Thurrock bus network review

duncombec said:

So, you are not going to give us any names, just more invective about TfL and how we are taken in by them. I don't see any sort of blind following of TfL, more challenging your equally biased assertions.

I don't know if you're aware of the excellent londonbusroutes.net site, where I can see that, for example, the 18 has a frequency of every 4, the 38 every 3-4 as far as Hackney and the 73 every 5 (a drop, and still 4 in the peak), as well as many more with a daytime frequency of every 6 minutes. Many routes will also be joined by others over sections of route, meaning the number of bph will often be higher - much higher in some cases, and that's before looking at other transport modes. London Bridge, for example, is fairly easy to see nose-to-tail with buses in the morning peak: I recall counting over twenty one behind the other within the last few months.

There isn't an equivalent site for Manchester (if there is, please let me know!), but for much of its route the 192 is the only bus to run at any major frequency, and the same is true of a lot of the major routes. Likewise, from memory, in Birmingham - routes running at very heavy frequencies are often the only route available.

If you're not going to look at the whole picture, you are just as single-minded as you claim others are. More importantly, for this thread, Ensign were asking for ideas in Thurrock. Not grand plans to recreate Capital Citybus, largely rendering the whole TfL aspect irrelevant.

Incidentally, the X80 again had suspended journeys this afternoon as a result of the closure of one of the bores of the Tunnel, and even when reopened there were still severe delays due to resulting traffic congestion.

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The same industry professionals which are involved in NEBus, One-Bus and West Midlands Bus. I'm sorry I don't list every persons name who is in favour of deregulation! You only have to look on Twitter.

Manchesters busy areas are Oxford Road and Chapel Street. There aren't 20 buses nose to tail because the traffic flows better but there are a heck of a lot of buses in those areas and I believe some of the busiest areas. Infact, Wilmslow Road (continues onto Oxford Road) claimed to be the busiest bus corridor in Europe! (Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmslow_Road_bus_corridor). It has had a lot of changes but Oxford Road (if I counted the bph) would probably lead to still be the busiest bus corridor in Europe!

Manchester has the 142 and 143 both every 5 minutes (separately)
The Liverpool 82 group runs every 4 minutes, 86 group every 3 minutes. the 14s group (Croxteth) & 79 group are both every 5 minutes
Birmingham has the 4s, 45/47, 50 and 74 are all every 5 minutes or less.

There are likely a lot more out there but these are ones which I can remember or have found quickly. I know you say London can be similar with routes joining up to make more buses per hour but for the most part, London does run a little bit more on a hub and spoke compared to other UK Cities (they don't entirely use hub and spoke but they try to make a few routes link up and then encourage the hopper fare to go between routes whereas the rest of the UK tends to work off linking people where they want to go without connections generally into city centres so will have buses every 12 minutes but then they link up to to create a 6 minute service for a large part of the route where it is busiest).

The top frequency for most routes in the UK is 10 minutes for a single route but then other routes link into that or compliment it on busy sections. The London system is very different to this in that TFL want people to use a main corridor route and then change onto a more local bus to complete their journey.

I know that Ensign are after more local suggestions. Hence my suggestion about Lakeside routes!

markymark2000 said:

The same industry professionals which are involved in NEBus, One-Bus and West Midlands Bus.

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Well, they are bound to be in favour of deregulation as they might lose their jobs if it ends, or end up in a job which is less interesting where they earn less money.

markymark2000 said:

London does run a little bit more on a hub and spoke compared to other UK Cities (they don't entirely use hub and spoke but they try to make a few routes link up and then encourage the hopper fare to go between routes whereas the rest of the UK tends to work off linking people where they want to go without connections generally into city centres so will have buses every 12 minutes but then they link up to to create a 6 minute service for a large part of the route where it is busiest).

The top frequency for most routes in the UK is 10 minutes for a single route but then other routes link into that or compliment it on busy sections. The London system is very different to this in that TFL want people to use a main corridor route and then change onto a more local bus to complete their journey.

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The TfL Hopper fare has only been in existence for a few years and the network has only been partly adjusted to account for it. There are still several corridors with a very high frequency and there is a lot of scope for further rationalisation.

I don't see very high frequencies on major corridors as necessary or even desirable and the main reason for it is so that everyone has a direct bus to the city centre. A lot of the time it means low occupancy levels on the main trunk. Some places outside the UK prefer to have a more balanced mix of services so that people can make any journey in the city reasonably quickly even though they might have to change for the city centre rather than having to go in and out of the city centre like in most British cities.

radamfi said:

Well, they are bound to be in favour of deregulation as they might lose their jobs if it ends, or end up in a job which is less interesting where they earn less money.

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Depending on who you listen to, that will be your view eventually. Same with everything political. All the pre-nationalisation points which I have seen have been flawed and don't really provide anything different to the current situation but my view is of course based on where I like and the local arguments made. Where you live, your bus network could be very different and might have lots of holes in it and could benefit from council ran services. The bus network varies by city and the pros and cons of each must be worked out on a per area basis. In my opinion though, where a different model exists to the 'norm', that model should be kept to within the borders of where it operates otherwise, where does the line get drawn. It could be endless.

radamfi said:

The TfL Hopper fare has only been in existence for a few years and the network has only been partly adjusted to account for it. There are still several corridors with a very high frequency and there is a lot of scope for further rationalisation.

I don't see very high frequencies on major corridors as necessary or even desirable and the main reason for it is so that everyone has a direct bus to the city centre. A lot of the time it means low occupancy levels on the main trunk. Some places outside the UK prefer to have a more balanced mix of services so that people can make any journey in the city reasonably quickly even though they might have to change for the city centre rather than having to go in and out of the city centre like in most British cities.

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The TFL network has been hugely changed because of the hopper fare. All of the cut backs that are done have the same excuse 'those who need to change can take advantage of the hopper fare which was introduced by the Mayor of London' Literally ALL of them say that!

markymark2000 said:

The TFL network has been hugely changed because of the hopper fare. All of the cut backs that are done have the same excuse 'those who need to change can take advantage of the hopper fare which was introduced by the Mayor of London' Literally ALL of them say that!

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That's not an explanation for why the changes are made. That's an attempt to explain why few people will be disadvantaged by the changes.

duncombec said:

So, you are not going to give us any names, just more invective about TfL and how we are taken in by them. I don't see any sort of blind following of TfL, more challenging your equally biased assertions.

I don't know if you're aware of the excellent londonbusroutes.net site, where I can see that, for example, the 18 has a frequency of every 4, the 38 every 3-4 as far as Hackney and the 73 every 5 (a drop, and still 4 in the peak), as well as many more with a daytime frequency of every 6 minutes. Many routes will also be joined by others over sections of route, meaning the number of bph will often be higher - much higher in some cases, and that's before looking at other transport modes. London Bridge, for example, is fairly easy to see nose-to-tail with buses in the morning peak: I recall counting over twenty one behind the other within the last few months.

There isn't an equivalent site for Manchester (if there is, please let me know!), but for much of its route the 192 is the only bus to run at any major frequency, and the same is true of a lot of the major routes. Likewise, from memory, in Birmingham - routes running at very heavy frequencies are often the only route available.

If you're not going to look at the whole picture, you are just as single-minded as you claim others are. More importantly, for this thread, Ensign were asking for ideas in Thurrock. Not grand plans to recreate Capital Citybus, largely rendering the whole TfL aspect irrelevant.

Incidentally, the X80 again had suspended journeys this afternoon as a result of the closure of one of the bores of the Tunnel, and even when reopened there were still severe delays due to resulting traffic congestion.

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Actually Stagecoach own timetables show the full 192 times, & similar with other Stagecoach Manchester routes
https://tis-kml-stagecoach.s3.amazonaws.com/PdfTimetables/XJAO192.pdf

Wirewiper said:

I would look at re-establishing a direct link from the area (Tilbury Ferry?) to Romford, even though it would mean going into TfL territory. It would not be worth it going via Lakeside as TfL's 370 has the Romford-Lakeside market stitched up - Ensignbus would not be able to match the £1.50 fare. Perhaps route via Aveley and Hacton Lane.

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You may want to look into the history of the 370 route. TfL used to subsidise the evening service on Arriva's commercial service and only introduced their own contracted route when Arriva withdrew the commercial service. With TfL fares it has proved very successful.

I'm sure TfL would be very happy to withdraw their route if a commercial operator could make a success of it.

Deerfold said:

That's not an explanation for why the changes are made. That's an attempt to explain why few people will be disadvantaged by the changes.

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''We are making this change so that instead of the complacency and boredom associated with just catching one bus from A to B you will benefit from stretching your legs to change buses at some point with the added piquancy of wondering both when your next bus will turn up and also whether it will be in the time frame allowed in the Hopper Fare''. Ho hum, THAT sort of advantage

Deerfold said:

You may want to look into the history of the 370 route. TfL used to subsidise the evening service on Arriva's commercial service and only introduced their own contracted route when Arriva withdrew the commercial service. With TfL fares it has proved very successful.

I'm sure TfL would be very happy to withdraw their route if a commercial operator could make a success of it.

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Ah, but there's the rub - as things stand no commercial operator is going to take it on, as they cannot compete with the subsidised TfL fare of £1.50. TfL has a responsibility to provide a service up to the Greater London boundary, and will usually extend its cross-boundary routes to a major traffic objective if there is a good commercial reason for doing so and the link benefits Greater London residents.

Sometimes the cross-boundary services are also supported by the relevant Borough or County - Surrey supports a number of TfL routes that operate into its area and considers that it gets "good value".

Wirewiper said:

Ah, but there's the rub - as things stand no commercial operator is going to take it on, as they cannot compete with the subsidised TfL fare of £1.50. TfL has a responsibility to provide a service up to the Greater London boundary, and will usually extend its cross-boundary routes to a major traffic objective if there is a good commercial reason for doing so and the link benefits Greater London residents.

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Surely any replacement of a TfL service with a commercial one will always fail the test of benefiting London residents, with higher fares, no oyster acceptance, less frequent service and shorter hours of operation. Red buses to Lakeside certainly benefit London residents, ergo they are TfL's business, not Ensign's.

Busaholic said:

''We are making this change so that instead of the complacency and boredom associated with just catching one bus from A to B you will benefit from stretching your legs to change buses at some point with the added piquancy of wondering both when your next bus will turn up and also whether it will be in the time frame allowed in the Hopper Fare''. Ho hum, THAT sort of advantage

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Again, the changes are not being made because of the Hopper fare. They're being made because TfL is short of money. Nor has anyone claimed this is an improvement. I think the claims being made by TfL about the Hopper fare are quite disingenuous as for many longer distance passengers it's not so useful.

Wirewiper said:

Ah, but there's the rub - as things stand no commercial operator is going to take it on, as they cannot compete with the subsidised TfL fare of £1.50. TfL has a responsibility to provide a service up to the Greater London boundary, and will usually extend its cross-boundary routes to a major traffic objective if there is a good commercial reason for doing so and the link benefits Greater London residents.

Sometimes the cross-boundary services are also supported by the relevant Borough or County - Surrey supports a number of TfL routes that operate into its area and considers that it gets "good value".

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TfL has a responsibility to provide services useful to London residents. That may or may not cross the London boundary.

I don't expect any operator to take it on and compete with TfL. If any operator wanted to take it on, I'd expect it to discuss it with TfL.
However, if Arriva couldn't make it pay in 2007, even with a subsidised evening service, I'd be surprised if anyone could now.

Deerfold said:

Again, the changes are not being made because of the Hopper fare. They're being made because TfL is short of money. Nor has anyone claimed this is an improvement. I think the claims being made by TfL about the Hopper fare are quite disingenuous as for many longer distance passengers it's not so useful.

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Thank you for clarifying. No-one associated with TfL may actually claim changing buses is an improvement (yet!) but, as you say, the claims about Hopper can be disingenuous if not downright misleading sometimes. Personally, a 200 yard hike between 'connecting' bus stops, maybe even crossing a road, would sap my energy and I don't have an over-abundance of it any more.

Deerfold said:

I don't expect any operator to take it on and compete with TfL. If any operator wanted to take it on, I'd expect it to discuss it with TfL.
However, if Arriva couldn't make it pay in 2007, even with a subsidised evening service, I'd be surprised if anyone could now.

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From memory, the 370 became part of the TfL tendering programme at the same time as free child fares and other London policies were introduced, rather than simply being given up by Arriva.

Kevpbus said:

From memory, the 370 became part of the TfL tendering programme at the same time as free child fares and other London policies were introduced, rather than simply being given up by Arriva.

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I'm afraid your memory is faulty. Free bus travel for under 11s was introduced from January 2004. The 370 was not tendered by TfL until November 2007.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2004/january/new-year-new-fares

http://tangytango.proboards.com/thread/6227/route-370?page=1&page=

Any changes to Ensign's network is highly unlikely to involve extensions into areas they currently do not operate, especially seeing as they have recently withdrawn from Brentwood, the nearest town to them outside of Thurrock. They certainly wouldn't extend in to London for reasons as others have stated. I doubt they would extend their X80 further into Kent, simply because reliability would be awful due to the Dartford Crossing. I believe this was one of the reasons the X80 was taken out of Gravesend many years ago (when traffic was probably better too!). I think a half-hourly X80 would be well used, but again the Dartford Crossing could heavily increase costs.
If ever they did extend their operations, which is unlikely, I could imagine a route from Thurrock to Southend Airport (although the airport probably wouldnt allow them in), or a route competing with the First 100 to Basildon (Ensign have on a couple of occasions put on a free bus covering cancelled last buses on First's 100 to Basildon, even though they were not asked by First - admittedly thats different from putting on a whole new commercial route though)

Ensignbus have had to withdraw the Jetlink X1 due to Southend Airport denying them access to the Airport

I think most of the changes will be tweaks to improve reliability with better connections with trains at Grays, with maybe changes in frequencies on some routes, rather than a whole scale change of the network.

Indeed i doubt the X80 will be extended beyond Bluewater, mostly because of the Dartford Crossing issues when traffic snarls up, but also in normal conditions the X80 is timed to take 25 minutes end to end, using one vehicle, any extensions will require more buses being allocated adding onto costs

Statto said:

I think most of the changes will be tweaks to improve reliability with better connections with trains at Grays

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The bosses have been quite anti-rail on forums in the past. There is no Plusbus in Grays and Ensign didn't participate in the Brentwood scheme. So improved rail connections are unlikely.

They could extend the 83 at peak times to stanford le hope, corringham and london gateway/thames haven. Other than that, Thurrock is a very boxed in little area that seems to otherwise be miles away from anywhere else that it relevant to them to serve.

NLC1072 said:

They could extend the 83 at peak times to stanford le hope, corringham and london gateway/thames haven. Other than that, Thurrock is a very boxed in little area that seems to otherwise be miles away from anywhere else that it relevant to them to serve.

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It does seem to be. Ensign also received a large number of comments on its Facebook page, and most of the out-of-town suggestions were related to the possibility of their operating a service to Basildon via the hospital.

Extending a service to Basildon will be directly competing with the First 100.
Given Ensign previously operate the 100 late night departure when First does not turn up,
I am not going to surprise if they are launching a replicated 100.

radamfi said:

The bosses have been quite anti-rail on forums in the past. There is no Plusbus in Grays and Ensign didn't participate in the Brentwood scheme. So improved rail connections are unlikely.

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That’s ironic considering that they have profited handsomely from rail replacement over the years, indeed other than bus sales when they started off rail replacement was their bread and butter!

How about restoring the First 750 from Romford to Basilidon

alex397 said:

Any changes to Ensign's network is highly unlikely to involve extensions into areas they currently do not operate, especially seeing as they have recently withdrawn from Brentwood, the nearest town to them outside of Thurrock. They certainly wouldn't extend in to London for reasons as others have stated. I doubt they would extend their X80 further into Kent, simply because reliability would be awful due to the Dartford Crossing. I believe this was one of the reasons the X80 was taken out of Gravesend many years ago (when traffic was probably better too!). I think a half-hourly X80 would be well used, but again the Dartford Crossing could heavily increase costs.
If ever they did extend their operations, which is unlikely, I could imagine a route from Thurrock to Southend Airport (although the airport probably wouldnt allow them in), or a route competing with the First 100 to Basildon (Ensign have on a couple of occasions put on a free bus covering cancelled last buses on First's 100 to Basildon, even though they were not asked by First - admittedly thats different from putting on a whole new commercial route though)

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Didn't Ensign run a more direct route to Basildon recently? It trundled from Lakeside to Grays & Chadwell, but then scooted down the A13 to Basildon. (Scooted as in 60 mph1+ on a d/decker that I think was sold back to First Essex.)
I used that route to travel from Chadwell to South Woodham, it did save some time.
Probably not profitable though.

Bit of a strange registration, does anybody know anything about this?

• PF0001961/103 Registered
  ENSIGN BUS CO LTD
  
  Route: Redhill Bus Station to Dorking Station via Reigate, Brookham
  
  Service number: X32 ()
  
  Service type: Limited Stop
  
  Effective date: 02 Nov 2019
  

plebb11 said:

Bit of a strange registration, does anybody know anything about this?

• PF0001961/103 Registered
  ENSIGN BUS CO LTD
  
  Route: Redhill Bus Station to Dorking Station via Reigate, Brookham
  
  Service number: X32 ()
  
  Service type: Limited Stop
  
  Effective date: 02 Nov 2019

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Almost certainly in connection with Brockham Bonfire (3rd November) - probably the biggest such event in the area.

Hophead said:

Almost certainly in connection with Brockham Bonfire (3rd November) - probably the biggest such event in the area.

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So could be a temporary special service since it’s so far out of there normal operating area

'Hophead' is spot on - it is the annual shuttle bus operation for the Brockham Bonfire, which up until Buses Excetera's demise earlier this year was run by them (albeit numbered 32X rather than X32). 'Brookham' is a typo.

The regular daytime Redhill > Reigate > Brockham > Dorking (then on to Guildford) service is Compass Bus route 32, hence the choice of route number.