DaveLondon
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Buses of Somerset is not an operator - merely a trading name for First South West Ltd based at Camborne for Taunton, Minehead, Yeovil and Bridgwater depots David
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First Group: General Discussion
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overthewater
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Still all come under that one banner.
TheGrandWazoo
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Why are you surprised? Aren’t those local managers in possession of the most knowledge of the business and, with FWOE, it was even hinted at in the staff rag.
Buses of Somerset is just a trading name of First South West. It has been rumoured (repeat - it was/is a rumour without any confirmation so I didn’t repeat it here) that a management buyout for the entire FSW business was being investigated.
Xenophon PCDGS
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How many "Vantage" liveried buses are in that fleet? Has any more updated news been circulated about the Guided Busway operation since the posting above was made?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I am a somewhat infrequent contributor to "The Transport Game (UK)" on the Quizzes and Games forum, but will always remember a wag on that thread commenting of the previous convoluted operating name of the First operation covering the Bristol region as "First in Bristol, Bath and the Back of Beyond"..
Alexbus12
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There's about 30 Vantage buses. All operating from the Arriva depot without fault.. Though the staff and busway manager are all having to share a training bus as an office & staff room which isn't really ideal. 10 more Electric buses are due for Vantage next year and it's expected that these will to be operated from the Arriva depot
Goldfish62
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It's reported in the Telegraph that there are potential management buyouts being developed for all the Wales and South West, plus East Anglian businesses.
Kernow have recently dropped calling themselves First Kernow. Now either Kernow or Cornwall by Kernow.
TheGrandWazoo
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Yes - it’s cited in message #10315
Goldfish62
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Thanks, I missed that one.
There’s only the smallest First mention on the buses, and new web url for both buses and truronian.
overthewater
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Who's going to give them a loan? How will they pay it back. How will these new companies pay for new stock while paying off the loan?
Robertj21a
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Don't people set up new businesses all the time ?
It's something we're often quite good at in this country.
Goldfish62
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Perhaps ask the managers who recently bought Yellow Buses? From the most recent accounts, FSW is performing much better than Bournemouth was before the sale.
tbtc
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This is all standard investment stuff though, surely?
It's a bit like asking who is going to give someone a mortgage to buy a house, how they expect to pay that money pack and how they'll afford anything else in the meantime whilst paying off that mortgage.
If you buy a bus company with (say) ten million quid of annual revenue for (say) ten million pounds (AIUI the old "finger in the air" approach was a relationship between the value of the bus company and the annual revenue, so I'll use it here to keep things simple) then banks will look at the viability of that, decide whether they think you are safe enough to loan money to (and at what rate, depending on their assessment of the risks you are taking)... and you pay those costs whilst paying for various other things (staff wages, fuel, replacement vehicles etc).
Just in the same way that First have borrowed money in the past, First have leased vehicles, it's the way that most businesses operate.
(that's not to say that a management buyout will be better/worse for average passengers than the status quo, I make no judgement here, but it looks to me like a fairly standard buyout is being proposed)
winston270twm
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The MBO teams will have to have that all in place including a business plan for re-investment/growth before even
submitting bids to First Group.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As has been said by everyone else, this is standard stuff. The lenders will look to see the standard business plan viz income, costs, profits and whatever security is required e.g. realisable assets.
Not really getting what is difficult to understand.
overthewater
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I hope there have a plan for the pensions.
I just have a raised eyebrow, this will work out for everyone. Its a different world compared to 1989.
I just have a raised eyebrow, this will work out for everyone. Its a different world compared to 1989.
So all the expensive electric kit is going to be installed at a temporary depot for a company that likely won't exist in Manchester after the contract ends?
DragonEast
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Agreed. Whatever gets anything within FirstBus in the interim off First's books asap! Where it ends up eventually may be a different story, but of no interest to First Group.
Anything yet on the magic pensions solution? I thought that was the "problem" for management buyouts which were otherwise the "obvious" answer? Not surprised if an EC buyout is being considered, that rumour has done the rounds for a fair few years, and they've got shrinking down to a fine art, which helps. Essex would complicate everything no end so I'd expect a giveaway to Go-Ahead, eventually. The only real question is how long will it take? How patient can First Group afford to be?
Perhaps appearances (and, indeed, the passenger perspective) aren't so far off the mark: Eastern Counties being nurtured; Essex, left to rot; more or less!!
Anything yet on the magic pensions solution? I thought that was the "problem" for management buyouts which were otherwise the "obvious" answer? Not surprised if an EC buyout is being considered, that rumour has done the rounds for a fair few years, and they've got shrinking down to a fine art, which helps. Essex would complicate everything no end so I'd expect a giveaway to Go-Ahead, eventually. The only real question is how long will it take? How patient can First Group afford to be?
Perhaps appearances (and, indeed, the passenger perspective) aren't so far off the mark: Eastern Counties being nurtured; Essex, left to rot; more or less!!
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Robertj21a
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Some may thrive, some may die, as in any business venture. It will come down to the skills of the management, the potential for the area in particular - and a healthy dose of good luck !
Robertj21a
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The danger for First Group is those areas that nobody wants - Potteries is not likely to be high on anyone's list, but at least Essex has some possibilities.
overthewater
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D&G might just start new route. Look at West lothian no one will want buy that.
Personally feel like Glasgow will be the only Scottish operation that is highly sought after tbh although the costs with the LEZ doesn't help matters
First will probably run a load of extension leads around like they are for their allocators office/training bus
Jordan Adam
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With the exception of West Lothian the Scottish opcos don't have any real troubles. Granted Aberdeen Coach Hire is in dire need of new vehicles, however that's rather insignificant. It's just a hypothetical and we really don't know what will happen in the end. However my bet would be on either a management buyout or a sale (most probably to NX) which includes Aberdeen, Midland (including the 29/38) & Glasgow. I doubt any potential new owner would want West Lothian given how keen Lothian seem, perhaps an agreement could be found where Lothian axe the EX2 and pull out of Linlithgow and First pull out of West Lothian, it could then allow the many Streetlites in West Lothian to be transferred to Glasgow to help with LEZ.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The West Lothian question is the tricky one. With First being one business, it was understandable that they would dig their heels in. A smaller business that is less able to sustain loss makers is a different question. However, the fact that they are replacing e400s with still relatively modern, cheaper to run, smaller vehicles rather than a load of 2004/5 Eclipses tells you something.
The rest of Scotland's operations are certainly more desirable and that includes Aberdeen. I'm not clear why people don't think Aberdeen would be attractive to a purchaser?
I'm not certain why you're elevating your eyebrows or any other body part? This isn't 1989 - there's not the demand for passengers but then again, there's not the spectre of rampant on-road competition.
And yes, I'm sure they have a plan for pensions. Again, what makes you think that they haven't got one?
Potteries appears to have stabilised financially, to the extent that Streetlites can afford to be reallocated there. Of course, any sale can be tied in with another more attractive asset as a package.
overthewater
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Because First don't.
Robertj21a
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Yes, it's improved but it's always likely to be a problem geographical area with little potential. To make it a requirement to be sold with, presumably, profitable Leicester, is just going to reduce interest in Leicester.
While on the subject, has anyone heard anything at all about Oldham ?
Jordan Adam
Established Member
I agree, i can see why First have dug their heels in and it's still to some extent working in their favour but this can only go on for so long and i can be pretty sure Lothian won't be wanting to budge and are in a better position to "attack" (not literally). Given the frequency increases and new Lothian routes it makes perfect sense why they've moved 9 of the E400s and some Geminis to Glasgow, simple fact is West Lothian don't need all those deckers anymore, moving the Streetlites in mean there's no real loss to passengers and they're still in a good position if a Edinburgh LEZ comes about.
To any company wanting to grow Aberdeen is attractive as it's continuously expanding and there's many new route possibilities, keep in mind up until around 2016/17 when First starting loosing coach hire contracts and the then management messed about with pointless routes like the 16, Aberdeen was consistently bringing in £3.5M - £4M profit each year. Given the size of the operation that's very impressive. I'm certain that with investment in coach hire via the purchase of 10 new coaches along with a big network overhaul Aberdeen could get near that figure again. One of First's major downfalls in the city of late has been that they're too slow to adapt to change and don't listen to what residents want or feel... I won't go any further as this is the wrong thread for an "Aberdeen Rant"
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
All I would say about Potteries is that just because it's been mismanaged in the past (and yes, appreciate that growth potential may be limited), that doesn't mean it wouldn't be attractive to someone else. The same issues were apparent with Arriva in Burton and there was a willing buyer there. It just depends.
In Oldham, there was a buyer originally lined up. They walked away and heard nothing more since. Obviously, they have trimmed back the operation as well.