London Bridge shortlisted for award

43096 · 20 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
It is quite simple: follow the signs to the numbered platforms. If you cant follow those just ask someone official. If you cant manage alone book assistance

New street is 10000000000000 times better than is used to be. It is, despite what experts here think, easy to use. Just like london bridge.

And no, you cant see the platforms at new street because (like they always have been) they are hidden under a massive concrete floor.......

I used London Bridge today for the first time since it was fully re-opened and have to say it was a massive improvement on what was there before.

New Street on the other hand, I have to disagree with you about it. It is a shambolic mess, particularly the daft lounge system and the even dafter way you cannot get from some platforms to others without going through the barriers. I am usually pretty good at getting to grips with large stations (I've even managed Zurich Hbf with its four groups of platforms), but New Street is completely illogical and stupidly designed. Like the city it is in, it really just needs obliterating and starting again.

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Dr Hoo · 20 Jul 2019

43096 said:
I used London Bridge today for the first time since it was fully re-opened and have to say it was a massive improvement on what was there before.

New Street on the other hand, I have to disagree with you about it. It is a shambolic mess, particularly the daft lounge system and the even dafter way you cannot get from some platforms to others without going through the barriers. I am usually pretty good at getting to grips with large stations (I've even managed Zurich Hbf with its four groups of platforms), but New Street is completely illogical and stupidly designed. Like the city it is in, it really just needs obliterating and starting again.

Both London Bridge and Birmingham New Street essentially have a lot of parallel long-ish platforms. (Yes, i know that there is bay 4C at New Street as well.)
Both stations have a means of interchanging between all platforms within the barriered area. (At New Street this is via the 'B' end, as extensively signposted and announced on many arriving trains.)
Both stations have been designed round the concept of keeping platforms as clear as possible by encouraging passengers to wait on a different level until their train is due (rather than having an 'hour's-worth' scrum of anxious intending travellers standing around bereft of refreshments, toilets, etc. un-necessarily).
The 'different level' is below the platforms at London Bridge and above them at New Street (i.e. the lounges). Within the obvious limitations of a busy public space these are reasonable places to wait, obtain refreshments or use other station facilities. (Pity about the single set of toilets at London Bridge.)
Both stations have extensive provision of departure indicators both inside and outside the barriered area.
Both stations now have far more entrances/exits in relation to their communities meaning that it is now usually much quicker to get to or from where your business is if you are not just using the station for interchange.
What is shambolic, illogical or stupid about any of these features?

43096 · 20 Jul 2019

Dr Hoo said:
Both London Bridge and Birmingham New Street essentially have a lot of parallel long-ish platforms. (Yes, i know that there is bay 4C at New Street as well.)
Both stations have a means of interchanging between all platforms within the barriered area. (At New Street this is via the 'B' end, as extensively signposted and announced on many arriving trains.)
Both stations have been designed round the concept of keeping platforms as clear as possible by encouraging passengers to wait on a different level until their train is due (rather than having an 'hour's-worth' scrum of anxious intending travellers standing around bereft of refreshments, toilets, etc. un-necessarily).
The 'different level' is below the platforms at London Bridge and above them at New Street (i.e. the lounges). Within the obvious limitations of a busy public space these are reasonable places to wait, obtain refreshments or use other station facilities. (Pity about the single set of toilets at London Bridge.)
Both stations have extensive provision of departure indicators both inside and outside the barriered area.
Both stations now have far more entrances/exits in relation to their communities meaning that it is now usually much quicker to get to of from where your business is if you are not just using the station for interchange.
What is shambolic, illogical or stupid about any of these features?

New Street is shambolic, stupid and illogical in the way that only the B end bridge has access from all platforms to all platforms. What that means is that passengers from a train at the A end have to walk down the platform to the B end, past passengers going the other way. Result, platforms become crowded with cross-flows of passengers. It is an utterly moronic layout.

It is meant to be one of the biggest interchange stations in the country, yet one end/half of the station effectively doesn't serve that purpose. The platforms are still dark, dingy, depressing and too small. After all the money thrown at it, it still isn't fit for purpose, and is arguably worse than it was before. And it is still a complete cesspit.

London Bridge, on the other hand, is a huge improvement.

Dr Hoo · 20 Jul 2019

Probably need to continue this on a re-activated old 'New Street' thread but the layout there becomes completely logical if you think about it from the perspective of passengers who start or finish their journey at New Street - a large proportion. Discounting the Navigation Street 'fire escape' bridge, every door to the station provides access to and from the main concourse. This includes the main access to and from the massive Bull Ring shopping complex and Moor Street station as well as other parts of the city centre.
If the 'A' end operated as a single unit this would not be possible.

Given the constraints of the site, the platforms could never be any larger. They have, of course, been de-cluttered as far as possible.

Then people wonder why HS2 is being built to a new station...

FOH · 20 Jul 2019

Clip said:
So what is so bad about it then? You cant just shrug and say its bad and not give detail?

Frickin freezing in winter everywhere, the wind howls through the platforms and concourse
1 lift for 6 platforms and only a 1 in 3 chance you then won't have to do a massive u turn for the platform you need
Similarly windswept bus station
The high level platforms concourse is so deep if you aren't lucky enough to have the sole escalator going upwards it's a breathtaking stair climb (did i mention only 1 lift?)
Most retail units are still to open, 2 years after platforms completion
I reckon a good 30% of concourse entrance doors are roped off ugly style as they're broken
The platform canopies are so high you get rained on or snowed in when it's windy
They closed down Burger King for this

I'll accept disruption is back to pre-rebuild but overall journey times are longer. It's a rare day it doesn't take trains 20mins from Forest Hill to London Bridge when it's usually 14 mins going the other way.

mmh · 20 Jul 2019

FOH said:
Similarly windswept bus station

Sadly the bus station and Shard concourse will always be windswept - the Shard itself means it can be windy at the base of it while 100 yards away it's calm.

Clip · 21 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
Especially if there is a last minute platform alteration....

Indeed

FOH said:
They closed down Burger King for this

says it all really

Mikey C · 22 Jul 2019

Bald Rick said:
What is the problem with the toilets? I’ve never had a problem with them. Seem good to me.

Far too small, there are always queues outside the ladies especially.

None on the other side of the barriers, when previously they existed on the through platforms. But they have bizarrely provided a branch of Oliver Bonas instead

ijmad · 22 Jul 2019

Mikey C said:
Far too small, there are always queues outside the ladies especially.

None on the other side of the barriers, when previously they existed on the through platforms. But they have bizarrely provided a branch of Oliver Bonas instead

There was an Oliver Bonas in the previous version of the station too. It was in the Western Arcade.

Agree on the toilets, I wonder if making them all free has resulted in a surge in volume. Perhaps all the big terminals are going to see new toilet facilities now they have no way to moderate demand.

Ianno87 · 22 Jul 2019

FOH said:
Frickin freezing in winter everywhere, the wind howls through the platforms and concourse

Winter generally tends to be cold, as a rule of thumb.

The high level platforms concourse is so deep if you aren't lucky enough to have the sole escalator going upwards it's a breathtaking stair climb (did i mention only 1 lift?)

The concourse its so deep its exactly level with the surrounding streets and exit from the tube station. The vertical distance to mount hasn't changed (just in one chunk mot two)

DarloRich · 22 Jul 2019

43096 said:
New Street on the other hand, I have to disagree with you about it. It is a shambolic mess, particularly the daft lounge system and the even dafter way you cannot get from some platforms to others without going through the barriers. I am usually pretty good at getting to grips with large stations (I've even managed Zurich Hbf with its four groups of platforms), but New Street is completely illogical and stupidly designed. Like the city it is in, it really just needs obliterating and starting again.

My mum, who is not a regular users of trains that require a change, recently used New Street a couple of times and found it very pleasant and easy to use for such a large and busy station. She said it was very straightforward, that the colour coding helped her find her way and said that it was more like an airport than a station.

She was very impressed, I think, because she had been a bit worried that navigating such a large & busy station with her luggage might be hard. It wasn't.

Ianno87 · 22 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
My mum, who is not a regular users of trains that require a change, recently used New Street a couple of times and found it very pleasant and easy to use for such a large and busy station. She said it was very straightforward, that the colour coding helped her find her way and said that it was more like an airport than a station.

She was very impressed, I think, because she had been a bit worried that navigating such a large & busy station with her luggage might be hard. It wasn't.

I suspect the problem is people approach the redesigned stations with 'prior knowledge' of the old arrangements...then get confused when they seek to try and replicate exactly what they used to do.

Major station redesigns make most sense if you approach them with a 'forget everything you previously learned' viewpoint.

Dr Hoo · 22 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
I suspect the problem is people approach the redesigned stations with 'prior knowledge' of the old arrangements...then get confused when they seek to try and replicate exactly what they used to do.

Major station redesigns make most sense if you approach them with a 'forget everything you previously learned' viewpoint.

Sound advice indeed.

FOH · 22 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
Winter generally tends to be cold, as a rule of thumb.

The concourse its so deep its exactly level with the surrounding streets and exit from the tube station. The vertical distance to mount hasn't changed (just in one chunk mot two)

I don't agree, when changing between high and low level platforms it was a quick burst up the stairs and across. Now you're going down into the gloomy depths and up again

hwl · 22 Jul 2019

FOH said:
I don't agree, when changing between high and low level platforms it was a quick burst up the stairs and across. Now you're going down into the gloomy depths and up again

Unless it involved the old P15 or P16 as you had to walk all the way round the buffers and use the staircase to the footbridge on P13/14...
Rose tinted spectacles or being a user from Forest Hill none of you trains ever used the old P15/16 as they were usually always via Peckham Rye services from those platforms???

FOH · 22 Jul 2019

hwl said:
Unless it involved the old P15 or P16 as you had to walk all the way round the buffers and use the staircase to the footbridge on P13/14...
Rose tinted spectacles or being a user from Forest Hill none of you trains ever used the old P15/16 as they were usually always via Peckham Rye services from those platforms???

Possibly true, I cannot recall. Pretty sure my trains were almost always from P8-P14

DynamicSpirit · 22 Jul 2019

Ianno87 said:
Winter generally tends to be cold, as a rule of thumb.

And in my experience, major stations tend to have warm-ish waiting rooms reasonably conveniently placed for the platforms (or at least, for the busiest platforms), as a rule of thumb

AlbertBeale · 22 Jul 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
And in my experience, major stations tend to have warm-ish waiting rooms reasonably conveniently placed for the platforms (or at least, for the busiest platforms), as a rule of thumb

I haven't found one "conveniently placed for the platforms" at London Bridge!

Dr Hoo · 22 Jul 2019

Warmish waiting rooms (at least for an significant proportion of passengers) at busy stations seem to be the exception in my experience.

Perhaps because I live in a fairly remote rural area ‘dressing for the weather’ is a normal strategy anyway.

“Sheffield”, “Platform 2C” and “warmish” not usually found in the same sentence.

trebor79 · 22 Jul 2019

I've only used London Bridge a handful of times. Before and during but he rebuild I found it utterly confusing, and coming from the tube I didn't even know how to get to the departure board (if indeed there was one) and found myself trying to work out from the little screens which passageway I needed to use to reach the platform I thought my train went from.
Post rebuild, the confusing passageways are still there, but it's easy to locate the concourse and from there it's a doddle.

New Street, ad unpleasant as it was was at least easy to navigate and logically laid out. Now the concourse is really confusing and I struggle to find my way about, with platform entrances seemingly scattered at random and the departure board not telling you if you need the A or B end.

Dr Hoo · 22 Jul 2019

Hmm. Departure boards at New Street often seem to specify A or B (or 4C) in my experience. Obviously long Pendinos or CrossCountry HSTs effectively take a full platform.

telstarbox · 22 Jul 2019

It's gone from being one of the worst London terminals to one of the best. Good architecture is about effectiveness as well as aesthetics and for that reason the nomination is deserved.

The only drawback is that it now takes longer to get down to the tube but I'm sure @Bald Rick will be able to explain that one?

DynamicSpirit · 22 Jul 2019

telstarbox said:
It's gone from being one of the worst London terminals to one of the best. Good architecture is about effectiveness as well as aesthetics and for that reason the nomination is deserved.

The only drawback is that it now takes longer to get down to the tube but I'm sure @Bald Rick will be able to explain that one?

I'm not Bald Rick, but I think it's to do with removing the temptation for passengers commuting in the morning to all try to board at the front of the train - because that's where the shortest walk to the tube used to be when the train stops at London Bridge (as well as Cannon Street, and to some extent Charing Cross and Waterloo East) - so passengers are more likely to spread themselves more evenly along the trains. Also some issues with the Western ends of the platforms being too narrow to put decent exits there.

I do think it's rather regrettable that they didn't put some kind of travelators in though, given how long the walk from the national rail station to the underground now is. To my mind that's one example of how what would have been an amazingly good station has been somewhat spoiled by what looks to me like a lack of consideration for passenger convenience and comfort when designing it.

hwl · 22 Jul 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
I'm not Bald Rick, but I think it's to do with removing the temptation for passengers commuting in the morning to all try to board at the front of the train - because that's where the shortest walk to the tube used to be when the train stops at London Bridge (as well as Cannon Street, and to some extent Charing Cross and Waterloo East) - so passengers are more likely to spread themselves more evenly along the trains. Also some issues with the Western ends of the platforms being too narrow to put decent exits there.

I do think it's rather regrettable that they didn't put some kind of travelators in though, given how long the walk from the national rail station to the underground now is. To my mind that's one example of how what would have been an amazingly good station has been somewhat spoiled by what looks to me like a lack of consideration for passenger convenience and comfort when designing it.

Increasing the distance to the underground also helps with the ability to control crowding if/when it goes wrong which was a big issue with the old station...

LU no longer do easy short interchanges either like they did when building the Victoria line.

hwl · 22 Jul 2019

trebor79 said:
I've only used London Bridge a handful of times. Before and during but he rebuild I found it utterly confusing, and coming from the tube I didn't even know how to get to the departure board (if indeed there was one) and found myself trying to work out from the little screens which passageway I needed to use to reach the platform I thought my train went from.
Post rebuild, the confusing passageways are still there, but it's easy to locate the concourse and from there it's a doddle.

New Street, ad unpleasant as it was was at least easy to navigate and logically laid out. Now the concourse is really confusing and I struggle to find my way about, with platform entrances seemingly scattered at random and the departure board not telling you if you need the A or B end.

The "confusing" passage ways are both listed features.

The main east-west one is the last remaining part of the original William IV vintage station.
The steel deck above the corner (partly below the bus station above) between the 2 passageways was new and innovative at the time of installation 150 years ago and a key bit of steel structural history.

trebor79 · 22 Jul 2019

I didn't know that. I was aware it was 2 stations bodged into 1, and you could kind of tell, I seem to recall there was still a huge wall between the 2 "halves".

fusionblue · 22 Jul 2019

The platforms at 4-7 are sited in the wrong place, with the 8 car marker right at the top of the south facing escalators. This results in coach one being full and standing despite the rest of the London end of the platform being narrow (and people blocking it) and otherwise empty in the trains themselves.

You can't have an efficient track layout (which itself isn't true given the Thameslink Rainham services and everything around Lewisham, North Kent and the Ladywell loop) and then inefficiently stop trains to waste platform space at the country end.

The station feels great from a design standpoint but from a traffic (both people and trains) layout it lets everything down.

hwl · 22 Jul 2019

trebor79 said:
I didn't know that. I was aware it was 2 stations bodged into 1, and you could kind of tell, I seem to recall there was still a huge wall between the 2 "halves".

The original L&G station started in the centre of the site where the old P(7 till 30 years ago) and 8 were to the north of the north wall of the LBSCR shed. The Quadrapartite arches are useless at taking decent loads hence there being no track on top of them for a long time with much being demolished a long time ago towards the east (now reinstated in concete). The SER extended northwards towards Tooley Street in the 1840s and 1850s and later built a 2nd viaduct on top of the "normal" SER arches which could take the extra loads to increase the height to clear the roads to get Cannon Street and later Charing Cross / Blackfriars the SER continued adding tracks / platforms till the most northerly along Tooley Street was opened in 1901 (coinciding with Charing Cross going from 3 to 4 tracks on the approaches west of Borough Market)

hwl · 23 Jul 2019

fusionblue said:
The platforms at 4-7 are sited in the wrong place, with the 8 car marker right at the top of the south facing escalators. This results in coach one being full and standing despite the rest of the London end of the platform being narrow (and people blocking it) and otherwise empty in the trains themselves.

You can't have an efficient track layout (which itself isn't true given the Thameslink Rainham services and everything around Lewisham, North Kent and the Ladywell loop) and then inefficiently stop trains to waste platform space at the country end.

The station feels great from a design standpoint but from a traffic (both people and trains) layout it lets everything down.

On p4/5 that is a 700 related issue to always locate the wheelchair spaces on 12 and 8 car in the same place...

fusionblue · 23 Jul 2019

That's fine given the 700s are walk through (and have wide passages) their entire length. The 465 and 375-377 all don't have both, resulting in coach one and two (away from London) all being jammed solid then three to eight are relatively empty.

So unless the next trains ordered to replace the networkers and 376 follow the same template it will just have the same issue.

London Bridge shortlisted for award

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