted off-peak tickets only. This allows the passenger to pick which system is optimum for them. Specific season tickets could be made available for each system.

gsnedders · 26 May 2019

JamesRowden said:
Perhaps one half of the train could be reservation only, and the other half unreserved. The reserved half would be advance tickets only. The unreserved would be classic anytime and time restricted off-peak tickets only. This allows the passenger to pick which system is optimum for them. Specific season tickets could be made available for each system.

Trying to model all of this in the current ticketing system is unrealistic; this is in response to ticketing reform, therefore restricting yourself to the current rules about existing ticket types is irrelevant.

How this works in other countries where all intercity is specified-train-only is you have two or three bands of ticket: roughly one where you have no ability to refund/change/exchange the ticket (cheapest, but also the most rare; we have nothing so strict in the UK), one where you can get a refund/exchange prior to the departure time for a fee plus any difference in fare (minus the ability to refund, this is essentially the current Advance), and one where you can get a refund/exchange free of charge typically up until end of day on the day of departure (this is essentially the same as an Anytime ticket just with a reservation required).

And yes, having mandatory reservations does make things awkward for business travel if the goal is to get the first train possible on routes where standees are common and therefore a train with 100% reserved seats would be common and the next train wouldn't be in 20 minutes, and that really shows there's problems with capacity on the route (because really, who wants to be standing on an intercity service?).

6Gman · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
Standing on commuter services is not the same as standing on inter city services.
Shorter duration, doors open more often, far less luggage, far more organised and understanding (possibly defeated is a better word!) passengers, fewer kids and old folk.
Long distance services should be reservation only, even if that includes a sensible number of short standing reservations for commuters .

So I'm not allowed to decide to have a day out in London at short notice?

gsnedders · 26 May 2019

6Gman said:
So I'm not allowed to decide to have a day out in London at short notice?

What part of that implies you're not allowed to? Plenty of other places in Europe have plenty of people taking days out on reservation compulsory trains, you simply get a reservation at the point of buying the ticket at short notice…

6Gman · 26 May 2019

Meerkat said:
The same as happens now if trains are full - it’s just a redefinition of “full”
It means those without reservations don’t ruin the journey for those who have.

How does standing in the vestibule "ruin the journey" for people sitting in their reserved seats?

6Gman · 26 May 2019

gsnedders said:
What part of that implies you're not allowed to? Plenty of other places in Europe have plenty of people taking days out on reservation compulsory trains, you simply get a reservation at the point of buying the ticket at short notice…

So the technology will allow me to reserve a seat at (e.g.) Crewe on a train that set out from Euston or Edinburgh 2-3hrs earlier?

radamfi · 26 May 2019

6Gman said:
So the technology will allow me to reserve a seat at (e.g.) Crewe on a train that set out from Euston or Edinburgh 2-3hrs earlier?

On TGVs and Eurostar, there is no need to have reservation displays so can't see why reservations couldn't be made in real time during the journey.

6Gman · 26 May 2019

radamfi said:
On TGVs and Eurostar, there is no need to have reservation displays so can't see why reservations can be made in real time during the journey.

OK.

So my wife and I turn up at Crewe station at 0945 wanting a day out. We shuffle to the front of the queue in the booking office. "Any seats on the 1001 to Birmingham, and then on the 1134 to Cheltenham?" we ask. So the Clerk presses various buttons and says "Sorry - ok on the 1001, but not on the 1134. What do you want to do?" "What about Oxford?" Couple of minutes of further button pressing. "No, can't do that either." "Right, what about the 1009 to Carlisle?" "Er, can get you to Lancaster, but not onward." "Well, what if we stand from Lancaster? Happy to stand by the window to enjoy the view." "Sorry, not allowed." And so we can spend twenty minutes going backwards and forwards through the options.

OR

We can just get on the train and sit if there are vacant seats, and stand if there aren't ...

gsnedders · 26 May 2019

6Gman said:
So the technology will allow me to reserve a seat at (e.g.) Crewe on a train that set out from Euston or Edinburgh 2-3hrs earlier?

That's the situation in most (all?) places with compulsory reservations, yes, you can get a reservation right up until the point of departure.

radamfi said:
On TGVs and Eurostar, there is no need to have reservation displays so can't see why reservations couldn't be made in real time during the journey.

Hell, I remember travelling on a compulsory reservation train somewhere twenty years ago where the answer was "go to the guard when it pulls into the platform and ask if there's space" (this can't have been a particularly long train, I presume!), and then got told "yes", and directed onboard and to wait by the door they were dispatching from, and then they went into their office, pulled out a printed copy of the reservations for the train, found us appropriate seats for our destination, and amended the printed copy! I can't exactly suggest that approach, but it's interesting historical context.

al78 · 26 May 2019

6Gman said:
How does standing in the vestibule "ruin the journey" for people sitting in their reserved seats?

If you want to access the shop or the toilet, it can be more difficult with a load of people in the way that you have to squeeze past (twice), so maybe inconvenient but not "ruin the journey".

pt_mad · 27 May 2019

Seeing as this thread relates to the West Coast franchise specifically, perhaps one route could be singled out where this could make some sense: Hourly fast services between London Euston and Glasgow Central on the section between Warrington and London, where there are no stops.

Whether anyone would consider a full and standing train with no room for moving acceptable within that section is a matter for debate.

Other than that route, there's quite a reasonable justification for arguing that services are fairly commuter loaded for a decent amount of the time, excluding weekend off peak.

Perhaps as passengers, we should review our own expectations and lower the standards we expect. I for one would bank on a seat if taking the family out on a long distance day out for leisure. Who would actually sit at home the night before imagining a situation where you're standing in a Voyager vestible for over an hour? Probably not. However the reality can be a disappointment to some who don't bank on standing or who are under the illusion that standing is either unsafe or unacceptable or think that they have paid for a seat.

Worth noting is that standing seems more acceptable from a visual perspective on trains that have doors within the central saloons rather than end intercity vestibles.
For example, i would feel more comfortable standing within the aisle of a TPE 350 than I would in a Voyager vestible. There are windows, and the environment and grab bars suggest the train has standing as a core element of its design. And there are places to look instead of walls.
The Javelin 395 looks more suited to standing than a class 800 does, because of central door openings. Standing passengers are not excluded to end vestibles, out of the way with no windows, where it looks like they probably aren't supposed to ideally be. Even though it's fine.

Refurbs which bring grab bars to train interiors as well as new designs featuring central doors on routes where standing is likely, might go some way to altering passenger expectations and phychology related to standing.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

6Gman said:
How does standing in the vestibule "ruin the journey" for people sitting in their reserved seats?

Because people in the middle of the carriage panic about whether they will be able to get off or miss their stop.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

F Great Eastern said:
No - now people have an option of boarding or not.

And there we have it, the leisure passenger buying bargain basement fares thinking the whole system should be structured around them, in a bugger you jack, I'm alright way.

What has it got to do with leisure passengers? What about the business passenger who has booked their seat planning to get some work done then reservations are cancelled and they are crush loaded standing up.
People are booking something and not getting it - that isn’t acceptable.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

F Great Eastern said:
So what you are saying is that companies are paying several advance tickets when an open return ticket is going to be far cheaper? Really? You start to lose all credibility when you resort to making nonsense like this up from your very vivid imagination, because it has no basis on reality.

I never said that any stations would have to close? Can you please point me in the direction where apparently I have said this, or please stop putting words into my mouth? You are posting in very bad faith and whilst I'm happy to have a reasonable discussion with you, resorting to falsehoods to try and win an argument is pathetic.

This has happened to me once in about 10 years of traveling by rail for business. The amount of times I would be inconvenienced by losing flexibility is far higher than this. I'll repeat again, that business value flexibility, however much leisure passengers don't agree with that, they're not living in the real world and clearly have very little experience in traveling for business.

I'd love to know what your idea is for airport tickets as well if everyone needs a reservation, bearing in mind Intercity trains also call at airports on the West Coast line, among others and that nobody out of Stansted would ever be able to get on a Cross Country service out of there either, as these are frequently overcrowded and people would just revert to using another method.

[/QUOTE]

So why do businesses book multiple tickets, because they definitely do it. Must be to guarantee a seat. And book far enough in advance and it is cheaper than an open ticket.
You are a very angry man, throwing insults about. I didn’t quote you as saying stations were close...it was a response to a different posting.
You are assuming the Stansted service would count as intercity. The current service wouldn’t IMO.

The current system hides the problems with unacceptable conditions on trains.change the system and it will be easier to make a case for capacity improvements

VT 390 · 27 May 2019

Meerkat said:
Because people in the middle of the carriage panic about whether they will be able to get off or miss their stop.

The solution to this is to get up with plenty of time to get off at your station.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

VT 390 said:
The solution to this is to get up with plenty of time to get off at your station.

How does a ‘normal’ know when that would be?
It is unacceptable for some old dear to have to fight their way down a crowded corridor with luggage.
The fear of that sort of thing will lose more business than the people who refuse to plan ahead.

F Great Eastern · 27 May 2019

Meerkat said:
What has it got to do with leisure passengers? What about the business passenger who has booked their seat planning to get some work done then reservations are cancelled and they are crush loaded standing up. People are booking something and not getting it - that isn’t acceptable.

Oh would you stop it with your red herrings and your strawman arguments, if a train is late so reservation slips are put in or the reservation system fails that is going to happen with or without compulsory reservations.

You have no idea how the business market works, you have demonstrated that many times over.

F Great Eastern · 27 May 2019

So why do businesses book multiple tickets, because they definitely do it.[/quote]

I don't know any business that allows this and I've worked in 3 different companies where I've travelled for work and all of my friends who do the same in other companies are always told to buy an open ticket The only people who are doing this must either have some odd reason to burn cash quite quickly, or they have more money than sense.

Must be to guarantee a seat. And book far enough in advance and it is cheaper than an open ticket.

You're really not getting how business works do you? Most business trips are not booked very far in advance at all, and I have never come across a situation yet, during the day during the week where it has been cheaper to buy multiple advances. The very rare time I've seen this is at weekends or at times that are so off-peak they can be called super off peak. And the trains have plenty of space at these times anyway.

You are assuming the Stansted service would count as intercity. The current service wouldn’t IMO.

I was using Cross Country as an example of pretty long distance services that wouldn't work with your model. The other very obvious ones is Virgin Train services up the West Coast which call at Birmingham International, that wouldn't work with your system without turning huge numbers of airport passengers away.

The current system hides the problems with unacceptable conditions on trains.change the system and it will be easier to make a case for capacity improvements

If you want to ban standing then the average train's yield will suffer which will mean that the extra capacity will need to be funded by ticket price rises.

F Great Eastern · 27 May 2019

Meerkat said:
Because people in the middle of the carriage panic about whether they will be able to get off or miss their stop.

How do people manage on the Tube, which is vastly more crowded at peak time than any proper train and how do they deal on trams and metros all over the world?

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

F Great Eastern said:
How do people manage on the Tube, which is vastly more crowded at peak time than any proper train and how do they deal on trams and metros all over the world?

There is regular churn on those, and they have wider gangways - they are built for standing passengers.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

F Great Eastern said:
I don't know any business that allows this and I've worked in 3 different companies where I've travelled for work and all of my friends who do the same in other companies are always told to buy an open ticket The only people who are doing this must either have some odd reason to burn cash quite quickly, or they have more money than sense.

So who is booking all the unused reservations then?
Open ticket and movable reservation seems to be the obvious solution to your problem.

F Great Eastern · 27 May 2019

Meerkat said:
There is regular churn on those, and they have wider gangways - they are built for standing passengers.

The Deep Tube stock is narrower than a regular train and standing is far worse than on a normal train because of the profile of the roof, many people have to spend a lot of the time with their head ducked.

F Great Eastern · 27 May 2019

Meerkat said:
So who is booking all the unused reservations then?
Open ticket and movable reservation seems to be the obvious solution to your problem.

People who can't be bothered to find their seat they reserved and just sit in any unreserved seat that they can find - there's a lot of these people, believe it or not.

Although a moment ago you were saying these trains were very full and therefore standing should be banned, now you are saying that there are lots of seats that are reserved but not being used.

So essentially what you are saying for you want to leave people stranded at the platform whilst by your own admission, there are unused seat reservations. That's just barmy.

Have you ever heard of a Taxi? Perhaps it might be a better mode of transport for you.

Meerkat · 27 May 2019

F Great Eastern said:
The Deep Tube stock is narrower than a regular train and standing is far worse than on a normal train because of the profile of the roof, many people have to spend a lot of the time with their head ducked.

I am 6’ 3” - tell me about it!! :'(

Still easier to stay by and get back to the door (but worrying sometimes when people are already piling on before you have barged your way out....)

Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member