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York ROC recontrol of Kings Cross PSB

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Aictos

Aictos

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Once the former Kings Cross PSB is recontrolled from York ROC, how many panels will it be and is it the intention that the existing panels that are in use transfer like for like with the same panels controlling the same areas but from York or is it the intention that panels are done differently in York?

I know that the Hertford Loop has already migrated to York, jut interested on the other former Kings Cross PSB panels on how they be operated.
 
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Shwam3

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This weekend the existing panels 3, 4, & 5 are being recontrolled to 3 new WestCAD workstations in York ROC, with the existing Hertford Loop workstation being split up to form:
  • Wood Green workstation controlling New Southgate to Hatfield (incl) and Bowes Park (excl) to Hertford North (incl)
  • Langley workstation controlling Hatfield (excl) and Hertford North (excl) to Stevenage (incl)
  • Hitchin workstation controlling Stevenage (excl) to the existing fringes with Peterborough and Cambridge SBs.
I have no idea what the plan for the rest of the PSB is yet though or if the above areas will change when the remaining panels transfer over.
 
bramling

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Shwam3 said:
This weekend the existing panels 3, 4, & 5 are being recontrolled to 3 new WestCAD workstations in York ROC, with the existing Hertford Loop workstation being split up to form:
  • Wood Green workstation controlling New Southgate to Hatfield (incl) and Bowes Park (excl) to Hertford North (incl)
  • Langley workstation controlling Hatfield (excl) and Hertford North (excl) to Stevenage (incl)
  • Hitchin workstation controlling Stevenage (excl) to the existing fringes with Peterborough and Cambridge SBs.
I have no idea what the plan for the rest of the PSB is yet though or if the above areas will change when the remaining panels transfer over.
Click to expand...

Is this change going to result in quite a lot of experience draining away in one way or another? (In other words presumably few of the existing King's Cross PSB staff will be moving all the way to York?).
 
Aictos

Aictos

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Shwam3 said:
This weekend the existing panels 3, 4, & 5 are being recontrolled to 3 new WestCAD workstations in York ROC, with the existing Hertford Loop workstation being split up to form:
  • Wood Green workstation controlling New Southgate to Hatfield (incl) and Bowes Park (excl) to Hertford North (incl)
  • Langley workstation controlling Hatfield (excl) and Hertford North (excl) to Stevenage (incl)
  • Hitchin workstation controlling Stevenage (excl) to the existing fringes with Peterborough and Cambridge SBs.
I have no idea what the plan for the rest of the PSB is yet though or if the above areas will change when the remaining panels transfer over.
Click to expand...

When you say exclude and include if we take the Hertford Loop as a example, does this mean that the Wood Green workstation signals as far as Hertford North itself with routes set north of the station being the purview of the Langley workstation?
 
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jon0844

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I see that Open Train Times has already updated to show a lot more information. See this image of Welwyn Garden City as an example.

Unfortunately I don't have an old image to show what it looked like before.

Screenshot_20190824_211739_com.android.chrome.jpg
 
Aictos

Aictos

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Indeed, on the map at the moment it shows York ROC as controlling from New Southgate northbound from Platforms 3/4 and southbound up to New Barnet's Platforms 1/2.

Obviously it's being updated as and when but it's a work in progress.
 
DaveHarries

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jon0844 said:
I see that Open Train Times has already updated to show a lot more information. See this image of Welwyn Garden City as an example.

Unfortunately I don't have an old image to show what it looked like before.

View attachment 67689
Click to expand...
Just had a look at the layout around Welwyn Garden City as per SimSig's layout. I attach an image which also shows Hertford North and have written in the signal numbers for guidance. Going by the OTT map I don't think there is much difference between the two.

Dave

simsigkgx3.png
 
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takno

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DaveHarries said:
Just had a look at the layout around Welwyn Garden City as per SimSig's layout. I attach an image which also shows Hertford North and have written in the signal numbers for guidance. Going by the OTT map I don't think there is much difference between the two.

Dave

View attachment 67719
Click to expand...
It's a recontrol. I don't think anything's supposed to be changing on the ground, it's just that we will (probably) get signal aspects and route information, which is presumably why OTT have changed their diagrams.
 
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Shwam3

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takno said:
It's a recontrol. I don't think anything's supposed to be changing on the ground, it's just that we will (probably) get signal aspects and route information, which is presumably why OTT have changed their diagrams.
Click to expand...
The Y8 train describer will output signal aspects and route set info for all controlled signals, with the odd exception of shunt signal aspects around Royston. Also all shunt signals now have TD berths where most didnt under the PSB.
 
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takno

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Shwam3 said:
The Y8 train describer will output signal aspects and route set info for all controlled signals, with the odd exception of shunt signal aspects around Royston. Also all shunt signals now have TD berths where most didnt under the PSB.
Click to expand...
All this would be so much easier if I had consistent access to the SOP files rather than having to work them out *grumble grumble*
 
Aictos

Aictos

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Shwam3 said:
The Y8 train describer will output signal aspects and route set info for all controlled signals, with the odd exception of shunt signal aspects around Royston. Also all shunt signals now have TD berths where most didnt under the PSB.
Click to expand...

So come Tuesday morning, we been able to see the aspect of every main aspect signal in the former Kings Cross PSB area?

My next question and this involves open data for both Open Train Times and Traksy but instead of showing just red and green aspects why don’t they show yellow aspects or even flashing aspects?

I know years ago Royston was split between Kings Cross and Cambridge but I thought they changed in 2014 to Kings Cross having full responsibility for Royston?
 
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takno

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Aictos said:
So come Tuesday morning, we been able to see the aspect of every main aspect signal in the former Kings Cross PSB area?

My next question and this involves open data for both Open Train Times and Traksy but instead of showing just red and green aspects why don’t they show yellow aspects or even flashing aspects?

I know years ago Royston was split between Kings Cross and Cambridge but I thought they changed in 2014 to Kings Cross having full responsibility for Royston?
Click to expand...
You won't have any aspect information for the first week on Traksy, just because we don't have access to the mappings and will have to work them out. It's top of the list to figure out and get live though.

The short answer on why only red/green aspects are shown is that that level of data just isn't made available except for a really limited number of places. In principle it would usually be possible to work out, quite possibly including the flashing aspects, but it would require more complete data mappings than we have. We would also need fairly comprehensive information about which signals were auto signals, how many aspects each had, and whether they were approach-controlled or not. I've been tempted in the past to write an algorithm to do the job for areas where we do have that info, but it's one of those things which doesn't add a massive amount of value, and could end up just being confusing if there are errors or missing data.
 
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Shwam3

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Aictos said:
So come Tuesday morning, we been able to see the aspect of every main aspect signal in the former Kings Cross PSB area?

My next question and this involves open data for both Open Train Times and Traksy but instead of showing just red and green aspects why don’t they show yellow aspects or even flashing aspects?

I know years ago Royston was split between Kings Cross and Cambridge but I thought they changed in 2014 to Kings Cross having full responsibility for Royston?
Click to expand...
Only controlled signals (as opposed to automatic signals) in the area now controlled by York ROC, which is roughly New Southgate & Palmers Green northwards, will show aspect & route information. The remaining areas still controlled from Kings Cross PSB will not show any more details than they previously did.

You can already see the signalling data on some sites, I have updated mine at https://signalmaps.co.uk#alpal, https://signalmaps.co.uk#welwyn, & https://signalmaps.co.uk#hitchin, and I know Open Train Times have updated theirs at https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1.

The reason these types of websites only show red or green signals is that the Network Rail feed only contains information for "is this signal red or not", rather than every possible aspect. This is a slightly simplified explanation however.
 
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Surreytraveller

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Even signallers' displays only show red or green (green meaning a proceed aspect is being displayed rather than a green aspect)
 
Aictos

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Has Network Rail given a completion date for the recontrol of the signalling from Kings Cross PSB to York ROC to be completed eg York ROC to control everything south of Sandy and Royston?
 
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Shwam3 said:
Some systems can show the full detail, as a random example here is Liverpool Street IECC showing yellow & double yellow aspects https://photos.signalling.org/picture?/20579/category/2198-2014_may
Click to expand...

With relay interlockings such as those formerly controlled by Kings Cross, the signal aspects are worked out by relays at the trackside, because doing it in the interlocking would need a wire out to the signal for each aspect rather than one wire for clear or not (or none at all for an auto signal with no replacement). So the corresponding panels show just show a "dumb" symbol for an auto signal*, and red or green for a controlled signal because sometimes the signaller needs to be certain one of those is showing danger or a proceed aspect. The panel indication (but not the actual signal) shows flashing red if the signaller has cancelled the route and the signal has gone back to red but the route is locked by a timer (approach locking).

Solid State Interlockings use a serial data stream rather than individual cables to and from the trackside so it's cheaper and easier to do the aspect control in the interlocking. I've not worked with other computer-based interlockings but it would be logical for them to do the same. Actual aspects of all signals are therefore available and were certainly shown on the early screen-based IECC displays I was involved in, including Liverpool Street and the original York scheme. At the time re-controls of relay interlockings sometimes second-guessed the actual aspect in the interface where no actual aspect information was available, but I suspect practice may since have changed on this question. There may also be concerns around presenting information consistently to signallers across the area of control rather than giving aspect information in some places and not others.

Five Mile Diagrams are available, on payment of a license fee which I suspect is large, and in most areas show the aspects each signal is capable of displaying and sometimes also details of the track circuits.

*Some complication for autos with different types of replacement, but I'm not going to go into that here.
 
DaveHarries

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jon0844 said:
I see that Open Train Times has already updated to show a lot more information. See this image of Welwyn Garden City as an example.

Unfortunately I don't have an old image to show what it looked like before.

View attachment 67689
Click to expand...
Just had a look again as at 22:37hrs. Control boundary on the OpenTrainTimes map - https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1 - and noted that the control boundary between Kings Cross PSB and York ROC is now signals 475 & 477 (just prior to Wood Green Tunnel) on the Down Lines and that, on the up lines, it has moved from New Barnet to being immediately prior to Oakleigh Park. No signals at all on the OTT map between Kings Cross and somewhere around Hornsey

Dave
 
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Shwam3 said:
Only controlled signals (as opposed to automatic signals) in the area now controlled by York ROC, which is roughly New Southgate & Palmers Green northwards, will show aspect & route information. The remaining areas still controlled from Kings Cross PSB will not show any more details than they previously did.

You can already see the signalling data on some sites, I have updated mine at https://signalmaps.co.uk#alpal, https://signalmaps.co.uk#welwyn, & https://signalmaps.co.uk#hitchin, and I know Open Train Times have updated theirs at https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1.

The reason these types of websites only show red or green signals is that the Network Rail feed only contains information for "is this signal red or not", rather than every possible aspect. This is a slightly simplified explanation however.
Click to expand...

Signalmaps.co.uk is some of the best and comprehensive maps available, well done. Is track circuit information available via the open data? I see some stations on your maps have it but would be kind of cool to see where the train is between signals.
 
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66Yorks

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Never seen this website before. Am I right in saying it covers the south at the moment?
GB said:
Signalmaps.co.uk is some of the best and comprehensive maps available, well done. Is track circuit information available via the open data? I see some stations on your maps have it but would be kind of cool to see where the train is between signals.
Click to expand...
 
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Yes pretty much. About the furthest north is Stoke tunnel, though I am sure there must be plans to further the ECML maps and perhaps the WCML in the future.
 
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notverydeep

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Can anyone advise which signalling area contains the Y8 Train Describer live data feed? I have a Python utility (a colleague assisted - I'm not exactly a Python expert!) and it is 'listening' to and returning data from the two London North Eastern Train Describer feeds:

TD_LNE_GN_SIG_AREA
and
TD_LNE_NE_SIG_AREA

However a text search of the outputs do not contain any Y8 messages and the only Y8 it finds is in the headcode 1Y82! The utility is happily recording data from the KX Train Describer, but I am trying to get data for the GN Inners across the whole of the routes to Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hertford North. Any pointers gratefully received...
 
Freightmaster

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notverydeep said:
Any pointers gratefully received...
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the 'regional grouping' of TD feeds is no longer in use, so any new
TD areas (such as Y8) are not added to one of the existing feeds.

So to receive get messages from the Y8 Train Describer, you need to subscribe
to the { TD_ALL_SIG_AREA } feed.



MARK
 
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notverydeep

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Freightmaster said:
Unfortunately, the 'regional grouping' of TD feeds is no longer in use, so any new
TD areas (such as Y8) are not added to one of the existing feeds.

So to receive get messages from the Y8 Train Describer, you need to subscribe
to the { TD_ALL_SIG_AREA } feed.



MARK
Click to expand...

That makes sense, thanks very much for clarifying. Clearly I'm going to have learn how to code just writing the TDs that I want to the file. With just the TD_LNE_GN_SIG_AREA being recorded a day's data is a manageable size file that I can easily work on in Excel (where I am much more comfortable!), but with everywhere being logged, the file has got large quite quickly...
 
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