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TRIVIA - Things you saw travelling on BR that you don't see today

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Mark62

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Full length trains. Relief trains. Saturday seaside trains Station pilots, standby crew, standby loco, Extra unscheduled stops.. Everything needed to run an effective railway has gone.
All of these things have disappeared in the pursuit of profit. There's no other reason.
 
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03_179

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Full length trains. Relief trains. Saturday seaside trains Station pilots, standby crew, standby loco, Extra unscheduled stops.. Everything needed to run an effective railway has gone.
All of these things have disappeared in the pursuit of profit. There's no other reason.

Yep.
Often remember extra stops, Seaside specials, adex relief trains.

Also finding a freight loco on the front of a passenger train as it was nearby and it assisted the train to its destination.
 

RLBH

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Full length trains. Relief trains. Saturday seaside trains Station pilots, standby crew, standby loco, Extra unscheduled stops.. Everything needed to run an effective railway has gone.
All of these things have disappeared in the pursuit of profit. There's no other reason.
Most of that disappeared in the pursuit of cutting deficits, not increasing profit.

There is a distinction - even a state owned public service is expected to run efficiently. And many of the listed features had become an inefficient use of funds. If the said state owned public service was generating a surplus, it could certainly indulge inefficiencies, but it would probably be expected to operate efficiently and use the savings to reduce fares or improve service.
 

Mark62

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Of course. Fond memories. I remember being at Chester when a 24 brought our dmu in. It was a marvelous run to crewe
I loved those Saturday extras and their convoluted routes.
Favourite the 11.09 Scarborough to Sheffield via Barnsley. It stopped at Normanton.
There was an afternoon Scarborough to Leicester via Annlaby(excuse my spelling) curve.it ran non stop from Brid to Selby. Then to Sheffield via Baghill.
The Sheffield to Llandudno was a beauty. It ran via Huddersfield.
Of course the northbound Devonian ran non stop from Torquay to Derby on summer Sat's
Good memories
 

Mark62

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Most of that disappeared in the pursuit of cutting deficits, not increasing profit.

There is a distinction - even a state owned public service is expected to run efficiently. And many of the listed features had become an inefficient use of funds. If the said state owned public service was generating a surplus, it could certainly indulge inefficiencies, but it would probably be expected to operate efficiently and use the savings to reduce fares or improve service.
Actually they disappeared as the network was prepping for franchising. There isn't a railway network in the world that runs a profit.
Basically, tocs only make the money the make due to taxpayers handouts.
A public service is for the public just as the NHS is. And as we the public still subsidise the entire rail network we have a right to expect a public service. Of course we don't get that.
Things such as relief trains, relief crews are basic to the running of an effective and efficient railway. And such costs should be factored it to franchise bids. If course they aren't as tocs primary loyalty is to shareholders.
For example. Northern rail run at a loss and yet still pay a dividend every year to shareholders. Where does this money come from? They cream off the top. In my experience, dividends on shares tend to be paid when there is a profit. Three years ago they paid 21m in dividends to shareholders. Two years ago Northern rail handout to shareholders was 14m. Where did this money come from? It wasn't from profit. There's only one other place they got their money from. The taxpayer. Therefore, we the taxpayer are directly paying Northern rail shareholders a massive amount of public money every single year.
Regarding Saturday seaside extras. These invariably ran full all summer. Providing them was a public service.
Without taxpayers handouts we wouldn't have any railways in the UK. None. Given that we the public still ostensibly fund them do you not believe that those who take vast amounts of public money should be accountable and provide a truly public service where their primary loyalty is to the public.
You cannot have a private company running a social service effectively as their aims are diametrically opposed.
 
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RLBH

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Actually they disappeared as the network was prepping for franchising.
They disappeared from nationalisation (and even before nationalisation) onwards, because the railways have always had to operate in an economical manner. British Rail moved to a fixed formation railway in most places because it's cheaper to run a railway that way. That meant station pilots could be done away with. They ran shorter trains because the cost of running the long ones wasn't justified. The relief crews and relief stock sat around doing nothing most of the time. The excursion stock was used even less of the time, so was an obvious cut when the British Railways Board started taking it seriously.
There isn't a railway network in the world that runs a profit.
There are several, in fact, but I imagine you're not particularly interested in pure freight haulage systems.
In my experience, dividends on shares tend to be paid when there is a profit. Three years ago they paid 21m in dividends to shareholders. Two years ago Northern rail handout to shareholders was 14m. Where did this money come from? It wasn't from profit.
Of course it was. The government paid Northern Rail a sum of money to run the service, in exchange for the right to take the revenue generated by selling fares for that service, as calculated in a specified, complex way.

Provided that Northern Rail were delivering the agreed service, they were paid the agreed sum of money by the government. The government, in turn, doesn't much care whether the operator makes a profit, just so long as they remain solvent. Northern Rail could have worked the railway in a more expensive way, and made less money, but the shareholders would have been rightly unhappy with that.

The government could have stated that they wanted Saturday seaside specials, a second crew for every train in case the first failed to show up, locomotive-hauled trains for a station pilot to shunt around, and all the rest of it. And Northern Rail would cheerfully have provided a price for that. It would have cost the government a lot more, though, which would have to come from public funds.

There is a tradeoff between cost and convenience. Efficiency and effectiveness aren't the same thing, but ultimately someone has to draw a line in the sand and say that providing a certain level of service is unaffordable. It's certainly arguable whether the line should be drawn here or there, but a nationalised railway would still have to draw it somewhere.

Perhaps the TOCs taking a couple of percent of turnover in profit to provide the service isn't the best way to run things. But it's hard to imagine a not-for-profit railway providing the service in a significantly different way, because efficiency demands it. And the government, on behalf of taxpayers, demands that public money is spent responsibly - which means efficiency.
 

AndrewE

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Or Japan.
Very little is as it seems in Japan: remember the Olympus scandal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Corporation says
In 2011, the company attracted worldwide media scrutiny when it fired its newly appointed British chief executive (CEO) Michael Woodford, a 30-year Olympus veteran, for probing into financial irregularities and unexplained payments totaling hundreds of millions of US dollars. Although the board initially dismissed Woodford's concerns via mass media as "disruptive" and Woodford himself as failing to grasp the local culture, the matter quickly snowballed into a corporate corruption[5] scandal concerning alleged concealment of more than ¥117.7 billion ($1.5 billion) in investment losses, kickbacks, and covert payments to criminal organizations dating back as far as the 1980s.[20][21][22][23] One of the longest-lasting accounting scandals in Japanese corporate history,[24] the incident wiped out over three-quarters of the company's valuation[25] and led much of the board to resign in disgrace. Investigations were launched across Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States, culminating in the arrests of numerous corporate directors, senior managers, auditors, and bankers[6] and raising significant concerns over prevailing standards of corporate governance and transparency,[26] as well as the state of Japanese financial markets. Woodford himself, who stated he had received death threats for his role in exposing the cover-up,[23] was reportedly awarded £10 million ($16 million) in damages for defamation and wrongful dismissal.
and it was far from the only such event amongst their "world-leading" companies...
 

Czesziafan

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Actually they disappeared as the network was prepping for franchising. There isn't a railway network in the world that runs a profit.
Basically, tocs only make the money the make due to taxpayers handouts.
A public service is for the public just as the NHS is. And as we the public still subsidise the entire rail network we have a right to expect a public service. Of course we don't get that.
Things such as relief trains, relief crews are basic to the running of an effective and efficient railway. And such costs should be factored it to franchise bids. If course they aren't as tocs primary loyalty is to shareholders.
For example. Northern rail run at a loss and yet still pay a dividend every year to shareholders. Where does this money come from? They cream off the top. In my experience, dividends on shares tend to be paid when there is a profit. Three years ago they paid 21m in dividends to shareholders. Two years ago Northern rail handout to shareholders was 14m. Where did this money come from? It wasn't from profit. There's only one other place they got their money from. The taxpayer. Therefore, we the taxpayer are directly paying Northern rail shareholders a massive amount of public money every single year.
Regarding Saturday seaside extras. These invariably ran full all summer. Providing them was a public service.
Without taxpayers handouts we wouldn't have any railways in the UK. None. Given that we the public still ostensibly fund them do you not believe that those who take vast amounts of public money should be accountable and provide a truly public service where their primary loyalty is to the public.
You cannot have a private company running a social service effectively as their aims are diametrically opposed.

Absolutely correct. The Thatcher government had stopped short of privatizing BR because they knew that it would be unacceptable to the public, but the Major government decided to go ahead with it as a sop to the City after the Black Wednesday debacle, and the only way they could ensure their political support was by guaranteeing them profits from public funding, which was best facilitated by franchising, and would also generate an endless supply of lucrative work for the "magic circle" City law firms and big accountancy organizations who had heavy political clout. There was never any intention of maintaining a social railway.
 

Terry Tait

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That's why some people resent high fares, why should I subsidise City bankers and share holders? As far as I am concerned they can get stuffed.
 

Karl

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1970s. Arriving at Inverness early morning on a Freedom of Scotland railrover and being able to have a shower they had in the station. I'd travelled up on an overnight train from Preston. I was even offered a sip of whisky from a passenger in the steam heated compartment I was travelling in. After a refreshing break I then took the train, a class 26, to Kyle of Lochalsh and enjoyed sitting in the observation coach at the back of the train as the tourist guide pointed out all the local landmarks. I can't believe I was only 15 and did the week's rover on my own. Wonderful.
 
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Bald Rick

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1970s. Arriving at Inverness early morning on a Freedom of Scotland railrover and being able to have a shower they had in the station. I'd travelled up on an overnight train from Preston. I was even offered a sip of whisky from a passenger in the steam heated compartment I was travelling in. After a refreshing break I then took the train, a class 26, to Kyle of Lochalsh and enjoyed sitting in the observation coach at the back of the train as the tourist guide pointed out all the local landmarks. I can't believe I was only 15 and did the week's rover on my own. Wonderful.

Well you still could get the overnight train from Preston to Inverness, have a shower in the station on arrival*, and get a train to Kyle. Different rolling stock of course, and possibly different whisky.

* either a 2 minute shower to make the 12 minute connection, or a 2 hour wait.
 

Czesziafan

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That's why some people resent high fares, why should I subsidise City bankers and share holders? As far as I am concerned they can get stuffed.

The Blair government could have reversed or modified franchising if it had acted very early on in its tenure, but chose not to do so for entirely political reasons: Blair and Alistair Campbell wanted to get big business "on message" with the New Labour philosophy and would not do anything to upset the multinationals and the banks.
 

Karl

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Well you still could get the overnight train from Preston to Inverness, have a shower in the station on arrival*, and get a train to Kyle. Different rolling stock of course, and possibly different whisky.

* either a 2 minute shower to make the 12 minute connection, or a 2 hour wait.

Is there still shower facilities at Inverness? If so, how much is it today? I can't quite remember how much I paid back in the 70s. Does anybody remember?
 

Karl

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Delete (Apologies again. My mouse has an annoying fault of 'double clicking' when I single click.)
 

Bald Rick

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Is there still shower facilities at Inverness? If so, how much is it today? I can't quite remember how much I paid back in the 70s. Does anybody remember?

Yes there are, I saw them last month. Didn’t use them though so can’t advise on cost.
 

DavidGrain

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The Blair government could have reversed or modified franchising if it had acted very early on in its tenure, but chose not to do so for entirely political reasons: Blair and Alistair Campbell wanted to get big business "on message" with the New Labour philosophy and would not do anything to upset the multinationals and the banks.

You also have to remember that Blair is a Europhile and it was EU policy to separate track and wheels and franchising was thought to be the best way of doing this at the time. Also having the banks lease the trains to the franchisees took the capital cost off the public sector borrowing requirement.
 

Bald Rick

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You also have to remember that Blair is a Europhile and it was EU policy to separate track and wheels and franchising was thought to be the best way of doing this at the time. Also having the banks lease the trains to the franchisees took the capital cost off the public sector borrowing requirement.

And the break up of the industry meant that it put about 1% on GDP, purely because of the accounting. Quite helpful in terms of showing how Labour was good for the economy.
 

trebor79

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And the break up of the industry meant that it put about 1% on GDP, purely because of the accounting. Quite helpful in terms of showing how pretending that Labour was good for the economy.
Fixed that for you ;)
 

coppercapped

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You also have to remember that Blair is a Europhile and it was EU policy to separate track and wheels and franchising was thought to be the best way of doing this at the time. Also having the banks lease the trains to the franchisees took the capital cost off the public sector borrowing requirement.
Not quite.
The EU policy was only that separate /accounts/ had to be produced for the infrastructure and operations. This was to avoid the situation that monies that were intended for the infrastructure were used to subsidise operations - and vice versa. There was no requirement that separate organisations had to be created.
 

MarlowDonkey

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There was no requirement that separate organisations had to be created.

Allegedly though, when politicians proposed to recreate something similar to the "Big Four" with infrastructure and operations all under one roof, the Civil Servants said "No, because of EU".

It should have been feasible to create holding Companies which each owned an infrastructure subsidiary and a operating subsidiary. There would already have been a model for this in joint Railways prior to 1948 or 1923 where the operations may have been in the hands of just one of the owners.
 

DavidGrain

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Allegedly though, when politicians proposed to recreate something similar to the "Big Four" with infrastructure and operations all under one roof, the Civil Servants said "No, because of EU".

This sounds like another case of the Civil Service 'gold-plating' EU regulations that has cause so much anti-EU feelings in this country over the years
 

AndrewE

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This sounds like another case of the Civil Service 'gold-plating' EU regulations that has cause so much anti-EU feelings in this country over the years
I think that is correct too...

You also have to remember that Blair is a Europhile and it was EU policy to separate track and wheels and franchising was thought to be the best way of doing this at the time. Also having the banks lease the trains to the franchisees took the capital cost off the public sector borrowing requirement.
Also my memory is that Thatcher forced her view of how state activities, finances and accounting should be done on the rest of Europe, so that accountants and bankers could clean up in a sector of the economy that they had previously been completely shut out of there as well as here. Also that Blair was inexplicably devoted to Thatcher's policies, even when he had made manifesto commitments and inherited such a public dislike of the status quo that he could have been as radical as he wanted and had public support for it.
The consequence was of course that the UK railway has been milked by the financial (and legal) sector ever since, and that European countries have done all that they can to protect their integrated national networks and operations.
 

43096

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Actually they disappeared as the network was prepping for franchising. There isn't a railway network in the world that runs a profit.
Basically, tocs only make the money the make due to taxpayers handouts.
A public service is for the public just as the NHS is. And as we the public still subsidise the entire rail network we have a right to expect a public service. Of course we don't get that.
Things such as relief trains, relief crews are basic to the running of an effective and efficient railway. And such costs should be factored it to franchise bids. If course they aren't as tocs primary loyalty is to shareholders.
For example. Northern rail run at a loss and yet still pay a dividend every year to shareholders. Where does this money come from? They cream off the top. In my experience, dividends on shares tend to be paid when there is a profit. Three years ago they paid 21m in dividends to shareholders. Two years ago Northern rail handout to shareholders was 14m. Where did this money come from? It wasn't from profit. There's only one other place they got their money from. The taxpayer. Therefore, we the taxpayer are directly paying Northern rail shareholders a massive amount of public money every single year.
Regarding Saturday seaside extras. These invariably ran full all summer. Providing them was a public service.
Without taxpayers handouts we wouldn't have any railways in the UK. None. Given that we the public still ostensibly fund them do you not believe that those who take vast amounts of public money should be accountable and provide a truly public service where their primary loyalty is to the public.
You cannot have a private company running a social service effectively as their aims are diametrically opposed.
That was a party political broadcast on behalf of Magic Grandad and John McDonnell.
 

coppercapped

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Allegedly though, when politicians proposed to recreate something similar to the "Big Four" with infrastructure and operations all under one roof, the Civil Servants said "No, because of EU".

It should have been feasible to create holding Companies which each owned an infrastructure subsidiary and a operating subsidiary. There would already have been a model for this in joint Railways prior to 1948 or 1923 where the operations may have been in the hands of just one of the owners.
These 'allegations' don't reflect the complexity of the process towards the 1993 Railways Act - the events weren’t as clear cut as you make out. There is a good description of the events and the discussions leading up to the Act in the book “All Change. British Railway Privatisation” edited by Freeman and Shaw and published by McGraw-Hill in 2000. It is very comprehensive and I would recommend that people read it before posting their opinions

Five models for privatisation were put forward by different groups (the Cabinet Office, the DfT, the Treasury and outside parties) at different times. Very briefly these were:
  1. Regional - essentially re-creating the ‘Big 4’ (but could have been up to 12)
  2. Track Authority
  3. BR plc
  4. Sectorisation
  5. Hybrid of above.
So several models were available - and the supporters of each produced their own arguments. The was no ‘basic premise’ apart from the feeling that costs could be reduced and the quality of service improved if the private sector were to be involved.

There were all sorts of arguments within the working groups on how to handle the necessary on-going subsidy and it became clear that bidding for paths on a monthly or bi-monthly basis was not applicable for railways because of the inter-related nature of its operations. So on-rail competition was dropped. It was decided the best way to handle the subsidy issue — as it was accepted that continuing subsidy was inevitable — was for potential train operators to bid for a group of services. This meant that a clear figure was available for each area and any cross-subsidy between profitable and loss-making services was up to the individual operators to manage. This avoided the DfT having to identify costs and revenues on an individual service basis. This led inexorably to the second model.
 
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