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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Bletchleyite

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The only units on which I've seen a sensible design and size of bin is the 350/3s where they are quite a large, vertical item by the doors.

The ones you get more often, typically hidden between seats, are impossible to put a tea bag in without dripping tea all over the place.
 
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Bantamzen

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Went to Gatley this morning to see some of the 195's running services, things today seemed more smoother, the doors opened without issue and all were running on time


195114 at Gatley on a service to Manchester Airport from Barrow-in-Furness


Northern 195114
by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

195120 passing Gatley on a service to Liverpool Lime Street


Northern 195120
by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

Great shots again! I'm hoping to catch one of these tomorrow on my way to Warrington.
 

Boysteve

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eah, if I had to nit pick there is a small bin in the bog and a tiny one in the carriage. Replacing double 156's with a three car unit seems a retrograde step. Today the none 195 service from Lime Street to the airport is a 156 and a 150. Admittedly an improvement on the single 142 on an airport service the other week. Someone in charge has to get a grip.

Many times 142s are on the CLC airport services with 156s on the stoppers, work that out!!!!!!!!!!!!
However with 4 x 2 car 156s supposedly 'released' from CLC airport services it does seem strange that they cannot find 2 units for today's none-195 diagram.
 
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fowler9

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The only units on which I've seen a sensible design and size of bin is the 350/3s where they are quite a large, vertical item by the doors.

The ones you get more often, typically hidden between seats, are impossible to put a tea bag in without dripping tea all over the place.
The bins on the 195's are comical though.
 

geoffk

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I had an on-time run from Manchester Oxford Rd to Wigan at 1351, intending to return on the 1424 (ex Windermere) but this turned out to be a 156. It was interesting to see how the seats on the 195 were fixed to the train wall, rather than the floor, by means of a diagonal strut.

Earlier I was at Urmston and noticed, at the leading end of each platform, a Stop board with the wording "class 195/331". Is there something they're not telling us? I think it will be a while before we see 331s on this line (!) and the MIA - Liverpool service doesn't stop at Urmston. Maybe there is a plan for it to stop, as the performance of the 195s would allow running times to be reduced. Urmston has 375,000 users a year, according to the ORR figures, and other stations with similar usage get three trains an hour. There does seem to be a bias against giving Greater Manchester stations an airport service.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not Ringway again! :)

It certainly used to be the case that one of the fasts stopped there in the peak, that may still be so. It might also be in case of disruption.
 

Boysteve

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Earlier I was at Urmston and noticed, at the leading end of each platform, a Stop board with the wording "class 195/331". Is there something they're not telling us? I think it will be a while before we see 331s on this line (!) and the MIA - Liverpool service doesn't stop at Urmston. Maybe there is a plan for it to stop, as the performance of the 195s would allow running times to be reduced.
This is probably for the early morning/evening services. For example, the 06:13 Liverpool - Wilmslow calls at Urmston and is a 195 already!

P.S; It looked very cosy on the 17:13 from Oxford Road tonight (16:45 MIA-LIV). This service is usually a very full 4-car 156 when it leaves Oxford Road and was supposed to be upgraded to 6-car 195. However the availability issues meant only a single 3-car 195 was available.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think the full CLC service has airport trains interworking with Oxford Road stoppers.
So if they keep the same diagrams 195s will eventually appear on stoppers.
 

driver_m

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I can't see the point in putting 195s on Airport-Liverpool at this stage, tbh. 156s are a perfectly good train so if a double 156 proves satisfactory on the route for the most part, what's the point in upsetting the apple cart? Yes, we know, sometimes trains would be short-formed, but if we're going to knock four-car trains down to three-car as a matter of course then they're effectively going to be short-formed all the time. Or, of course, we can increase four-car trains to six-car and then short-form the six-car trains (see post #2017).

Not to mention, if you introduce new stock on to two routes instead of one, it increases (I'm not saying doubles) the amount of immediate staff training required! I don't always follow the logic of how railways operate, sorry.

Why not introduce 3-car 195s on to routes that it has always been intended should get them (I, personally, can only guess as to which those are), and wait until some 2-car 195s are available before worrying about Liverpool-Airport semi-fasts? Then you could replace a four-car 156 set with a four-car 195 set, or, if you want a bit of extra capacity, replace a four-car 156 set with a 2-car 195/3-car 195 combination. To increase a four-car set to a six car set but to then immediately short-form it as a three-car set seems a bit counter-productive, to me.

It’s Liverpool Depot’s core route, so it probably benefits the widest possible number of opportunities to train your staff on it if they all sign that route.
 

Bovverboy

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I think the full CLC service has airport trains interworking with Oxford Road stoppers.
So if they keep the same diagrams 195s will eventually appear on stoppers.

No, they don't interwork at all, sorry. A handful of the CLC semi-fasts do make additional calls, but they are still part of the semi-fast circuit, they're additional to the (for most of the time) half-hourly service of stoppers. For instance the 0709 Lime Street to Oxford Road stops Widnes and Irlam, the 1850 Airport to Lime Street stops Widnes, and the 2148 Airport to Lime Street stops Sankey and Widnes. All the foregoing Mondays to Saturdays - there may be others. The 1850 and 2148 ex-Airport are already scheduled for 195s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think @Bletchleyite may have a hair-trigger that was set off by the word "airport" in the previous post. :(

He's probably right that taking the conversation in that direction is not for this thread, though.

It was just a casual expression of despair at the idea that everybody seems to want a direct service to the place most people go maybe once a year at the expense of a proper service to somewhere they go every day (Manchester city centre). I'd love a direct train to Ee'throw, Luton or Gatwick from Bletchley (I do have one to Brum but it's less useful), but I wouldn't support it if it even required one existing service to lose 4 coaches, let alone if it made a mess of the timetable as it does around the North.

In any case, it's not really on topic for this thread so probably not sensible to continue it here.
 

Boysteve

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Just had a chat with a Lime Street guard.
He says give me a Pacer any day.
There is too much that can go wrong on the 195s. The thing is run by computer he says,and computers can go wrong.
He went on to say,Pacers always get bad press but I have worked on them for many years with very little fault.
Although the 195s look smart he admitted.
They are besieged with niggles as they have been rushed into service!!!!
Not my words lol.
But I chuckled at his last statement

So Pacers do not go wrong because, like an East German Trabant, their is hardly anything to go wrong!

Seriously though, this comment from the guard is an extremely sad indictment on the lack of investment the Northern franchise has seen. Every DMU in service with Northern (until the 170s started to transfer from Scotland) is basically 1980's BR technology. That Lime Street Guard may well have spent his entire working life on such ex-BR 1980's technology! Most other staff on other franchises have had at least one upgrade during that time.
*One curious exception until recently of course would have been LNER with it's 1970s and 1980s models. However, unlike the average Pacer they have received high quality TLC and refurb'.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It was just a casual expression of despair at the idea that everybody seems to want a direct service to the place most people go maybe once a year at the expense of a proper service to somewhere they go every day (Manchester city centre).

If the passenger footfall figures there are based upon what you say they are above (I have emboldened the statement in question), then there surely must be some discrepancy in the annual passenger published official figures. Can I ask for your comment on this observation, as you only appear to assume leisure travel use and ignore the business users.
 
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TEW

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The only units on which I've seen a sensible design and size of bin is the 350/3s where they are quite a large, vertical item by the doors.

The ones you get more often, typically hidden between seats, are impossible to put a tea bag in without dripping tea all over the place.
Best bins of train imo are on the SWR 455/456s. Two massive bins with a nice big opening in each vestibule. They take the same size bin bags that you would see attached to a hoop on a platform. Tiny bins or bins that are too hard to actually get anything in to are just pointless.
 

ashkeba

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Does anyone else think the bins are not very good? Tiny opening, and hard to find! Can barely fit a hot drink cup in them lol.
We're clearly meant to use reusable drink cups, you environmental terrorist! ;)
 

Chris217

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So Pacers do not go wrong because, like an East German Trabant, their is hardly anything to go wrong!

Seriously though, this comment from the guard is an extremely sad indictment on the lack of investment the Northern franchise has seen. Every DMU in service with Northern (until the 170s started to transfer from Scotland) is basically 1980's BR technology. That Lime Street Guard may well have spent his entire working life on such ex-BR 1980's technology! Most other staff on other franchises have had at least one upgrade during that time.
*One curious exception until recently of course would have been LNER with it's 1970s and 1980s models. However, unlike the average Pacer they have received high quality TLC and refurb'.


I'm sure the Pacers have had plenty of TLC over the years by those who look after them lol.

One thing that sticks in my head though is
If reliability is pretty good,why try and fix something that isn't broken?
Thats when the politics comes in!

Surely there are even older trains running elsewhere in the world in worse condition that are also not DDA compliant.
Perhaps different disability rules apply...or not!
 

LeylandLen

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I had an on-time run from Manchester Oxford Rd to Wigan at 1351, intending to return on the 1424 (ex Windermere) but this turned out to be a 156. It was interesting to see how the seats on the 195 were fixed to the train wall, rather than the floor, by means of a diagonal strut.
the change LUGGAGE
Earlier I was at Urmston and noticed, at the leading end ee 331s on this line (!) and the MIA - Liverpool service doesn't stop at Urmston. Maybe there is a plan for it to stop, as the performance of the 195s would allow running times to be reduced. Urmston has 375,000 users a year, according to the ORR figures, and other stations with similar usage get three trains an hour. There does seem to be a bias against giving Greater Manchester stations an airport service.

I used the 1306 Windermere via Wigan (1424) to Man Picc on Tuesday , 195121 .The user above says it was a 156 on Thursday.
Anyone know why the change of DMU ? Did the 156 do the circuit for the 195 , ? Incidentally 195 121 looked good parked at Windermere ; overseas visitors going to MIA , were impressed.Plenty of space for luggage etc
 

61653 HTAFC

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Another planet...
I had an on-time run from Manchester Oxford Rd to Wigan at 1351, intending to return on the 1424 (ex Windermere) but this turned out to be a 156. It was interesting to see how the seats on the 195 were fixed to the train wall, rather than the floor, by means of a diagonal strut.

Earlier I was at Urmston and noticed, at the leading end of each platform, a Stop board with the wording "class 195/331". Is there something they're not telling us? I think it will be a while before we see 331s on this line (!) and the MIA - Liverpool service doesn't stop at Urmston. Maybe there is a plan for it to stop, as the performance of the 195s would allow running times to be reduced. Urmston has 375,000 users a year, according to the ORR figures, and other stations with similar usage get three trains an hour. There does seem to be a bias against giving Greater Manchester stations an airport service.
Stop boards with train types on them won't necessarily indicate what will actually run there. Brighouse has stop boards for class 67+Mk5a but they'll only run through on diversion and presumably won't all stop there when they do.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No, they don't interwork at all, sorry. A handful of the CLC semi-fasts do make additional calls, but they are still part of the semi-fast circuit, they're additional to the (for most of the time) half-hourly service of stoppers. For instance the 0709 Lime Street to Oxford Road stops Widnes and Irlam, the 1850 Airport to Lime Street stops Widnes, and the 2148 Airport to Lime Street stops Sankey and Widnes. All the foregoing Mondays to Saturdays - there may be others. The 1850 and 2148 ex-Airport are already scheduled for 195s.

Well put it this way, I have seen incoming Airport services at Lime St head out on Oxford Road stoppers, when they were the same mix of 142/150/156.
Maybe it was during the not infrequent disruption.
I can understand them normally being separate.
 

Mathew S

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I'm sure the Pacers have had plenty of TLC over the years by those who look after them lol.

One thing that sticks in my head though is
If reliability is pretty good,why try and fix something that isn't broken?
Thats when the politics comes in!

Surely there are even older trains running elsewhere in the world in worse condition that are also not DDA compliant.
Perhaps different disability rules apply...or not!
Older and less accessible trains than the Pacers, with the exception perhaps of the old Caledonian Sleeper trains, I think would be hard to find. Accessibility regulations or not, the Pacers really are beyond the end of their useful lives and need replacing.
I used the 1306 Windermere via Wigan (1424) to Man Picc on Tuesday , 195121 .The user above says it was a 156 on Thursday.
Anyone know why the change of DMU ? Did the 156 do the circuit for the 195 , ? Incidentally 195 121 looked good parked at Windermere ; overseas visitors going to MIA , were impressed.Plenty of space for luggage etc
Three (we think) 195s were out of service yesterday with faults. At least two of the Barrow/Windermere diagrams were worked by 156s instead of 195s.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The only units on which I've seen a sensible design and size of bin is the 350/3s where they are quite a large, vertical item by the doors. The ones you get more often, typically hidden between seats, are impossible to put a tea bag in without dripping tea all over the place.

Recent postings on this thread about the provided bins makes me wonder if Northern would have approved of such bin sizes when they fully read the unit specifications.

Nonetheless, there was a media advert many years ago....."Take your litter home with you".
 

Mathew S

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Taken as a mean average, what is the current bodyshell condition of the Angel Trains Class 142 units in service with Northern?
Let's put it this way, when it rains you don't take your coat off because there's as much chance of getting rained on inside a Pacer as there is outside.
 

Boysteve

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Three (we think) 195s were out of service yesterday with faults. At least two of the Barrow/Windermere diagrams were worked by 156s instead of 195s.
I agree three went missing yesterday. However today we have the 6car 195 back on the CLC peak services so things must be better!
 
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