• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is the Midland Mainline considered an "InterCity" route?

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
al78 said:
Try a more realistic comparison which includes travelling from origin to station and station to destination, plus accounting for padding to minimise the risk of missing the train, and compare that to the car, you may find that it is a lot closer.
Click to expand...
At one point, SNCF estimated that average speeds of 130 kph (about 80 mph) were needed for rail to be a really compelling alternative to the car. That line of thought led, ultimately, to the TGV.

Musing on EuroCity, which had a formal definition of what constitutes an intercity service, is interesting for this discussion. To take Wikipedia's list, which appears to originate in a Thomas Cook European Timetable, they were:
  1. train through two or more countries
  2. all cars air-conditioned
  3. stop only at stations serving major cities
  4. stops scheduled to last no more than five minutes, in special cases up to 15 minutes
  5. food and beverages available onboard (preferably from a dining car)
  6. conductors speak at least two languages, one of which must be English, French, or German
  7. average speed (including stops) above 90 kilometres per hour (56 mph), exceptions for routes including mountainous terrain and train ferries
  8. trains must complete their journey between 6:00 am and midnight (i.e. depart after 6am and arrive before midnight)
Some criteria obviously aren't really appropriate to a UK domestic service, but this list gives a sense of what constitutes 'intercity'. The 90 kph criterion, for instance, disqualifies CrossCountry services from Birmingham to Southampton, while TPE's Liverpool to Newcastle easily qualifies!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

T

The Nomad

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
44
Intercity trains are ones that don't stop at minor* stations along the way. An Intercity operator is one whose trains, on the whole, don't stop at minor* stations. Leeds - Doncaster on LNER is intercity. Leeds - Doncaster on Northern is not.

*Feel free to decide for yourself what a minor station is. They'll always be exceptions, such as what happens to LNER towards Aberdeen...
 
A

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
The Nomad said:
Intercity trains are ones that don't stop at minor* stations along the way. An Intercity operator is one whose trains, on the whole, don't stop at minor* stations. Leeds - Doncaster on LNER is intercity. Leeds - Doncaster on Northern is not.

*Feel free to decide for yourself what a minor station is. They'll always be exceptions, such as what happens to LNER towards Aberdeen...
Click to expand...
So in reality, there's no such thing as Inter-city in the UK. It's just a term than some people use to describe a (mainly nostalgic) view of longer distance rail services.
 
Q

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,265
AM9 said:
So in reality, there's no such thing as Inter-city in the UK. It's just a term than some people use to describe a (mainly nostalgic) view of longer distance rail services.
Click to expand...

There's no formally-branded UK inter-city network, but there are services which are obviously real inter-city services and others that are obviously not. Then there are some in between where it depends how you want to define things e.g. Liverpool-Norwich.
 
tbtc

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
The Nomad said:
Intercity trains are ones that don't stop at minor* stations along the way. An Intercity operator is one whose trains, on the whole, don't stop at minor* stations. Leeds - Doncaster on LNER is intercity. Leeds - Doncaster on Northern is not.

*Feel free to decide for yourself what a minor station is. They'll always be exceptions, such as what happens to LNER towards Aberdeen...
Click to expand...

As well as the local stations beyond Edinburgh/ Plymouth/ Oxford (where the InterCity service from London effectively becomes the local stopper), there's also the "minor station on a main line that has no local trains" - e.g. Diss on the line to Norwich, Retford and Chester le Street on the line to Newcastle, Penrith and Lockerbie on the line to Glasgow - since *something* has to serve these stations, and there are no local trains, these get "InterCity" services stopping there - which may devalue the services in the eyes of some people.

AM9 said:
So in reality, there's no such thing as Inter-city in the UK. It's just a term than some people use to describe a (mainly nostalgic) view of longer distance rail services.
Click to expand...

Sounds a fair definition to me (as someone who sees the railway as fifty shades of grey, rather than the simple/ binary/ pigeon-hole approach that some others take)
 
A

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
Bletchleyite said:
Erm, didn't we, er, invent it?
Click to expand...
Inter-city as a term was first coined by The Inter-City Rapid Transit Company in the US in 1930. BR first used it to name London to Birmingham trains in 1950. They launched it as a brand for their express services in 1966 which rolled on intyo the IC sector in 1986.
With the privatisation of UK rail, the term became an irrelevance as fast trains were also running as local stoppers and regional and even commuter trains ran faster services than the sectorised IC trains.
The term is still used abroad where there is some definition of what IC represents, especially in EU countries.
 
P

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,648
Location
Manchester
The literal meaning of the word covers all sorts of different rail routes, but I would say traditionally most people think of 'Intercity' the brand as the West Coast services out of London Euston to the West Midlands, North West and Scotland. Perhaps also the old Cross Country services out of Manchester (north and south) as they used a significant portion of the WCML.

More specifically, I would associate 'Intercity' with long distance West Coast mainline services, likewise 'GNER' with the East Coast, 'Midland Mainline' with the Midland, GWR with the West, 'the Marches' for the Wales and Borders.
 
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
InterCity was the brand used by BR for WCML, ECML, East Anglia ML, GWML, MML and CrossCountry long distance services, not just the WCML. Indeed, the WCML dropped the brand quicker than others did. Basically it was BR's brand for the profitable bits.
 
P

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,648
Location
Manchester
Bletchleyite said:
InterCity was the brand used by BR for WCML, ECML, East Anglia ML, GWML, MML and CrossCountry long distance services, not just the WCML. Indeed, the WCML dropped the brand quicker than others did. Basically it was BR's brand for the profitable bits.
Click to expand...

I know that, but what I mean is that the public in general considered the West Coast long distance routes as the mainstay 'Intercity' services, above the others.

Similarly when Virgin took over the WC, they were (and maybe still are) considered the principal long distance 'Intercity' operator by joe public, above GNER, MML and FGW.
 
Last edited:
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Philip said:
I know that, but what I mean is that the public in general considered the West Coast long distance routes as the mainstay 'Intercity' services, above the others.

Similarly when Virgin took over the WC, they were (and maybe still are) considered the principal long distance 'Intercity' operator by joe public, above GNER, MML and FGW.
Click to expand...

I don't agree, at least when it comes to the East Coast and GWML. East Anglia, the MML and GatEx were probably somewhat secondary.
 
P

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,648
Location
Manchester
Bletchleyite said:
I don't agree, at least when it comes to the East Coast and GWML. East Anglia, the MML and GatEx were probably somewhat secondary.
Click to expand...

But the West Coast was the first to be electrified and the first to receive investment for modern, high quality rolling stock.
 
R

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
Bletchleyite said:
I don't agree, at least when it comes to the East Coast and GWML. East Anglia, the MML and GatEx were probably somewhat secondary.
Click to expand...
Including Gatwick Express, but not Waterloo-Southampton, in InterCity is a pretty clear demonstration to me that it wasn't driven by the kind of service!

Certainly if you asked someone in the south-west of England, or north-eastern Scotland, about intercity trains, they'd talk about GWR or LNER - or their forebears.
 
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
RLBH said:
Including Gatwick Express, but not Waterloo-Southampton, in InterCity is a pretty clear demonstration to me that it wasn't driven by the kind of service!
Click to expand...

It was driven by being a primarily non-London-commuter service (ignoring the likes of Reading and MKC which are somewhat peripheral) that made a profit.
 
paul1609

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,245
Location
Wittersham Kent
Bletchleyite said:
I don't agree, at least when it comes to the East Coast and GWML. East Anglia, the MML and GatEx were probably somewhat secondary.
Click to expand...
Gat Ex was included for the sole reason it was massively profitable as it was a huge ORCATS raid on Southern Region Season Ticket Income and balanced the books of equally massive loss making inter city services to the regional cities.
 
Deerfold

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,650
Location
Yorkshire
Philip said:
I know that, but what I mean is that the public in general considered the West Coast long distance routes as the mainstay 'Intercity' services, above the others.
Click to expand...

I suspect many of them consider it to be whatever BR InterCity services ran close to them. When I was younger I thought of it as Leeds - London and didn't think of any other IC services until much later.
 
Jozhua

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,857
Certainly seems intercity enough to get a brand new fleet of Hitachi IET's ;)
 
SWTCommuter

SWTCommuter

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2009
Messages
352
tbtc said:
Some places (Ramsgate, Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth) had InterCity services to Birmingham but no InterCity services to London.
Click to expand...
SotonElectrificationPoster_small.jpg
In Southern Region days, fast and semi-fast Bournemouth-Southampton-Waterloo services were announced and marketed as InterCity services. Following sectorization they became Network Expresses.

This video of the Solari at Waterloo shows the 'Network Express' header for a Weymouth service at around the 1 min 53 sec mark. If I remember correctly, pre-Network SouthEast this slot contained 'InterCity' in white letters on a red background.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top