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SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

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HamworthyGoods

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I won't confirm anything until an official announcement but it certainly appears that the guards will have no role on the 701s.

I thought it wasn’t about who looked after the doors it was the guarantee of a second safety critical person on board without which the train wouldn’t run, surely these are two very different things as the guard still will have a role on the 701 as they won’t run in passenger traffic without one?
 
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pompeyfan

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I thought it wasn’t about who looked after the doors it was the guarantee of a second safety critical person on board without which the train wouldn’t run, surely these are two very different things as the guard still will have a role on the 701 as they won’t run in passenger traffic without one?

The cynic in me says that with no door controls, SWR and DfT can dump the guards without warning like they did on LO. Granted they’ve not done it yet on southern or GA. I could have sworn these discussions are 2/3 years old. It’s like being back in the dark ages of the southern dispute sadly.
 

HamworthyGoods

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The cynic in me says that with no door controls, SWR and DfT can dump the guards without warning like they did on LO. Granted they’ve not done it yet on southern or GA. I could have sworn these discussions are 2/3 years old. It’s like being back in the dark ages of the southern dispute sadly.
Except Southern always has stated it’s intention to be able to run a train without an OBS.
 

Ethano92

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Perhaps now people will appreciate quite why the RMT has been so lacking in their trust of SWR. They've been played like a fiddle.

I thought SWR only promised to roster a second member of staff on each service, which never meant it would be a guard with door controls nor did it mean every train will be garunteed to have a second member of staff on board. I guess nothings been confirmed yet though.
 

pompeyfan

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I thought SWR only promised to roster a second member of staff on each service, which never meant it would be a guard with door controls nor did it mean every train will be garunteed to have a second member of staff on board. I guess nothings been confirmed yet though.

SWR came out publicly saying they had moved away from only rostering, and that all passenger services would have a safety crit guard onboard.

Except Southern always has stated it’s intention to be able to run a train without an OBS.

That is correct, however, playing devils advocate (and I hate it) everyone expected the OBS role to last 2 seconds, 3 years later and they’re still there, they look bored as sin, but it’s still a well paid job with 37.5hpw for £35k.
 

Ethano92

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SWR came out publicly saying they had moved away from only rostering, and that all passenger services would have a safety crit guard onboard.

Despite not agreeing with RMT I don't agree with that move either as I never expected SWR to keep a guard on board doing the same job they do now and I can understand why RMT clearly hasn't believed that either.
 

infobleep

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Edited: So is the future idea that SWR trains never run without a guard during disruption, unlike GTR trains, which can run without a guard? Will the guard have full safety critical knowledge? I can't remember if all GTR OBS staff do.

On a strike timetable information note, I couldn't see anything on the SWR Web Site overview covering Guildford to Waterloo via Leatherhead services or Guildford to Farnham services. Not sure if any other service routes are missing.

They do mention Exeter to Reading services not running on Sunday, so it's not as if they ignore all more recent service additions.

They also say for Sunday that there will be a reduced 2 services an hour fro London on the Portsmouth via Guildford route and the Haslemere services will not run. I wasn't aware of Haslemere terminating / starting services running on Sundays. There are 3 trains an hour in the evening but the rest of the day is 2 trains an hour, of which the stopping train already calls at Milford & Whitly, so it won't additionally be stopping there.

When I asked previously about Guildford to FarnhamI I was told to check Guildford to Ascot section but Farnham isn't mentioned under that.

I'm aware of what to do but not everyone would be.
 
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Goldfish62

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Edited: So is the future idea that SWR trains never run without a guard during disruption, unlike GTR trains, which can run without a guard? Will the guard have full safety critical knowledge?

.
Mellors has said both on TV and in published statements that trains won't run without a guard and that SWR had dropped its proposals to do so in certain circumstances. I don't know how much clearer this could be.

Regarding keeping safety critical competence, if SWR move away from this for the 701s this would surely require creating a separate pool of guards and what would happen, as is bound to occur, if a 450 was substituted for a 701?

I think as someone mentioned earlier this has got more to do with the RMT General Secretary election as Cash had been accused by the headbanger Hoyle who is standing against him of being weak and not combative enough.
 

jc1

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I’m led to believe that there’s an important announcement and meetings with the RMT on Thursday from the company that could potentially end or further provoke the strikes.

The company are expected to announce their preferred method of operation on 701s, with serious thought apparently being given to driver/ABDO open, guard close. We shall see.

It’s unusual for companies to entertain unions during planned industry action.
Was there any announcement in the end?
 

WA_Driver

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A open letter from Andy Mellors to Mick Cash

“Dear Mick,


ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY
I write following our meeting earlier today.

I reiterated the comments I made in my letter of 19 August that it is extremely disappointing that, once again, the RMT had chosen to call strike action starting the day after we already had this meeting planned to try and resolve this dispute.
As we agreed when we both met on 25 July, our teams have met regularly to work through the various “method of work” options for our new suburban trains, with these meetings having been held on 7, 14, 15, 16 & 22 August. Those latter two meetings went ahead in good faith despite your notification of strike action just before commencement of the meeting on 16 August.
The outcome of those meetings is that the company has now determined that the optimal method of operation for the new Class 701 suburban trains from a safety, performance and customer perspective is “driver open, driver close”.
In our presentation and subsequent discussions, we highlighted that improvements from this method of work would be realised in the following areas:
• Passenger-Train Interface (PTI) risk;
• Door Irregularities;
• Ready-to-start against red incidents;
• Performance - reduced time to open doors;
• Performance - reduced time to dispatch train; and
• Safety, security and accessibility improvement through increased guard visibility throughout the train.
In your circular issued on 16 August (ref BR2/0146) you made a statement that “nothing less than an operational method that clearly protects the safety role of the guard will be acceptable to this union and our members”. The optimal method of operation would protect the safety-critical status of the guard by retaining a role in train dispatch, evacuation and protection.
It would also protect (and indeed improve) safety, security and accessibility, which is what you stated this dispute was about when you wrote about it in your editorial of RMT News in October 2017, shortly after the commencement of our franchise.

In line with the Framework Agreement dated 15 February 2019, agreement by RMT of changes to the operational mode, having now taken account of all safety and risk factors, would allow South Western Railway to confirm that on the introduction of any new or other modified rolling stock, each passenger train shall operate with a guard with safety critical competencies.
It was therefore extremely disappointing that, despite the above, it has now been stated that our proposal did not meet RMT’s aspirations or fully recognise RMT’s concern about the Role of the Guard and that, whilst “driver open” was not an issue, the only acceptable option to RMT is where the guard closes the doors.
Our assessment is that a “driver open, guard close” method of operation, as you sought for us to agree, would only realise two of the six categories of improvement identified as being applicable in the optimal method of operation scenario.
In our presentation we had proposed to continue meeting with your Guards Company Council representatives over the next two months to discuss details of the optimal method of operation as well as the interim requirements for achieving this. We particularly recognise that there are matters of detail to resolve in certain aspects of the optimal method of operation, including the proposed role of the guard in dispatch from the originating station as well as how to deal with certain scenarios such as assisting customers with reduced mobility at intermediate stations.
Our offer of those further discussions remains open which could also include further discussion on the RMT’s counter proposal in terms of method of operation, specifically the extent to which the benefits we have identified against the optimal method of operation are, or are not, realised.
I look forward to receiving your response. Yours sincerely”
 

Ethano92

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A open letter from Andy Mellors to Mick Cash

“Dear Mick,


ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY
I write following our meeting earlier today.

I reiterated the comments I made in my letter of 19 August that it is extremely disappointing that, once again, the RMT had chosen to call strike action starting the day after we already had this meeting planned to try and resolve this dispute.
As we agreed when we both met on 25 July, our teams have met regularly to work through the various “method of work” options for our new suburban trains, with these meetings having been held on 7, 14, 15, 16 & 22 August. Those latter two meetings went ahead in good faith despite your notification of strike action just before commencement of the meeting on 16 August.
The outcome of those meetings is that the company has now determined that the optimal method of operation for the new Class 701 suburban trains from a safety, performance and customer perspective is “driver open, driver close”.
In our presentation and subsequent discussions, we highlighted that improvements from this method of work would be realised in the following areas:
• Passenger-Train Interface (PTI) risk;
• Door Irregularities;
• Ready-to-start against red incidents;
• Performance - reduced time to open doors;
• Performance - reduced time to dispatch train; and
• Safety, security and accessibility improvement through increased guard visibility throughout the train.
In your circular issued on 16 August (ref BR2/0146) you made a statement that “nothing less than an operational method that clearly protects the safety role of the guard will be acceptable to this union and our members”. The optimal method of operation would protect the safety-critical status of the guard by retaining a role in train dispatch, evacuation and protection.
It would also protect (and indeed improve) safety, security and accessibility, which is what you stated this dispute was about when you wrote about it in your editorial of RMT News in October 2017, shortly after the commencement of our franchise.

In line with the Framework Agreement dated 15 February 2019, agreement by RMT of changes to the operational mode, having now taken account of all safety and risk factors, would allow South Western Railway to confirm that on the introduction of any new or other modified rolling stock, each passenger train shall operate with a guard with safety critical competencies.
It was therefore extremely disappointing that, despite the above, it has now been stated that our proposal did not meet RMT’s aspirations or fully recognise RMT’s concern about the Role of the Guard and that, whilst “driver open” was not an issue, the only acceptable option to RMT is where the guard closes the doors.
Our assessment is that a “driver open, guard close” method of operation, as you sought for us to agree, would only realise two of the six categories of improvement identified as being applicable in the optimal method of operation scenario.
In our presentation we had proposed to continue meeting with your Guards Company Council representatives over the next two months to discuss details of the optimal method of operation as well as the interim requirements for achieving this. We particularly recognise that there are matters of detail to resolve in certain aspects of the optimal method of operation, including the proposed role of the guard in dispatch from the originating station as well as how to deal with certain scenarios such as assisting customers with reduced mobility at intermediate stations.
Our offer of those further discussions remains open which could also include further discussion on the RMT’s counter proposal in terms of method of operation, specifically the extent to which the benefits we have identified against the optimal method of operation are, or are not, realised.
I look forward to receiving your response. Yours sincerely”

Have I correctly read that as saying "we want drivers to have full control of doors and that's not gonna change but we are happy to talk about what exactly guards will do now"
 

Goldfish62

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Have I correctly read that as saying "we want drivers to have full control of doors and that's not gonna change but we are happy to talk about what exactly guards will do now"
Seems pretty clear to me.

Would have thought a deal similar to what was agreed at GA could be struck in the light of this.
 

pompeyfan

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Seems pretty clear to me.

Would have thought a deal similar to what was agreed at GA could be struck in the light of this.

RMT are nervous that it’ll open the door for full DOO on the metro network by the looks of it. Also talk about making Desiros driver open, even though the TMS and ASDO isn’t clever enough to pick on a stop short by the driver.
 

winks

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Seems like Mellors is calling time on the whole thing. SWR dig their heels in - decision made.
 

Matt Taylor

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As I see it this is stage one. Diesels and 442s will be replaced in the next franchise and I fully expect the desiros to go too in order to have a uniform main line fleet including some bi-modes as per GA. The next generation of mainline stock will operate in a similar way to GA or possibly SN. Mainline guards such as myself will likely continue to be employed but in smaller numbers and with no door responsibility. Fortunately by then retirement would be an option for me but not one I would take unless it was a last resort.
 

theironroad

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As I see it this is stage one. Diesels and 442s will be replaced in the next franchise and I fully expect the desiros to go too in order to have a uniform main line fleet including some bi-modes as per GA. The next generation of mainline stock will operate in a similar way to GA or possibly SN. Mainline guards such as myself will likely continue to be employed but in smaller numbers and with no door responsibility. Fortunately by then retirement would be an option for me but not one I would take unless it was a last resort.

Must admit, this is what crossed my mind yesterday. Only thing I'm not sure on is when the Siemens contract for lease/maintenance is up for desiros. Was it a 20 year deal from new in 2002??
 

theironroad

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Seems like Mellors is calling time on the whole thing. SWR dig their heels in - decision made.

I bet they could have made the same decision 2 years ago when they took over the franchise as I doubt their overall thinking has changed.

Next phase is a battle with drivers over it all, just not too sure how much of a battle it will be.
 

WA_Driver

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I bet they could have made the same decision 2 years ago when they took over the franchise as I doubt their overall thinking has changed.

Next phase is a battle with drivers over it all, just not too sure how much of a battle it will be.

It won’t be a battle there is no unity within the drivers grade across the network. No good working to rule because too many drivers would still work free days & not every driver know what the “rules” are

Unfortunately Trainee/New drivers, Drivers coming up for retirement will see pound signs and county depot will see pounds signs and as far as they would be concerned it won’t affect them as they have an extra person on board the train regardless. Plus the vote for the pay deal will coming in before Christmas meaning the back pay would be in payslips for Christmas.....meaning drivers see it as that’s Christmas paid for!
 

Meerkat

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Would the driver deal be for all SWR drivers or just those doing DCO?
 

Meerkat

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Why, just the way union bargaining works?
Seems to me that DCO effectively creates a new grade or job description that should have its own pay rate.
I can see why the union wouldn’t want that (and the company would) in terms of making it more likely the non suburban drivers would then want DCO (and associated pay rise).
 

WA_Driver

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Why, just the way union bargaining works?
Seems to me that DCO effectively creates a new grade or job description that should have its own pay rate.
I can see why the union wouldn’t want that (and the company would) in terms of making it more likely the non suburban drivers would then want DCO (and associated pay rise).

Union bargaining. It’s a change in drivers terms & conditions and to change T&Cs money is used as bargaining chip. I believe under DRI DOO always been on the network just not DOO(p) (hoping someone can correct me or elaborate for me wasn’t around in them days :E)
 

387star

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Seems pretty clear to me.

Would have thought a deal similar to what was agreed at GA could be struck in the light of this.
Yeah it seems SWR want exactly what RMT agreed to on Greater Anglia ?
Wasn't aware SWR desiros had cab door open buttons
 

infobleep

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Seems pretty clear to me.

Would have thought a deal similar to what was agreed at GA could be struck in the light of this.
But I assume that SWR feel the GA deal only realises 2 of the 6 benefits and thus isn't that good. I means that's just 40% of what they could achieve in SWRs opinion. Not that I think they would publicly critise the GA deal.

My main issue was that all trains should have a guard on them. This is going to be the case.

How less safe is it for the guard when they close the doors?

Is it less safe for passengers when the driver opens and closes the doors?
 

swt_passenger

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But I assume that SWR feel the GA deal only realises 2 of the 6 benefits and thus isn't that good. I means that's just 40% of what they could achieve in SWRs opinion. Not that I think they would publicly critise the GA deal.

My main issue was that all trains should have a guard on them. This is going to be the case.

How less safe is it for the guard when they close the doors?

Is it less safe for passengers when the driver opens and closes the doors?
The “GA deal” has the driver both opening and closing the doors on certain routes, with guards retaining door competency as well. How did you understand it?
 
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