Virgin Restricting Access to Cycle Area on Pendolinos

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
If the platform staff have put you on, just make sure they have said they will inform the guard. If in doubt. Do this yourself. (Belt & braces approach).

Do guards not have any way of finding out what cycle reservations are on their train? That is a serious shortcoming if so.

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jfowkes · 12 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
if you have not encountered any staff at a terminal station and have been able to put your bike straight into the train, the onus is on YOU to find the guard of the train to let them know where you are getting off, regardless of whether it is the terminus or not.

I've never travelled with Virgin with my bike, is this made really clear to cyclists? It's certainly wasn't with EMT and I'm not expecting EMR to do any better. First-timers will be in for the same nasty shocks described where there's a surprise locked door between them and their bike. They won't know to stand by the door and wait for the TM. They're just as likely to walk/run along the platform looking for them, at which point they look just like any other passenger who has left the train.

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

jfowkes said:
I've never travelled with Virgin with my bike, is this made really clear to cyclists?

No, it isn't.

ashkeba · 12 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The issue is exactly the same as assistance. Reservation is compulsory, [...]

Bit of an aside, but I didn't think assistance was compulsory reservation any more, although it's encouraged. See https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/assisted-travel "Whether you book in advance or not, we’re there to help"

driver_m said:
As I’ve said, not one of our guards (TM’s) will move a train if a passenger wanting a bike off is stood literally at the side of the crew door. It should be obvious why your stood there and they have to check the full train. As I’ve said many a time. The James St fatality changed everything. No guard will move a train if someone is stood too close.

That was 2011 and I am sure people on this forum have said trains departed without loading or unloading their bike since then despite them being stood by it. As I said earlier, I do not think all train crew are as good as you.

driver_m said:
Some tips which may help you cyclists.

It would probably help you drivers to get that put on official train websites! Until then, almost no cyclists will know any of them. But I think they are not on official websites because some are unreasonable and yet more discouragement.

erk · 12 Sep 2019

jfowkes said:
I've never travelled with Virgin with my bike, is this made really clear to cyclists?

It is in my experience. Whether the door is opened by platform staff or the diriver, they've always said to make sure the train manager is aware. Only if the door is already open (e.g. at Euston) can you load your bike without encountering staff.

DynamicSpirit · 12 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Do guards not have any way of finding out what cycle reservations are on their train? That is a serious shortcoming if so.

In my experience, guards always seem to rely on being told that there is a cycle to be unloaded at X. I don't know if they have access to a list of the cycle reservations. But to be fair to Virgin, such a list might have limited usefulness because people can reserve and then not show up. Then you get complicated edge cases - such as me a couple of weeks ago: Travelling Euston to Lancaster, but ended up with separate Euston-Preston and Preston-Lancaster reservations. (Interestingly, that's the only time I've ever been aware that my 'attach-to-cycle' ticket was actually checked by anyone - as when I came to retrieve my cycle at Lancaster, I found both tickets had been moved and had some writing scrawled on them).

AndrewE · 12 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There is a bit of an issue on Pendolinos with people ending up "stuck" in the cycle area with bike when staff forget to let them out, as the cycle area has no passenger door controls. I do wonder if this is intended to "force" them out onto the platform, making it visible to the guard and preventing this issue, rather than specifically to keep people out of that area (as there's a secure door into the cab itself anyway, and this door is not particularly secure even with the mod).

jfowkes said:
I'd feel pretty awkward holding up an entire train so that I can get my bike. I've held up a 222 when it was locked in the bike section and I almost died of shame, even though it wasn't my fault.

Personal shame is perhaps not a suitable basis on which to base a policy, but platform dwell times are!

Bletchleyite said:
Putting your foot in the Coach A passenger door and waving frantically at platform staff is a much better way of ensuring it is dealt with if it comes to that.

Bletchleyite said:
The issue is exactly the same as assistance. Reservation is compulsory, so the staff should know when people are getting on and off without needing to be told. They just often get distracted/don't check/don't get told so the service is missed.

I have had exactly these problems travelling with a reserved bike to and from Nuneaton. Had to block the nearest passenger door and yell for platform staff assistance (and delay the train) to prevent it leaving with my bike (and other stuff that was on it.)
You reserve a bike space (mandatory) then load it where you are told to, so you expect the railway to have got its act together and allow you to get off with your property without unnecessary stress. It's enough to make you stuff it on the train through a passenger door and stand with it!

EE Andy b1 · 12 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
Some tips which may help you cyclists.

A couple more...

Get a Brompton. 8-)

Leave the bike at home.

Only joking people, sort of.

:lol:

pt_mad · 12 Sep 2019

There is usually a large sign on the revinyled 390s now on the Crew door which says ask Crew to load bike, with a bicycle symbol.

Deepgreen · 12 Sep 2019

If I am denied access to my bike (and thus i am unable to prepare it for alighting) until the train has arrived at my station, then I will ensure, from the platform, that the train waits until I am granted access, with no shame or embarrassment whatsoever. However, once I have been granted access, I then still have to retrieve my bike, meaning that I am inside the train, which may by now be late if staff are not in position on its arrival. This then leads to the risk of the train being dispatched with me still on board.

What a shambolic set up - yet another example of poor design leading to problems. A properly conceived bike area should have been included from the outset, with no driver distraction potential or anything else which would impair the operation of the railway. I am a cyclist, but whatever one thinks of bikes, their popularity as a form of transport has been growing rapidly for decades now and there is no excuse for the apparent 'afterthought' facilities that modern trains have.

jfowkes · 12 Sep 2019

Deepgreen said:
If I am denied access to my bike (and thus i am unable to prepare it for alighting) until the train has arrived at my station, then I will ensure, from the platform, that the train waits until I am granted access, with no shame or embarrassment whatsoever. However, once I have been granted access, I then still have to retrieve my bike, meaning that I am inside the train, which may by now be late if staff are not in position on its arrival. This then leads to the risk of the train being dispatched with me still on board.

What a shambolic set up - yet another example of poor design leading to problems. A properly conceived bike area should have been included from the outset, with no driver distraction potential or anything else which would impair the operation of the railway. I am a cyclist, but whatever one thinks of bikes, their popularity as a form of transport has been growing rapidly for decades now and there is no excuse for the apparent 'afterthought' facilities that modern trains have.

Hence my "should trains carry bikes at all" thread a few weeks back. Get serious about it or stop trying.

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
In my experience, guards always seem to rely on being told that there is a cycle to be unloaded at X. I don't know if they have access to a list of the cycle reservations. But to be fair to Virgin, such a list might have limited usefulness because people can reserve and then not show up.

Then the guard has gone to the right place, seen there isn't a bike and gone and dispatched the train - doesn't strike me as a major issue.

driver_m · 12 Sep 2019

jfowkes said:
I've never travelled with Virgin with my bike, is this made really clear to cyclists? It's certainly wasn't with EMT and I'm not expecting EMR to do any better. First-timers will be in for the same nasty shocks described where there's a surprise locked door between them and their bike. They won't know to stand by the door and wait for the TM. They're just as likely to walk/run along the platform looking for them, at which point they look just like any other passenger who has left the train.

Can’t speak for EMT as I don’t know what the set up is like over there. But if it’s anything like a 221 which we have it’s a case of just hang your bike up.

The 692 end crew door should not be left open at Euston. For whatever reason, it does happen often. That’s why in theory, no one should be able to just ‘load’ a bike on without seeing anyone.

I’m also taking a bit of a guess here, but I think the Guard can find out how many reserved bikes. Don’t take that as gospel, but I’m reasonably sure they can, after all, only so many reservations can be given out per train. So there has to be a way.

EE Andy b1 · 12 Sep 2019

I'm sure the bicycle situation will improve greatly when FIRST TRENITALIA start the West Coast franchise! :rolleyes:

cjmillsnun · 13 Sep 2019

GW43125 said:
May well have been the Wessex Electrics (442s)-think these had bike storage in the guard’s van (in the middle of the set)

Or one of the slammers. I'm sure they also had cycle storage in the van.

cjmillsnun · 13 Sep 2019

ashkeba said:
Unlike HSTs, the Coach A passenger door on Pendolinos is half a coach away from the bike door (see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:390039_at_Blackpool_North_on_15.08.18.jpg ), so the passenger door can easily be shut and locked before you realise that no-one is coming to the bike door.

Actually on an HST the nearest passenger door is at the other end of the TGS

jfowkes · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
Can’t speak for EMT as I don’t know what the set up is like over there. But if it’s anything like a 221 which we have it’s a case of just hang your bike up.

222 bike spaces are just behind the cab at the standard class end, behind a lockable door. If first class is at the front they don't bother locking it, but if standard is at the front it seems to be down to pot luck whether they bother or not. Now I check about 10 minutes before my stop so I can find the manager if they've locked it during the journey. But only after being caught out once. There's absolutely no indication near the space that this might happen.

DynamicSpirit · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
Before this descends into the usual nonsense. The reason for the restriction is to keep regular passengers out of there as it has been clear that the signs saying do not distract the driver have not worked or the fact that no one is supposed to access the train that way but very often people will try to. It might not seem the biggest issue in the world but the security of both us as a driver and the train itself is taken very seriously and it overrides the access requirements for someone to get at their bike.

Thanks for the staff viewpoint.

But that begs the question, why is the single locked door to the driver's cab that you have at present not sufficient? On the vast majority of trains I travel on, the passenger compartment extends to right behind the driver's compartment, so the only thing separating driver and passengers is a single locked door. You appear to be saying that, on Pendolinos that's not sufficient, and passengers have to be separated from the driver by two locked doors - with about 1/3 of the length of the carriage between those locked doors. Why? What's special about Pendolinos that the driver has to be far more separated and protected from passengers than on other trains?

driver_m said:
Passengers are not supposed to be in there and people who just turn up with bikes without a reservation are not supposed to get on as there have been many incidents of irate bikers getting angry about their booked bike been unable to get on. There is only room for so many bikes and under no circumstances can our way out of the cab be blocked. No if no buts. It does NOT happen.

Agreed. But the current situation seems adequate for that, as it generally prevents people loading bikes without a reservation. The changes Virgin are making only affect taking a bike off, not putting it on the train, so they aren't going to have any impact on whether too many bikes get put on.

driver_m said:
It’s more reassuring for bikers as no one should be able to go in there apart from staff, so no access to the bike and if anyone Is stood at that crew door, it should be obvious that something is remiss as the train cannot dispatch with someone stood at the immediate side of the door.

As a cyclist who often brings a bicycle when I travel with Virgin, I don't think it is more reassuring. I'd say it's less reassuring. If you have a cycle at present, you'll probably sit in one of the 'reserved - cyclist' seats right next to the cycle compartment (which by the way are a brilliant idea - Virgin definitely got that one right), and you can therefore easily check your bike if you need to. For example, if the train stops at a station you can easily poke your head round to make sure that someone else isn't removing your bike. By locking the door to the bike area, Virgin are making that impossible: You don't get to see that your bike is still there until you reach your stop and come to claim it.

driver_m · 13 Sep 2019

I’ll not quote the entire post above, but to respond. The simple answer is that it ain’t for passenger use. I drive a voyager regular enough and am used to hearing passengers there. I’m guessing your alluding to us being ‘high and mighty’.but the truth is, no one bar the cleaner should be in there. It’s technically part of the cab as it’s our only direct means of getting out without having to resort to climbing through the window in an emergency. The pendo should have had a separate driver door from day one, and I personally think it is the main flaw in an otherwise great train.

(For what it’s worth I strongly disagree with the pacer design for exactly the same reason. A driver should always have unimpeded access and I don’t know how it ever passed the design stage when the 140 first came out.)

CheshireCrusty · 13 Sep 2019

Surely it wouldn't be beyond the wit of someone to put a button either at the passenger door of coach A or indeed at the internal door between the passenger and bike compartments to be pressed by a cyclist with a bike to collect on approach to the station. This could illuminate a light on the outside of train (like the present door open lights), except it would have to be cleared by the TM/Guard only once he had given access to the cyclist to collect his bike.

Bletchleyite · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
(For what it’s worth I strongly disagree with the pacer design for exactly the same reason. A driver should always have unimpeded access and I don’t know how it ever passed the design stage when the 140 first came out.)

It was the norm in 1980s units except 150s. The rules later changed, I think the 175s were the first end-doored units with a separate driver's door.

ashkeba · 13 Sep 2019

CheshireCrusty said:
Surely it wouldn't be beyond the wit of someone to put a button either at the passenger door of coach A or indeed at the internal door between the passenger and bike compartments to be pressed by a cyclist with a bike to collect on approach to the station. This could illuminate a light on the outside of train (like the present door open lights), except it would have to be cleared by the TM/Guard only once he had given access to the cyclist to collect his bike.

Or even put such a button by the van door, with the clearance control inside. There must be dozens of possible better solutions and the railway does none of them.

Bletchleyite · 13 Sep 2019

It will be interesting to see, but I reckon First Trenitalia might well move the cycle spaces into the coaches to avoid this issue when they do their refurb.

CheshireCrusty · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
The simple answer is that it ain’t for passenger use. I drive a voyager regular enough and am used to hearing passengers there. I’m guessing your alluding to us being ‘high and mighty’.but the truth is, no one bar the cleaner should be in there. It’s technically part of the cab as it’s our only direct means of getting out without having to resort to climbing through the window in an emergency.

Slightly off thread - but raised a question in my mind:
Some years ago, as a passenger on a failed voyager unit with no electrics (a trailing unit on a double set) I was evacuated through the drivers cab. I seem to remember I used a door immediately by the driving seat and that passengers had to be helped down ladder like steps to the platform (Oxenholme). Was that the bike storage area door referred to or the emergency window exit?

Bletchleyite · 13 Sep 2019

CheshireCrusty said:
Slightly off thread - but raised a question in my mind:
Some years ago, as a passenger on a failed voyager unit with no electrics (a trailing unit on a double set) I was evacuated through the drivers cab. I seem to remember I used a door immediately by the driving seat and that passengers had to be helped down ladder like steps to the platform (Oxenholme). Was that the bike storage area door referred to or the emergency window exit?

Voyagers have conventional cab doors and there is no door in the cycle area (which is always left unlocked despite not nominally being an area for passengers).

CheshireCrusty · 13 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Voyagers have conventional cab doors and there is no door in the cycle area (which is always left unlocked despite not nominally being an area for passengers).

Thanks - it was the cab door I used.
I have now seen the photo of the cycle storage area on the Wikipedia page of the 221 and also Virgin' seat plan for coach A and I now understand the layout/issue with the cycle storage area forward of the external and internal passenger doors. Presumably the same applies to the first class galley at the other end of the set, but that is more routinely occupied by staff (but not always) - and as in the cycle storage/cleaners area passengers do have to pass through it to use the end passenger door.

Wychwood93 · 13 Sep 2019

cjmillsnun said:
Or one of the slammers. I'm sure they also had cycle storage in the van.

Indeed, either the 442 or assorted VEP/CIG etc. stock - come the ending of parcels traffic (1990/91? - I was in a ticket office at the time) the vans could be 'rammed' with bikes down my, Christchurch, end of the line. I did not count, but would estimate that at times up to 50 bikes in the van and the corridor of a 442, including mine! Very little cycle traffic down here now and I have not taken mine on a train since I retired - knowing that little space is now on offer and assorted other reasons e.g that if the little space is used, what do you do? Possibly some lost custom for the railway over the years and a transfer to aid local road congestion. Odd as it may be, the Bournemouth area is in the top 10 of the nations most congested areas!

driver_m · 13 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It was the norm in 1980s units except 150s. The rules later changed, I think the 175s were the first end-doored units with a separate driver's door.

Very much a retrograde step from the first generation units which all had crew doors afaik.

Bletchleyite · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
Very much a retrograde step from the first generation units which all had crew doors afaik.

Indeed. It was an odd omission posing unnecessary risk when a driver had to get out to use the signal post telephone.

LowLevel · 13 Sep 2019

driver_m said:
I’ll not quote the entire post above, but to respond. The simple answer is that it ain’t for passenger use. I drive a voyager regular enough and am used to hearing passengers there. I’m guessing your alluding to us being ‘high and mighty’.but the truth is, no one bar the cleaner should be in there. It’s technically part of the cab as it’s our only direct means of getting out without having to resort to climbing through the window in an emergency. The pendo should have had a separate driver door from day one, and I personally think it is the main flaw in an otherwise great train.

(For what it’s worth I strongly disagree with the pacer design for exactly the same reason. A driver should always have unimpeded access and I don’t know how it ever passed the design stage when the 140 first came out.)

It was cheap and reduced the size required for the cab. Instead of having to build in a door you just had a sign in the vestibule saying 'Passengers must vacate this area when requested to do so by the train crew'.

It's a complete pain in the arse.

Virgin Restricting Access to Cycle Area on Pendolinos

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