Warrington West - only two trains an hour.

stephen rp · 5 Nov 2019

What? Supposed to be three an hour (all the Northern services) but apparently Network Rail have knocked it back to two (one slow and the Airport service).

Yet realtime trains currently show the times for the other stopper as arrival and deparure at the new station.

This is the 19 departure from Lime St - it used to be 22 and it was assumed the earlier departure was to allow the extra stop when the station opened. If running to time it will just wait 3 mins at Warrington Central!

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AK1982 · 5 Nov 2019

Are the East Midlands services not going to be stopping?
Does anyone know how many trains a day will stop at Sankey once west opens?

Sprinter107 · 5 Nov 2019

stephen rp said:
What? Supposed to be three an hour (all the Northern services) but apparently Network Rail have knocked it back to two (one slow and the Airport service).

Yet realtime trains currently show the times for the other stopper as arrival and deparure at the new station.

This is the 19 departure from Lime St - it used to be 22 and it was assumed the earlier departure was to allow the extra stop when the station opened. If running to time it will just wait 3 mins at Warrington Central!

If it's got to wait 3 minutes at Warrington Central, maybe it should also stop at Sankey, instead of that station having a much reduced service. We're trying to encourage people to use public transport.

geoffk · 5 Nov 2019

Meanwhile some stations at the Manchester end of the CLC line only get a train every two hours.

gazzaa2 · 5 Nov 2019

The line is busy enough as it is. You're lucky if you can even get on a train during the peaks.

gray1404 · 5 Nov 2019

Yet another stop on the Airport service. At this rate it is going to become a really slow train.

Grumpy Git · 5 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
Yet another stop on the Airport service. At this rate it is going to become a really slow train.

It's not exactly fast as it is.

I'm lucky as I can use the EM service and change in Manchester.

stephen rp · 5 Nov 2019

AK1982 said:
Are the East Midlands services not going to be stopping?
Does anyone know how many trains a day will stop at Sankey once west opens?

No.
One each way a.m. and p.m. at Sankey.

Replies are not really relevant. Wasn't three an hour in the franchise?

Ianno87 · 5 Nov 2019

stephen rp said:
What? Supposed to be three an hour (all the Northern services) but apparently Network Rail have knocked it back to two (one slow and the Airport service).

Yet realtime trains currently show the times for the other stopper as arrival and deparure at the new station.

This is the 19 departure from Lime St - it used to be 22 and it was assumed the earlier departure was to allow the extra stop when the station opened. If running to time it will just wait 3 mins at Warrington Central!

Perhaps just get a feel for passenger demand/performance going the whole hog?

Being a brand new station, it's not going to have it's full demand of passengers turning up right on opening anyway

Greybeard33 · 5 Nov 2019

stephen rp said:
Replies are not really relevant. Wasn't three an hour in the franchise?

Yep, the Northern franchise TSRs specified 3tph from December 2017. But they also specified plenty of other timetable enhancements that have not happened and are not going to. E.g:

Second hourly service on the Mid Cheshire line
Second hourly service to Macclesfield
Fourth hourly service to Hazel Grove
Fourth hourly service on the Atherton line
Manchester Airport to Bradford service

Things have changed. The timetable planners are sadder and wiser than they were in 2015.

stephen rp · 5 Nov 2019

Greybeard33 said:
Yep, the Northern franchise TSRs specified 3tph from December 2017. But they also specified plenty of other timetable enhancements that have not happened and are not going to. E.g:

Second hourly service on the Mid Cheshire line

Second hourly service to Macclesfield

Fourth hourly service to Hazel Grove

Fourth hourly service on the Atherton line

Manchester Airport to Bradford service

Things have changed. The timetable planners are sadder and wiser than they were in 2015.

That's not comparable - they are all additional services requiring extra resources.

Network Rail kept bumping up the cost for building the station. The local council has stumped up a huge amount of money for the new station, built on a business case for three trains an hour, and now NR are welching on the agreement.

Grumpy Git · 5 Nov 2019

stephen rp said:
That's not comparable - they are all additional services requiring extra resources.

Network Rail kept bumping up the cost for building the station. The local council has stumped up a huge amount of money for the new station, built on a business case for three trains an hour, and now NR are welching on the agreement.

Almost as bad as promising new trains and turning up with a Pacer.

Djgr · 5 Nov 2019

Greybeard33 said:
Yep, the Northern franchise TSRs specified 3tph from December 2017. But they also specified plenty of other timetable enhancements that have not happened and are not going to. E.g:

Second hourly service on the Mid Cheshire line

Second hourly service to Macclesfield

Fourth hourly service to Hazel Grove

Fourth hourly service on the Atherton line

Manchester Airport to Bradford service

Things have changed. The timetable planners are sadder and wiser than they were in 2015.

stephen rp said:
That's not comparable - they are all additional services requiring extra resources.

Network Rail kept bumping up the cost for building the station. The local council has stumped up a huge amount of money for the new station, built on a business case for three trains an hour, and now NR are welching on the agreement.

Were Network Rail in a position to make such a promise?

InOban · 5 Nov 2019

It is quite clear that the DfT awarded franchise bids for more trains through the Castlefield corridor than it can reliably accommodate, particularly in view of the flat junctions. There's an analysis in Modern Railways. So the responsibility for the missing trains lies with the DfT.

gazzaa2 · 5 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
Yet another stop on the Airport service. At this rate it is going to become a really slow train.

It is very slow as it rarely turns up.

158756 · 5 Nov 2019

InOban said:
It is quite clear that the DfT awarded franchise bids for more trains through the Castlefield corridor than it can reliably accommodate, particularly in view of the flat junctions. There's an analysis in Modern Railways. So the responsibility for the missing trains lies with the DfT.

This doesn't require any extra paths through Castlefield though. This appears to be another case of an inflated business case built on levels of service the railway cannot support, and yet more reason, if any were needed, for the government to refuse funding for any further rail schemes.

Xenophon PCDGS · 5 Nov 2019

Grumpy Git said:
Almost as bad as promising new trains and turning up with a Class 230.

Corrected that one for you.

yorksrob · 5 Nov 2019

158756 said:
This doesn't require any extra paths through Castlefield though. This appears to be another case of an inflated business case built on levels of service the railway cannot support, and yet more reason, if any were needed, for the government to refuse funding for any further rail schemes.

Why ? This station is still apparently going to get a half hourly service - which is better than my local station gets, in spite of being well used and open since the 1840's.

Ianno87 · 5 Nov 2019

yorksrob said:
Why ? This station is still apparently going to get a half hourly service - which is better than my local station gets, in spite of being well used and open since the 1840's.

Why should the length of time a station has been bear any relationship to the service it recieves...?

By that logic Eccles or Rainhill should be the best served stations in the country...

Confused52 · 5 Nov 2019

yorksrob said:
Why ? This station is still apparently going to get a half hourly service - which is better than my local station gets, in spite of being well used and open since the 1840's.

If you really think that a semi-fast followed by a slow just ten minutes later each hour really constitutes a half-hourly service!

Greybeard33 · 5 Nov 2019

Confused52 said:
If you really think that a semi-fast followed by a slow just ten minutes later each hour really constitutes a half-hourly service!

In fact westbound the slow will be followed by the semi-fast 20 minutes later. Eastbound the slow will be followed by the semi-fast 10 minutes later. The gap between scheduled arrival times at Lime Street will only be 5 minutes, due to the semi-fast catching the slow; similarly at Oxford Road eastbound.

yorksrob · 5 Nov 2019

Ianno87 said:
Why should the length of time a station has been bear any relationship to the service it recieves...?

By that logic Eccles or Rainhill should be the best served stations in the country...

Do you think that only having two trains an hour is a good excuse for the Government not to fund any further rail projects, as per @158756's email then ?

yorksrob · 5 Nov 2019

Confused52 said:
If you really think that a semi-fast followed by a slow just ten minutes later each hour really constitutes a half-hourly service!

Not ideal admittedly, but better than nothing surely.

Glenn1969 · 5 Nov 2019

Two trains an hour doesn't necessarily equal a half hourly services. I do wonder how many people will get the slow train when the semi fast arrives at its destination at almost the same time?

Greybeard33 · 5 Nov 2019

stephen rp said:
This is the 19 departure from Lime St - it used to be 22 and it was assumed the earlier departure was to allow the extra stop when the station opened. If running to time it will just wait 3 mins at Warrington Central!

The stoppers that are going to skip Warrington West, the xx19 from Lime Street and the xx16 from Oxford Road, are the ones that precede, and so potentially delay, the EMR Liverpool - Norwich service, one of the most delayed long distance services through the Castlefield corridor. These stoppers do not currently call at Sankey and so the current timings for a "shadow" stop at Warrington West effectively allow 2 minutes recovery time at Warrington Central eastbound and Widnes westbound, in case of late running. The December timetable effectively maintains the status quo by continuing to skip Warrington West and formally adding 2 minutes dwell time at the subsequent stop. I would surmise that this has been done because the current punctuality performance of these services is poor and the risk of the extra stop making it worse is judged unacceptable.

The other stoppers, xx56 from Lime Street and xx46 from Oxford Road, currently call at Sankey, so the Warrington West stop will replace the Sankey stop with little effect on timings (the Lime Street departures change to xx55).

The TSRs specified that Sankey should retain its hourly service, so all the stoppers have had a stop culled relative to the franchise requirements.

stephen rp said:
That's not comparable - they are all additional services requiring extra resources.

Northern does have the rolling stock resources to run the additional services I listed. They have not been implemented to avoid worsening congestion in Central Manchester., i.e. the same reason for not introducing additional stops on the CLC stoppers.

AK1982 · 5 Nov 2019

Greybeard33 said:
The stoppers that are going to skip Warrington West, the xx19 from Lime Street and the xx16 from Oxford Road, are the ones that precede, and so potentially delay, the EMR Liverpool - Norwich service, one of the most delayed long distance services through the Castlefield corridor. These stoppers do not currently call at Sankey and so the current timings for a "shadow" stop at Warrington West effectively allow 2 minutes recovery time at Warrington Central eastbound and Widnes westbound, in case of late running. The December timetable effectively maintains the status quo by continuing to skip Warrington West and formally adding 2 minutes dwell time at the subsequent stop. I would surmise that this has been done because the current punctuality performance of these services is poor and the risk of the extra stop making it worse is judged unacceptable.

The other stoppers, xx56 from Lime Street and xx46 from Oxford Road, currently call at Sankey, so the Warrington West stop will replace the Sankey stop with little effect on timings (the Lime Street departures change to xx55).

The TSRs specified that Sankey should retain its hourly service, so all the stoppers have had a stop culled relative to the franchise requirements.

Northern does have the rolling stock resources to run the additional services I listed. They have not been implemented to avoid worsening congestion in Central Manchester., i.e. the same reason for not introducing additional stops on the CLC stoppers.

The 17.16 from oxford road to lime street stops at Sankey currently?? Will it continue to do so? As you say though this service in particular seems to run late and then delay the 17.41 East Midlands service to lime street, in fact quite often the northern service gets looped at glazebrook.

Greybeard33 · 5 Nov 2019

AK1982 said:
The 17.16 from oxford road to lime street stops at Sankey currently?? Will it continue to do so? As you say though this service in particular seems to run late and then delay the 17.41 East Midlands service to lime street, in fact quite often the northern service gets looped at glazebrook.

I was referring to the standard hour. There are variations in the peaks, one of which is that the 1716 calls at Sankey at you say. It will continue to do so in the December timetable (skipping Warrington West), but will then be one of only two trains per direction per day to stop there.

158756 · 5 Nov 2019

yorksrob said:
Do you think that only having two trains an hour is a good excuse for the Government not to fund any further rail projects, as per @158756's email then ?

I say that because a significant amount of public funding has gone into this project - how does a basic station cost £20m? If that was done on the basis of a 3tph service, would that money ever have been spent if the proponents had admitted the true level of service to be provided? We've seen this before with the Ordsall Chord and the promised extra services south of Manchester.

splashoutradio · 5 Nov 2019

AK1982 said:
Are the East Midlands services not going to be stopping?
Does anyone know how many trains a day will stop at Sankey once west opens?

stephen rp said:
No.
One each way a.m. and p.m. at Sankey.

Replies are not really relevant. Wasn't three an hour in the franchise?

I noticed the lack of service to Sankey when compiling a timetable for the line and wondered whether it was correct. I take it the ticket office will be closing in that case?

Bletchleyite · 5 Nov 2019

splashoutradio said:
I noticed the lack of service to Sankey when compiling a timetable for the line and wondered whether it was correct. I take it the ticket office will be closing in that case?

I'm mildly surprised the whole station isn't closing, to be honest. I guess it's because the short route between the two is along what is possibly a fairly isolated footpath? That said, plenty of pairs of Merseyrail stations are a similar distance apart. Is it perhaps being retained because higher acceleration DMUs on the stoppers or electrification might make it viable to serve both reliably?

Warrington West - only two trains an hour.

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