Caught with a Zone 1&2 Travel Card... I was coming from Zone 4

NeilCr · 11 Aug 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
Early in this thread, in view of the length of time in question, people suggested consulting a lawyer. I think now would be the time to do that.

As has already been said, you may have legal cover if you are a trade union member or maybe from your household insurance, or possibly your bank account. If you don't have cover from any source and you're worried about the cost, there may be solicitors who can offer a free initial consultation, or (I think but I am not certain) the Citizens' Advice may be able to point you in the right direction.

As a CitA volunteer it depends!

We are a small office and have access only to a family law solicitor for free (20 minutes or so) advice. Other bigger and better funded offices may well be able to provide more options.

What we do have, though, is a list of local solicitors and what areas of law they cover. Definitely worth a call to your local office to find out if, and how, they can help

RailUK Forums

Trackman · 13 Aug 2019

to OP: I assume you've posted it back now, what did you write on the back?
Although SE is a fare-evaders paradise, they are more likely to settle out of court; especially if you tell them the truth.
It may sound like you are digging a bigger hole for yourself, but I think honesty is the best policy.

Trackman · 13 Aug 2019

BluePenguin said:
I realised that when I read further down in the thread

apologies, thought it was a general question rather than a reply to the original question.

SurfSteve · 13 Aug 2019

Trackman said:
to OP: I assume you've posted it back now, what did you write on the back?
Although SE is a fare-evaders paradise, they are more likely to settle out of court; especially if you tell them the truth.
It may sound like you are digging a bigger hole for yourself, but I think honesty is the best policy.

I've sent them their letter back, and a letter requesting an out of court settlement (written with the help of a Solicitor friend) - stating that its not in the public interest to prosecute, its my first time being in trouble with them, and the effect it could have on my career going forward.

I will post any update on here.

najaB · 13 Aug 2019

SurfSteve said:
...stating that its not in the public interest to prosecute...

It doesn't have to be. It would be a private prosecution.

furlong · 13 Aug 2019

najaB said:
It doesn't have to be. It would be a private prosecution.

Doesn't matter - when you're writing a letter like that you try to cover all the bases, and there are circumstances where that line of argument could lead to the prosecution being abandoned, so no reason not to mention it if there might be such grounds.

najaB · 13 Aug 2019

furlong said:
Doesn't matter - when you're writing a letter like that you try to cover all the bases, and there are circumstances where that line of argument could lead to the prosecution being abandoned, so no reason not to mention it if there might be such grounds.

Oh, I don't deny that. Just pointing out that, in itself, the lack of public interest wouldn't be reason for the prosecution not to succeed.

Haywain · 13 Aug 2019

najaB said:
Oh, I don't deny that. Just pointing out that, in itself, the lack of public interest wouldn't be reason for the prosecution not to succeed.

Or indeed, not to proceed.

furlong · 13 Aug 2019

najaB said:
Oh, I don't deny that. Just pointing out that, in itself, the lack of public interest wouldn't be reason for the prosecution not to succeed.

But in some circumstances it could be - I'd be surprised if this was such a case though from what's on the thread so far.

Controller1701 · 13 Aug 2019

SurfSteve said:
and the effect it could have on my career going forward.

I suspect that anybody dealing with this will not be worried about how it would affect your career, indeed if the person was so inclined then it could be thought that this is more a reason to take it further as some people may feel that this will be more of a punishment.

SurfSteve · 4 Sep 2019

Slight update to this, I'm going away on holiday for 2 weeks as of Wednesday and spent about 3 hours yesterday going round in circles trying to speak to somebody in the Southeastern Prosecutions Office to inform them of this, only to be told that the ONLY way to contact them is by post (which quite frankly is absolutely ridiculous seeing as its 2019). A lady at the payment line I was told to call even called me a dickhead, which was nice.
Since I sent my original letter back I haven't heard anything, this was about 3 weeks ago. Does anybody know how long on average they take to get back to you? (I know they have 6 months to put it before a court, but is this going to be the next time I hear from them?)

najaB · 4 Sep 2019

SurfSteve said:
Slight update to this, I'm going away on holiday for 2 weeks as of Wednesday and spent about 3 hours yesterday going round in circles trying to speak to somebody in the Southeastern Prosecutions Office to inform them of this, only to be told that the ONLY way to contact them is by post (which quite frankly is absolutely ridiculous seeing as its 2019).

It's not, really. Given that any correspondence might be used as evidence in a court case you really want things to be written down (so that you can review what you've sent so that don't accidentally say something wrong), and email is simply not secure.

SurfSteve said:
A lady at the payment line I was told to call even called me a dickhead, which was nice.

That was wrong and should form the basis of a separate complaint.

SurfSteve · 25 Oct 2019

Just received my summons through.
They're going after me for evading a fare of £6.60 + Prosecution costs of £135. Is there a fine on top of this?
I also finally have a contact number for the SouthEastern prosecution office and will be phoning them at lunch to try and negotiate an out of court settlement.
Letter was received 25/10/19 and I am due to be at court 8/11/19.

EDIT*
The number on the letter doesnt work for the Prosecution office. I've sent them a letter by tracked mail.

najaB · 25 Oct 2019

SurfSteve said:
They're going after me for evading a fare of £6.60 + Prosecution costs of £135. Is there a fine on top of this?

If you're found guilty then there would be, yes.

Islineclear3_1 · 25 Oct 2019

From previous posts, there is a "victim surcharge"

Haywain · 25 Oct 2019

robert7111a said:
From previous posts, there is a "victim surcharge"

On top of the fine, which is additional to the fare and the prosecution costs.

SurfSteve · 28 Oct 2019

I've written to them again asking to settle out of court, offering to pay whatever they need me to.
Failing that I will attend court and plead guilty and hope the fine is manageable. I will post all further updates here.

swt_passenger · 28 Oct 2019

SurfSteve said:
Just received my summons through.
They're going after me for evading a fare of £6.60 + Prosecution costs of £135. Is there a fine on top of this?
.

So have they not included the whole 5 months you originally mentioned?

gray1404 · 28 Oct 2019

They might offer you an out of court settlement yet. If they do then do make sure your case is withdrawn from court too.

If they don't offer you an out of court settlement or you don't hear back before the court date, get to the court early on the day. Ask the Clark to show you who is acting on behalf of the train company that day. You or your representative if you have one can approach them and ask if it would be possible to reach an out of court settlement then (before the case is called).

SurfSteve · 28 Oct 2019

swt_passenger said:
So have they not included the whole 5 months you originally mentioned?

Fortunately not! Unless that's what the Victim Surcharge is designed to cover?

gray1404 said:
They might offer you an out of court settlement yet. If they do then do make sure your case is withdrawn from court too.

If they don't offer you an out of court settlement or you don't hear back before the court date, get to the court early on the day. Ask the Clark to show you who is acting on behalf of the train company that day. You or your representative if you have one can approach them and ask if it would be possible to reach an out of court settlement then (before the case is called).

Will bare this in mind, thank you for the advice!

swt_passenger · 28 Oct 2019

SurfSteve said:
Fortunately not! Unless that's what the Victim Surcharge is designed to cover?

No, AIUI the victim surcharge that offenders make goes into a Home Office fund for general victim support, not your own prosecuting TOC, ie Southeastern. I also understand that everyone found guilty in court pays into this fund.

Haywain · 28 Oct 2019

swt_passenger said:
No, AIUI the victim surcharge that offenders make goes into a Home Office fund for general victim support, not your own prosecuting TOC, ie Southeastern. I also understand that everyone found guilty in court pays into this fund.

And I believe that the victim surcharge is a fixed percentage of the fine.

swt_passenger · 28 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
And I believe that the victim surcharge is a fixed percentage of the fine.

Seems so, according to Wiki it’s 10% of the fine value (£30 minimum, £170 maximum). All sorts of other tariffs for sentences other than fines of course.

SurfSteve · 28 Oct 2019

swt_passenger said:
Seems so, according to Wiki it’s 10% of the fine value (£30 minimum, £170 maximum). All sorts of other tariffs for sentences other than fines of course.

So £6.60 fare, £135 prosecution costs (£141.60) + £30 Surcharge (As 10% is lower than the minimum)? Or is there a fine im missing?

Spurs · 28 Oct 2019

SurfSteve said:
So £6.60 fare, £135 prosecution costs (£141.60) + £30 Surcharge (As 10% is lower than the minimum)? Or is there a fine im missing?

There's a fine too. Most likely around 50% of your weekly income (with £120 assumed to be your income if it's lower than that).

Llanigraham · 28 Oct 2019

SurfSteve said:
So £6.60 fare, £135 prosecution costs (£141.60) + £30 Surcharge (As 10% is lower than the minimum)? Or is there a fine im missing?

Yes you are missing the fine.
Fare + Court fine + Costs + Surcharge.

SurfSteve · 28 Oct 2019

Spurs said:
There's a fine too. Most likely around 50% of your weekly income (with £120 assumed to be your income if it's lower than that).

Thank you for this, very helpful.

Hopefully they end up agreeing to settle anyway. If they don't does anybody know if I once I plead guilty I am issued with the fine on the day? Or will I have to go back?

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2019

If you plead guilty on the day you will be sentenced there and then.

Here's a worked example for you, assuming that you earn £200/week. You can plug in your own numbers, though the lowest weekly income used is £120.

Fine is 50% of your income = £100
Discount for Early Guilty Plea (£34) (1/3 if pleading guilty at first appearance)
Total Fine After Discount = £66
Compensation = £6 (Rounds down)
Prosecution Cost = £135
Victim Surcharge = £30 (10% or min £30 for offences before 28/6/19)

Total = £237

I'm assuming from the compensation that they are only prosecuting you for a single offence and that the bench will look at the matter as less serious, hence a Band A fine of 50% of your income.

Fines are technically due on the day, though you can ask for time to pay if you can show that you are unable to pay on the day. Do not default on your court fines as once the bailiffs give in you will go to prison.

30907 · 28 Oct 2019

swt_passenger said:
So have they not included the whole 5 months you originally mentioned?

This is not the first time this forum has heard of TOCs prosecuting for a single instance when there has been a repeated offence.

jumble · 29 Oct 2019

30907 said:
This is not the first time this forum has heard of TOCs prosecuting for a single instance when there has been a repeated offence.

This is I assume because the single offence is provable easily as it was detected whereas on previous travel it might not be the OP using the card and there would need to be CCTV evidence and a lot more work to prove.
Also being a bit absurd it would be difficult to disprove if a traveller claimed that they might have had a 2 to 6 on one oyster in their pocket and a 1 and 2 on another which is the only one that was touched which were used on a previous day ?
On the day they are stopped it is easy because they don't have the second card
The programme on Fare dodgers is fascinating in regards to the filtered results of odd journeys that the computer can easily produce
I bet most of the fare dodgers have no idea of how this works against them

Caught with a Zone 1&2 Travel Card... I was coming from Zone 4

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