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XC and GWR train crew shortages
- Thread starter Mitchell Hurd
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Mintona
Established Member
If the TOCs want their staff to have contracts that include Sunday within the working week then at some point they’ll have to offer them one.
Maybe if all the delay repay payments for staff shortages on Sundays were to come out of the pay of senior management something would get done!
What’s more boring than the cancellations is even the discussion about it, as it seems to effect most TOCs so it’s discussed constantly, every Sunday and every holiday period.
It really needs to be sorted though and Sundays made part of the working week. I can’t see it ever happening though as current staff won’t want their contracts changing and the unions won’t agree to it.
Even the suggestion will just lead to strike action, so you’d end up worse than now.
It really needs to be sorted though and Sundays made part of the working week. I can’t see it ever happening though as current staff won’t want their contracts changing and the unions won’t agree to it.
Even the suggestion will just lead to strike action, so you’d end up worse than now.
Mintona
Established Member
That really isn’t true. ASLEF would definitely agree to it if the right offer was made. And it would certainly never lead to strike action.
vikingdriver
Member
- Joined
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- 307
Whilst the staff may not all want it, many do and that isn't the case of unions themselves. ASLEF for example aspire to a 4 day week with no overtime which requires Sunday to be part of the week. As I said earlier it is the TOCs who are reluctant / don't want it.
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Sundays are becoming more and more like a standard day for most of the population, people want to do as much as they can on a Sunday as they can on a Saturday. The railway is still stuck in the dark ages in catching up with that, but people rely on public transport to go about their lives on whichever day of the week.
Airlines don't have this issue, it's a 24/7 operation. Some companies still pay a higher rate on Sundays as standard, but many industries adopt it as a standard working day, the same in modern retail contracts.
TOC's need to try and adopt Sundays in the working week ASAP. I know it's something TfW have committed to under the new Franchise. That will however result in higher costs.
I'm not sure how accurate this is so happy to be corrected, but I was told that a deal to introduce Sundays as part of the working week would involve a review of average overtime incurred from working Sundays and a pay rise to match that. But if that's given the go ahead then that should mean that there's no overtime paid to work a Sunday, no desperate call arounds trying to find people to work. Those people that never choose to work a Sunday would get a nice little pay rise from it as well, still work the same hours they currently do, just with Sundays now included in that.
Employing more people isn't necessarily going to fix the problem if they are on the same contracts as every one else. It doesn't matter if you have 100 people or a 1000 people on the Mon-Sat contracts, you could still get 1000 people refusing to work a Sunday if they don't have to.
Airlines don't have this issue, it's a 24/7 operation. Some companies still pay a higher rate on Sundays as standard, but many industries adopt it as a standard working day, the same in modern retail contracts.
TOC's need to try and adopt Sundays in the working week ASAP. I know it's something TfW have committed to under the new Franchise. That will however result in higher costs.
I'm not sure how accurate this is so happy to be corrected, but I was told that a deal to introduce Sundays as part of the working week would involve a review of average overtime incurred from working Sundays and a pay rise to match that. But if that's given the go ahead then that should mean that there's no overtime paid to work a Sunday, no desperate call arounds trying to find people to work. Those people that never choose to work a Sunday would get a nice little pay rise from it as well, still work the same hours they currently do, just with Sundays now included in that.
Employing more people isn't necessarily going to fix the problem if they are on the same contracts as every one else. It doesn't matter if you have 100 people or a 1000 people on the Mon-Sat contracts, you could still get 1000 people refusing to work a Sunday if they don't have to.
You’re always going to lose a proportion of drivers available to work Sundays purely down to Saturday being the end of the working week. Ie. Any member of train crew working lates or nights on Saturday could then be switching to an early shift on Monday which then rules them out of working Sunday. To get around that you would need to employ considerably more drivers per depot and this cost will of course be passed on.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Wrong.
The Unions have stated that they are happy to include Sundays within the working week BUT only with certain provisos, but it is the operators who are not willing to accept those and have failed to enter into any meaningful conversations about it.
bramling
Veteran Member
I love the notion of Sunday becoming a “standard day” for most of the population. Were that to be be the case, wouldn’t most of the population be at work? It’s the same issue we get at Christmas - “*I* don’t want to work, but I expect the full range of services to be available to me”.
For as long as a majority of the population want weekends and bank holidays off, there will always be a problem providing services. The only way round that is to pay a premium, a substantial one, and even that’s only partially effective.
3141
Established Member
Much the same point as I was making, but apparently I didn't make myself clear. So, on a weekend like this one, when as Jonfun said in post #2 "Sunday on Bank Holiday weekend when you've got nice weather and the likes of Reading/Leeds festival, Manchester/Cardiff Prides, plus it's summer holiday time", there would be some people who'd phone in sick who wanted to be somewhere different from work, even if it was part of their contract to be there that day.
It's only really office workers that do Monday-Friday only. Many service industries do work weekends, shops are open, hotels are open, bars and restaurants are open, tourist attractions are open, Airlines fly, buses run, coach companies run both private and long distant public, Power Plants, Water companies, Call centres etc all also need to be 7 days a week. why should the railway be any different? The list can go on.
Lets not forget, many people travelling on a Sunday are trying to get to work either that day or ready for Monday, not just go out for the day on the train.
If it's part of the working week, then you just book annual leave like everyone else.
The railway needs to adapt to modern society, which is unlikely to be a welcome change to many workers that haven't needed to work a Sunday before.
Wouldn't that just have to be dealt with in line with company procedures/return to work/number of absences etc?
Boxing Day is always a good one.
We should have trains I can’t go to Away games then.
So go on the coach? Don’t want to
So in effect you want to go for a days drinking with the match as an afterthought... that’s what it is.
Same with Horse Racing, Drinking seems to come a far second to the Race there too!
And that’s the point if they had to works Sunday then they would. At the moment they don’t so why should they!
bramling
Veteran Member
The issue on the railway isn’t so much that Sunday services run - they always have - but the considerable increase in Sunday services over the last couple of decades. This leads to two problems:
(1) More staff required, which the industry doesn’t seem to want to provide
(2) Staff don’t want to do more Sundays, which isn’t unreasonable when it represents a material change from what they signed up to. Naturally in an industry with already high and rising costs, there appears to be a reluctance to buy off the staff
Then one can add to that the issue of increased sickness during certain times, like weekends, school and bank holidays - especially when the weather is fine. This has been going on for years, but the more you try to run the more vulnerable things are to this. Obviously this is anathema to office staff who get *every* weekend off, but presumably they have their own alternative like Monday sickness?!
Paddy O'Doors
Member
- Joined
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- 52
Some people just don't want to work on rest days, simple as that, you can't force them.
When I worked for BR back in the 1970s I was contracted to work on Sundays and was paid what I considered to be a acceptable amount to do so (obviously if the amount had not been acceptable I would not have taken the job). Everyone else appeared to be contracted to work Sundays as well and hence there was no problem providing the services due to lack of contracted staff.
At some time between then and now we seemed to have got into a situation where some TOCs have staff contracted to work on Sundays and some do not ... I do not know how that happened. What is clear to me is that any organisation purporting to provide services on Sundays should employ people on contracts which require them to work on Sundays ... if they do not then, equally clearly, anyone not so contracted is entitled to turn down requests to work on a Sunday. If the only way to attract enough people to take contracts requiring Sunday working is to offer a premium then, again, it is perfectly clear that is what the oragnisations must do - as I said, I would not have taken the BR job if I felt the pay offered was too low and I am sure I would not have been the only one.
Busaholic
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Jun 2014
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- 14,090
That all seems eminently sensible to me. When Sunday opening of retail outlets became legal most stores didn't require existing staff to work on that day, or offered incentives to do so, but over the years have insisted new staff sign contracts which include Sunday working, often at 'normal' rates too. I'm not suggesting that railway workers should be expected to do the latter, but there has to be a commitment to work a proportion of Sundays. A TOC without such contracts shouldn't be given a franchise imo.
156420
Member
Yes. You are being completely unfair on passengers who want to enjoy their day off. Why should you enjoy your day off if they can't enjoy theirs?
In addition, I’ve asked to be made ‘Not Available’ for a booked Sunday in 3 weeks time, I have some social plans on the Saturday night which I’d really like to attend, now just before it’s signed off by rosters; is everyone on here ok with that, first? Because I know opinion on here about what staff do in the free time is more important than my social life.
Now I can post full details about what I’m doing and who with and where and then maybe those on here can decide if I’m allowed to have that Sunday off?
Now I know, all of the above might seem over the top, it is genuine though. I hope it gives some sort of insight to the fact that you’re talking about real people with real lives, not just machines, there are some people that will be absolutely desperate to have Sunday’s off, and genuinely not want to work (sometimes). I expect the usual spiel about well why did they take a job that involved working Sundays, I have no issue with working Sundays, myself and others do our fair share of extras too, but sometimes we physically can’t (because of Hidden) or don’t want to work a Sunday be it a booked or unbooked turn.
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father_jack
Member
- Joined
- 26 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 1,130
On a lighter note. They were so desperate for staff on GWR today that those who came in were in hot water 
1C27 CREW SHORTAGE. SIG THAT ONLY ONE TM ONBOARD AFTER 2ND POACHED FOR ANOTHER SERVICE. THEREFORE ONLY 5 CARS CAN BE USED. CUSTOMERS HAD TO BE MOVED TO THE FRONT 5 CARS CAUSING DELAY
1C27 CREW SHORTAGE. SIG THAT ONLY ONE TM ONBOARD AFTER 2ND POACHED FOR ANOTHER SERVICE. THEREFORE ONLY 5 CARS CAN BE USED. CUSTOMERS HAD TO BE MOVED TO THE FRONT 5 CARS CAUSING DELAY
F Great Eastern
Established Member
Going to be a bad day on the GWR routes. Not only is there cancellations and delays due to shortage of train crews and over 50short formations listed already. There's now one under between Bath and Bristol too.
dk1
Veteran Member
I will do it for you. It's the only day I enjoy working. Even did a dozen yesterday to help out
According to this article on Somerset Live, Sunday's problems on GWR were due to strike action.
Lazy reporting or fake news?
Lazy reporting or fake news?
There's currently only two cancellations listed, neither of which are due to train crew. The short forms are mostly due to sets out of place from yesterday.
When you read rubbish like this in the press, makes you wonder about the factual aspect of all the other non-railway related articles.
Perhaps you ought to actually open up the list of alterations on Journeycheck and read things like the changes to train formations first before predicting doom.
Nowhere is there any mention of staff issues, with current cancellations down to the incident between Bath and Bristol (now cleared and with additional trains being run to reposition stock, shown in the service updates list), and a faulty dmu in Cornwall
While there were 55 train formation updates on the list at 08.44, 27 of them were accounted for by the Twyford to Henley branch, where a 2-car Turbo is in use rather than a three-car. Another eight alterations are down to another two-car Turbo working on Reading-Newbury stoppers instead of a three-car.
There appear to be three five-car IETs in use this morning instead of nine-cars. These are being used, logically, on two Cotswold/Oxford and one Cheltenham diagram, and unlikely to be the end of the world on a bank holiday when loadings are spread out across the day.
As opposed to the factual aspect of posts on this thread...
At least there is an element of fact in this thread though.
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