So I got on the train. I had no ticket. I got to the barriers which were closed. So I went to buy a ticket. I tried to change where I was coming from. They said I was lying and that they were going to charge me a penalty fare. I accepted (bearing in mind that I paid for the penalty fare which she then refunded) and then they asked me for my details. I gave them false info as why do you need my info for me to buy a ticket to which they didn't believe. I gave them the real info after intervention from the police. They then said they were going to give me an MG11, a court summons and a £2000 fine. What should I do?
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Court summons due to initially giving false details
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The fines for this sort of thing are rarely as high as that, but you'll just need to wait till they contact you, then consider apologising, promising never to do this sort of thing again and then see whether or not they'll now accept you at your word and settle out of court.
Bertie the bus
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You are probably going to need to expand on why a Penalty Fare was issued and then refunded. Also why and how the police got involved. Lastly, is this the first time you have been caught?
I don't know why the penalty fare was issued and then refunded. The police just came. I don't know where from or why. Yes this is the 1st time I have been caught on the train
Brissle Girl
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If you can set out the steps that happened more clearly it would help. From “I accepted” it gets rather confusing.
It would be useful if you could confirm a few more details. Specifically
1. Where did you travel to/from, and at what time? Can you recall the train operating company ('TOC') you were stopped by?
2.
3.
3.
However, from what you've said so far, it sounds like they've passed this on for investigation for prosecution because you gave false details, which is an offence under the Railway Bylaws. Having refunded the penalty fare, they're retaining the option I presume of also prosecuting you for fare evasion.
What will likely happen next is that the train company will write to you and ask you to describe what happened. When you reply, you can offer to settle the matter out of court, which they may or may accept (knowing where you travelled to/from and on which TOC will help us assess whether this is more or less likely). If they don't accept, they will move to prosecute you (though there may be further opportunities to settle out of court - often writing a couple of times is successful, or telephoning after the first letter). There is different legislation that they might use, but none of this would bring you a fine as high as £2000 - this is the highest theoretical penalty, but fines are based on your income level and are likely to be under £500.
Answering the questions above will be helpful though as it will confirm for us whether the train company have followed proper procedures.
1. Where did you travel to/from, and at what time? Can you recall the train operating company ('TOC') you were stopped by?
2.
From a member of staff or a ticket machine?
3.
Were you lying? If so where did you say you were coming from?
3.
When was this refunded? After you gave false details?
However, from what you've said so far, it sounds like they've passed this on for investigation for prosecution because you gave false details, which is an offence under the Railway Bylaws. Having refunded the penalty fare, they're retaining the option I presume of also prosecuting you for fare evasion.
What will likely happen next is that the train company will write to you and ask you to describe what happened. When you reply, you can offer to settle the matter out of court, which they may or may accept (knowing where you travelled to/from and on which TOC will help us assess whether this is more or less likely). If they don't accept, they will move to prosecute you (though there may be further opportunities to settle out of court - often writing a couple of times is successful, or telephoning after the first letter). There is different legislation that they might use, but none of this would bring you a fine as high as £2000 - this is the highest theoretical penalty, but fines are based on your income level and are likely to be under £500.
Answering the questions above will be helpful though as it will confirm for us whether the train company have followed proper procedures.
As @Brissle Girl says, it is a little difficult to follow your story. As I understand it:
- You boarded the train without a ticket. Was there any specific reason why?
- You arrived at your destination station and the barriers were closed.
- You went to buy a ticket. Where and how - ticket office, person at the barrier line?
- You lied about your origin station.
- The person didn't believe you and charged a penalty fare which you paid. How did you pay it?
- She then 'refunded' the penalty fare. What reason was given for the change of mind?
- You initially refused to give your name and address, then gave false details. Was this before or after the penalty fare was paid and/or refunded?
- BTP were called to attend. Was there anything in your behaviour that would have given reason for them to be called?
Edit: Looks like @cuccir has similar questions!
She refunded me and said that they were going to give me an MG11 instead after I paid by card. The police just came and told me to give my real details or else it will go to court which they ended up threatening me with anyway. Yes, this is the 1st time I have been caught on trains.
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Everything was closed. Nobody was at the stall.
I bought a ticket at the stall next to the barriers.
I paid for the penalty by card.
She said she wanted to MG11 me.
Before the penalty was paid, I gave false details and then I gave them the real details. Then it was refunded.
I wasn't rude to anybody at all. I even apologised to the lady before I gave her any details.
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If there was no working ticket machine nor open ticket office then you had done nothing wrong at that point.
Which was the correct thing to do.
So there will be a record that payment was taken and then refunded - this might help you a little bit since it shows intent to pay the PF.
There must have been something that caused her to withdraw the PF. Was it that the details you provided failed validation?
You are legally obligated to provide your name and address if requested in relation to a RoRA or Byelaw offence.
It's odd that BTP would have been called then.
What was the reason why you think you shouldn't have given real details?
I misspoke. Giving the correct details was the right thing to do
OK, understood.
Bertie the bus
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That isn't true. If you want assistance then have the good manners to state what really happened.
She issued a Penalty Fare
You paid
Some mysterious event you refuse to divulge happened
She rescinded the Penalty Fare and decided to prosecute.
The same applies to the police intervention. They don't just appear from nowhere for no reason. These events you refuse to explain are significant because if they included abusive or threatening behaviour the company is far less likely to settle the matter and the answer to your original question about what should you do is pay the fine once the case comes to court and you are convicted.
EssexGonzo
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Did she notice a different name on the card used for payment, perhaps?
There was no mystery event. The only reason I can think of as to why she rescinded the penalty was due to the false details. I cussed nobody. I didn't swear, no name calling. I abused no one or threatened anybody, I promise you
Yes, I believe that may be it
Probably because the card had a different name to what was said and the police called due to the thought that it was a stolen credit card so a PF wouldn't be applicable in this scenario ?
It wasn't a stolen card. The police were there before she saw the card
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Why were the police in attendance? I can only think you demonstrated threatening behaviour
Impossible. I was actually very polite and I even apologised before everything happened
Perhaps a police officer just happened to be there. It does happen. Occasionally. At 9/10pm at Snow Hill a member of staff would probably quite welcome their company.
Right, let's try to work out what happened here ...
You joined the train at Warwick. The booking office is only open in the mornings but there's a ticket machine which you should have used.
On arrival at Snow Hill the barriers were closed (which raises the question of what you would have done had they been open ...).
So you approached a member of staff to purchase a ticket.
Now it becomes a bit confused.
Whether you asked for a ticket from Warwick or from Moor Street she was entitled to impose a Penalty Fare since you had passed an opportunity to pay. Indeed she could have considered taking it further even at that stage.
Without knowing the sequence it's difficult to make sense of what followed.
But by "short faring" (by claiming you travelled from Moor St) and then providing false personal details you have entered into much, much more serious territory.
WesternLancer
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It's presumably possible that BTPolice were on patrol in the station (it was evening but may not have been too busy), Police note a passenger without ticket discussing their situation (as OP outlined) with staff and decide to take an interest.
Given Moor St to Snow Hill is such a short distance (some people would walk it) I suspect fare dodgers typically claim it as an origin station on arrival at Snow Hill and thus staff are immediately suspicious when they hear it and challenge that - as happened to OP - and then that would raise enough suspicion with truthfullness of other info given (eg address details) which if a passing BTP officer overheard or noted I would expect them to offer the TOC staff member assistance simply by making it clear to the passenger the seriousness of the situation. This is not the same as the BTP only getting involved in the event of threatening or criminal behaviour, it would simply be good policing practice for an officer on patrol IMHO.
I suspect the lesson to be learned is that had the OP been clear/truthful about the true origin station (warwick) they would have been given the basic penalty and that would have been the end of it.
Given Moor St to Snow Hill is such a short distance (some people would walk it) I suspect fare dodgers typically claim it as an origin station on arrival at Snow Hill and thus staff are immediately suspicious when they hear it and challenge that - as happened to OP - and then that would raise enough suspicion with truthfullness of other info given (eg address details) which if a passing BTP officer overheard or noted I would expect them to offer the TOC staff member assistance simply by making it clear to the passenger the seriousness of the situation. This is not the same as the BTP only getting involved in the event of threatening or criminal behaviour, it would simply be good policing practice for an officer on patrol IMHO.
I suspect the lesson to be learned is that had the OP been clear/truthful about the true origin station (warwick) they would have been given the basic penalty and that would have been the end of it.
From the various posts above,
You gave incorrect details and the station you came from.
You paid the penalty fare
They somehow realised your details were fake
The police told you to give your real details
You did
The penalty was refunded
They are now seeking prosecution
You gave incorrect details and the station you came from.
You paid the penalty fare
They somehow realised your details were fake
The police told you to give your real details
You did
The penalty was refunded
They are now seeking prosecution
Kite159
Veteran Member
Especially short faring by using a station which itself would normally be manned with ticket barriers
I didn't claim to come from Moor St. I asked the guy "Can't you give me a ticket from Moor Street?" to which he said no. Then he asked me where I came from. I told him that I had just woken up and was groggy so I asked my friend what was the name of the station we came from. Then the guy got angry and said "Don't try take the piss out of me". That's when the woman came back into the ticket office.
Brissle Girl
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I feel we are gradually teasing the information out of you, when it really would have been helpful if you had stated it all up front. Though I’m now confused as we seem to have both a man and a woman involved in the exchange (as well as a friend you were with - were they in the same situation?)
I think you’re mistaken if you think there’s a difference in asking for a ticket from Moor St rather than stating you came from Moor St, at least in the railway’s eyes, and almost certainly the Court’s eyes too. Unless you held a ticket as far as Moor St, the expectation is that you would ask for a ticket from where you got on.
Along with the point about falling asleep and not knowing where you really got on, which is likely to accentuate the view that you were chancing it and trying to wriggle out of things when caught, I suspect the response is going to be a harder line when it comes to prosecution. Others here are better versed than I am to give advice as how to handle the next steps, but I’m not seeing too many mitigating circumstances that would encourage the company to settle out of court I’m afraid. That is a personal view of the situation though. Others may disagree, and you can always try.
I think you’re mistaken if you think there’s a difference in asking for a ticket from Moor St rather than stating you came from Moor St, at least in the railway’s eyes, and almost certainly the Court’s eyes too. Unless you held a ticket as far as Moor St, the expectation is that you would ask for a ticket from where you got on.
Along with the point about falling asleep and not knowing where you really got on, which is likely to accentuate the view that you were chancing it and trying to wriggle out of things when caught, I suspect the response is going to be a harder line when it comes to prosecution. Others here are better versed than I am to give advice as how to handle the next steps, but I’m not seeing too many mitigating circumstances that would encourage the company to settle out of court I’m afraid. That is a personal view of the situation though. Others may disagree, and you can always try.
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