Similar to 150s and 319s. Similar layout really, but the 507 and 508s have aluminium bodies.
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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates
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I couldn't agree more.
michael Bell
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- 26 May 2019
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On Saturday the 27/07/2019 I travelled on 2 195 from Lancaster to Man pic 119 was the first which was deleyed by slow door operation and the Guard having to try different sets of switches the 2nd set in the rear carriage seemed to work the best. As an airport service these trains lack proper places for large cases as leaving them in the spaces either side of the doors resulted in cases falling over into the door area and moveing around on there wheels, where are the luggage racks. The ride was far poorer than the Tpe 185 trains with very jerky stops and starts. On the return it was the 16:47 with 115 as stated no Toilets working, doors opened at Picadilly but closed and would not reopen for quite a while again causing a late departure. The information displays show the time the train should arrive in a station and an estimated time of arrival both showed the time table time even when the train left Preston about 7 mins before it was due in Lancaster. With all the delays in entering service I am less than Impressed with these Train and feel they are cheap option and of poor quality.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What unit type did you really and truly expect Northern to provide, noting what diesel-powered rolling stock was running in the franchise area prior to the introduction of the Class 195 units. The Class 195 are new units....would you have been happier to see the Vivarail Class 230 "new lamps for old" units plying their trade in the Northern franchise area as an "innovative" solution to the previous "innovative Class 142 Pacer" units?
Spot on, Paul.
Dirty v clean? I can't imagine why a 195 would generally be cleaner than a 150/156. Trains either get cleaned or they don't, and how well they get cleaned, when they do, often depends where they have spent the previous night. The 195s used on the Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street service (which is the one I presume you use) are, for the most part, stabled overnight at Allerton or Newton Heath - so, no excuse for them not to be clean. One unit does actually do two days (Friday/Saturday) without visiting a depot in between, it would be interesting to see how that one fares.
Noisy? Yes, a 150 and 156 are both noisier than a 195, but Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street is an interurban service with not many stops, noise shouldn't be so intrusive.
Hot? Depends upon the time of year - most of the year it shouldn't be a problem, I'm sure.
Spacious? Not a 195, if it's replacing a double 150 or 156.
Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly is hardly a fair test, it's on the least patronised section of the route. A fairer test would be into or out of Manchester (to/from the West) or Liverpool, at peak.
Indeed, but I'm still saying that those aren't necessarily the ones the 195s would be most suited to.
How is a 150 with 3+2 seating more spacious than a 195?
I wouldn't say a 156 is more spacious either, personally I'd say they're the same.
I didn't in any way suggest a 150 was more spacious than a 195, I implied that a double 150 was. Same with a 156, although, for avoidance of doubt, I suppose I should have said 'if it's replacing a double 150 or double 156'.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That is certainly my impression - while Class 170s (better regional express units) run around on local stopping trains in the Leeds area, helpfully offsetting the cooler Yorkshire weather by kicking out a load of heat produced by burning diesel and using it to stir up transmission oil.
Assuming no electrification, the mechanical-transmission Class 195 is far more suited to directly replacing Pacers on local stopping services than it is to Northern Connect.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Neither the 150 nor 156 is as claustrophobic and small-feeling as the 195 - the 195 is a better unit than both of them on balance simply because it's more modern, but it certainly feels cramped in terms of general feel even if the seating and layout is vastly superior.
Both might have more seating than a 3 car 195, but in terms of personal space, I'd much rather have a 195 than a 150 with 2+3 seating.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd rather a double 150 than a 195 - the more capacity the better, and 3+2 is OK if nobody is sitting directly next to you (i.e. it's being used as 2+1).
I would rather a 3-car 195 than a 2-car 150 though for the same reason.
In case anyone gets the wrong impression, perhaps I could make it clear that there is only one toilet on a 195, whether 2-car or 3-car.
I have to disagree I'm afraid, as claustrophobic isn't a word I'd use to describe the 195s.
But with a 3-car 195's reduced total capacity (compared to a double 150 or double 156), what if you didn't manage to get on?
I've never been on a Northern 150 at rush hour and had nobody sat next to or in front of me.
If you use 3+2 seating as 2+1, then wouldn't that reduce capacity?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, this was an incredibly stupid decision given the unreliability of modern train toilets. Both lengths should have had two, one big and one small.
A 195 is only going to be claustrophobic if it's jam-packed full, but the point is, it's going to be jam-packed full noticeably before a double 150 or double 156 would have been.
Another reason to use the 195s as suburban units? One toilet on a 2-car/3-car local train is usually adequate, where hardly anyone is likely to use it anyway.
The point is, the 3+2 layout only has relevance when the train gets full. If it isn't full, it might just as well have a 2+1 layout, but with the 3+2 layout, at least the capacity is there when it's needed.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if a 3 car 195 and a double 150 have a very similar overall capacity, considering the latter is only 9m longer than a 195/1.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Good point.
Yes, but a full 150 with 3+2 seating doesn't offer as much personal space and comfort as a full 195 with 2+2 seating.
I think I know what the vast majority of passengers would prefer.
Greybeard33
Established Member
And much of the extra 9m is occupied by the two inner cabs and the second PRM toilet in the double 150 formation. So little difference in saloon space.
Good points, although my first instinct was to pull you up for making a virtue out of the fact that 195s have only one toilet, when a moment or two ago the fact was being given as one of the type's flaws. However, it is on Airport-Liverpool where 195s have been replacing double 150s/double 156s, a route where the vast majority of passengers will be making a journey of less than an hour's duration, very different from Airport to Barrow or Windermere, so okay.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would prefer, in a situation of overcrowding, whichever had more capacity. So 4.150 over 3.195, but 6.195 over both.
As I said earlier, there's only 9m between a 3 car 195 (71m) and a pair of 150s (80m), and as Greybeard33 pointed out above, a lot of that 9m is taken up by the two inner cabs. 150s also have smaller vestibules, and the 3+2 seated units have narrower aisles, so there's less space for people to stand.
Taking those into account, I wouldn't be surprised if they have very similar or the same overall capacity.
LeylandLen
Member
Surely toilet usage usually depends on time of day ? Commuters unlikely to use one having been at work , whereas someone on a night out in Manchester/Liverpool might need to use one ater liquid consumed works its way around the body ..
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
On a local service yes, but on a regional service it is more likely others will use them.
It would be interesting to see what kind of effect making station toilets free has had on the frequency of tank emptying being required (and if, indeed, this was part of the reasoning for doing so). I've certainly noticed the Euston bogs of a morning being noticeably busier than they used to be.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Today, we travelled on 195 119 on the 1029 Manchester Airport to Barrow in Furness train as far as Wigan North Western in coach A and as far as I could ascertain in our particular coach, there were no door problems and we had a most enjoyable journey sat in table seats next to the window.
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