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Newbie terminology questions

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di9girl

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So, shortly hoping to have some guidebooks to help with what I spot but I need a little help with terminology:

Locomotives
Diesel Multiple Units
Electric Multiple Units
Coaches & non-passenger
Wagons

Where I am, I'm near two stations; Hampden Park and Eastbourne. I've really only ever seen the standard passenger trains, very occasionally an old steam train will come through but I find out after the event. And I've also seen odd trains going up/down on a weekend, like they're cleaning or working on the track, it's been awhile and I can't recall exactly what they look like. But that's about all we get down here.
 
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duffield

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This could stir up a hornet's nest of conflicting definitions! You'll find that for every person who states confidently that (e.g.) 'A DMU is x and y', someone else will post 'But what about z'?
To give you a taster, I'll kick with 'Multiple Unit' (Diesel, electric or other). A single coach diesel unit turns up. It can't be a DMU (multiple implying at least two coaches) then? The answer is 'maybe'. If it was designed and intended to run 'in multiple' then in fact it's typically called a DMU even if there's only one coach! However, if you couple two 'railcars' together (intended to always run as single coaches) then your two-coach train probably isn't a DMU...
This is the sort of thing that get argued about ad nauseum on this forum!

Summary: Rail terminology is rarely simple and often conflicts with 'common sense' and/or itself!
 

507021

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So, shortly hoping to have some guidebooks to help with what I spot but I need a little help with terminology:

Locomotives - provides the motive power for rakes of passenger or non-passenger stock.
Diesel Multiple Units - self powered stock powered by diesel engines.
Electric Multiple Units - self powered stock powered by electric, either via overhead wires or a third rail.
Coaches & non-passenger - coaches are passenger carriages, either locomotive hauled or as part of a multiple unit.
Wagons - non-passenger freight stock.
 

ExCommuter

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Stowmarket
So, shortly hoping to have some guidebooks to help with what I spot but I need a little help with terminology:

Locomotives
Diesel Multiple Units
Electric Multiple Units
Coaches & non-passenger
Wagons

Where I am, I'm near two stations; Hampden Park and Eastbourne. I've really only ever seen the standard passenger trains, very occasionally an old steam train will come through but I find out after the event. And I've also seen odd trains going up/down on a weekend, like they're cleaning or working on the track, it's been awhile and I can't recall exactly what they look like. But that's about all we get down here.

Given where you are most of the trains you will see will be operated by Southern. Wikipedia has an article with pictures of their current rolling stock (or at least current when the article was written) showing both electric multiple units (EMUs), diesel multiple units (DMUs) and also a "thunderbird" locomotive (one that is used to "rescue" failed trains). The wikipedia article can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_(Govia_Thameslink_Railway)#Rolling_stock - scroll down to see the pictures and formation diagrams.
 

di9girl

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This could stir up a hornet's nest of conflicting definitions! You'll find that for every person who states confidently that (e.g.) 'A DMU is x and y', someone else will post 'But what about z'?
To give you a taster, I'll kick with 'Multiple Unit' (Diesel, electric or other). A single coach diesel unit turns up. It can't be a DMU (multiple implying at least two coaches) then? The answer is 'maybe'. If it was designed and intended to run 'in multiple' then in fact it's typically called a DMU even if there's only one coach! However, if you couple two 'railcars' together (intended to always run as single coaches) then your two-coach train probably isn't a DMU...
This is the sort of thing that get argued about ad nauseum on this forum!

Summary: Rail terminology is rarely simple and often conflicts with 'common sense' and/or itself!

Hi duffield :) I suppose it's like any hobby, terms can mean different things!

Locomotives - provides the motive power for rakes of passenger or non-passenger stock.
Diesel Multiple Units - self powered stock powered by diesel engines.
Electric Multiple Units - self powered stock powered by electric, either via overhead wires or a third rail.
Coaches & non-passenger - coaches are passenger carriages, either locomotive hauled or as part of a multiple unit.
Wagons - non-passenger freight stock.

Hi 507021 :) Thanks, that helps quite a bit. So would the Locomotive purely mean the engine at the front ie what pulls the passenger coaches or the freight? And all the others I listed go behind that?

Given where you are most of the trains you will see will be operated by Southern. Wikipedia has an article with pictures of their current rolling stock (or at least current when the article was written) showing both electric multiple units (EMUs), diesel multiple units (DMUs) and also a "thunderbird" locomotive (one that is used to "rescue" failed trains). The wikipedia article can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_(Govia_Thameslink_Railway)#Rolling_stock - scroll down to see the pictures and formation diagrams.

Hi ExCommuter :) Thank you for the link, yes I've seen the '377' a lot here. So if I saw one, the number on it would be what I look up either in an app or in a book, and the 377 is the model so to speak, ie if we're comparing to cars the British Rail Class 377 Electrostar would equate to Ford (Electrostar) Mustang (377)?
 

Trainfan2019

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I'm only just vaugely knowledgeable about train types and classes too so you aren't on your own here. I've learned a lot through railforums.co.uk though as I was reading the forums for months before I eventually joined. The train class numbers e.g the 377 mentioned seemed bewildering at first as there's so many and the variants.
 

Domh245

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So if I saw one, the number on it would be what I look up either in an app or in a book, and the 377 is the model so to speak, ie if we're comparing to cars the British Rail Class 377 Electrostar would equate to Ford (Electrostar) Mustang (377)?

More apt comparison would be to call the 377 the "Bombardier class 377 Electrostar"

Bombardier is the manufacturer (=ford)
Class 377 is the type (=Mustang/fiesta/etc)
Electrostar is just the family name for that range and could equally describe several other types of train built in that era. Closest comparison would be the platform that the car is built on (eg ford global B-car platform)
 

390112A

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More apt comparison would be to call the 377 the "Bombardier class 377 Electrostar"

Bombardier is the manufacturer (=ford)
Class 377 is the type (=Mustang/fiesta/etc)
Electrostar is just the family name for that range and could equally describe several other types of train built in that era. Closest comparison would be the platform that the car is built on (eg ford global B-car platform)
Agreed
 

di9girl

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I'm only just vaugely knowledgeable about train types and classes too so you aren't on your own here. I've learned a lot through railforums.co.uk though as I was reading the forums for months before I eventually joined. The train class numbers e.g the 377 mentioned seemed bewildering at first as there's so many and the variants.

Hi Trainfan2019 :) I'll definitely read the forums and probably ask silly questions too, lol. I've got a couple of other hobbies that I've been into for years, and I'm still learning with those!

More apt comparison would be to call the 377 the "Bombardier class 377 Electrostar"

Bombardier is the manufacturer (=ford)
Class 377 is the type (=Mustang/fiesta/etc)
Electrostar is just the family name for that range and could equally describe several other types of train built in that era. Closest comparison would be the platform that the car is built on (eg ford global B-car platform)

Hi Domh245 :) Got it, makes sense now I compare it to cars lol.
 

507021

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Hi 507021 :) Thanks, that helps quite a bit. So would the Locomotive purely mean the engine at the front ie what pulls the passenger coaches or the freight? And all the others I listed go behind that?

No problem. :)

Yes, the locomotive hauls either passenger coaches or wagons. If it's passenger stock, there'll either be another locomotive or a driving van trailer at the other end. :)
 

Islineclear3_1

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More apt comparison would be to call the 377 the "Bombardier class 377 Electrostar"

Bombardier is the manufacturer (=ford)
Class 377 is the type (=Mustang/fiesta/etc)
Electrostar is just the family name for that range and could equally describe several other types of train built in that era. Closest comparison would be the platform that the car is built on (eg ford global B-car platform)

And a Class 377 is a "multiple unit" comprised of either 3 or 4 carriages. For simplicity, we'll assume Eastbourne only sees 4-carriage Class 377's. Each 4-carriage Class 377 multiple unit can be joined together to form 2 x 4-carriage Class 377 (total 8 carriages) or 3 x 4-carriage Class 377 (total 12 carriages).

And as a Class 377 collects power from a live 3rd rail (adjacent to the running lines), it is classed as an "Electric Multiple Unit" or EMU ;)
 

di9girl

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No problem. :)

Yes, the locomotive hauls either passenger coaches or wagons. If it's passenger stock, there'll either be another locomotive or a driving van trailer at the other end. :)

Ok, got it! :) I'm watching my favourite Canadian rail cam at the moment and see anything from 1 to 4 locomotives at the front and usually at least 1 or 2 at the rear on their trains, but it's a freight-only line so no passenger stuff.
 

di9girl

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And a Class 377 is a "multiple unit" comprised of either 3 or 4 carriages. For simplicity, we'll assume Eastbourne only sees 4-carriage Class 377's. Each 4-carriage Class 377 multiple unit can be joined together to form 2 x 4-carriage Class 377 (total 8 carriages) or 3 x 4-carriage Class 377 (total 12 carriages).

And as a Class 377 collects power from a live 3rd rail (adjacent to the running lines), it is classed as an "Electric Multiple Unit" or EMU ;)

Yes, I've seen 8 and 12 carriages and been on them. Usually, 12 is for the London Victoria route. 8 for Brighton, or Hastings/Bexhill-on-Sea (but I've never caught the train that way).
 

hexagon789

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A single coach diesel unit turns up. It can't be a DMU (multiple implying at least two coaches) then? The answer is 'maybe'. If it was designed and intended to run 'in multiple' then in fact it's typically called a DMU even if there's only one coach!

But the use of Multiple here isn't to do with there being multiple coaches, it's to do with being able to operate in multiple, so a single car diesel unit can most certainly be a DMU so long as it can work in multiple with other DMUs.
 

Steve Harris

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When I first started out some 30+ years ago, I invested in a set of Ian Allan Recognition Guide Books.

Just had a quick search online and found this...https://www.amazon.co.uk/DMU-Recognition-Guide-Colin-Marsden/dp/071103740X

Im sure that book is available from other retailers and there will know doubt be a book for loco's.

The books explained the differences between Class's etc.
(And probably easier to understand than some people's posts on here, lol).

Hope this is of some help.
 

di9girl

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When I first started out some 30+ years ago, I invested in a set of Ian Allan Recognition Guide Books.

Just had a quick search online and found this...https://www.amazon.co.uk/DMU-Recognition-Guide-Colin-Marsden/dp/071103740X

Im sure that book is available from other retailers and there will know doubt be a book for loco's.

The books explained the differences between Class's etc.
(And probably easier to understand than some people's posts on here, lol).

Hope this is of some help.

There's also a book by the same author called abc Traction Recognition. I'll put both on my to research further list :) Thank you!
 

di9girl

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But the use of Multiple here isn't to do with there being multiple coaches, it's to do with being able to operate in multiple, so a single car diesel unit can most certainly be a DMU so long as it can work in multiple with other DMUs.

I think you've lost me... LOL :lol:
 

Peter C

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In terms of the trains which clean the track, the ones which get rid of leaves and stuff on the tracks in Autumn/Winter are known as Railhead Treatment Trains. (Railhead = the top of the rail, Treatment = they clean the track). They look like some blue tanks on wagons.

Going to the original few questions:
A locomotive is a form of traction/motive power which is self contained. It's sole purpose is to move pieces of rolling stock around.
A multiple unit is a form of coach which is self-propelled. They are either Electric (Electric Multiple Unit, EMU) or Diesel (Diesel Multiple Unit, DMU).
A coach, often referred to overseas as "passenger cars", are the items of rolling stock which carry passengers.
A wagon, often referred to as "trucks" or "freight cars", are the items of rolling stock which carry freight.

There are some differences between older and newer railway terms here: a "wagon" was more commonly referred to as a "truck" back in the days of steam but now the tables have turned - "wagon" is used more often.
The terms "coaches", "carriages", and "passenger cars" all mean the same thing.


When you get onto trainspotting, you need to know how the different engines, units, and coaches are classified. To be brief about locos and units:

British Rail introduced a system called the Total Operations Processing System (TOPS) to classify the traction used on the railway network. This consisted of giving every engine and unit a number in a class. This had been done for years and years before BR, but TOPS brought it all to one centralised place. Essentially, say you have a Class 43 (a locomotive). The number would be:

43002
With "43" designating the class of the locomotive (Class 43), and "002" designating the individual engine number.
On the UK railway network, engines are given two-digit class numbers and units are given three-digit class numbers. The following system is used to designate unit numbers to classes and types of unit and engine:

Wikipedia said:
Locomotives are assigned classes 01–98: diesel locomotives 01–79 (originally 01–69), AC electric locomotives 80–96, departmental locos (those not in revenue-earning use) 97, and steam locomotives 98. DC electric locomotives were originally allocated classes 70–79 but this was modified in 2011 (see British Rail locomotive and multiple unit numbering and classification); the sole relic of this is Class 73 which continues unrenumbered, probably because it can be considered equally a diesel locomotive as it is a DC electric. One oddity was the inclusion of British Rail's shipping fleet in the system as Class 99. Diesel multiple units (DMUs) with mechanical or hydraulic transmission are classified 100–199, with electric transmission 200–299. Electric multiple units (EMUs) are given the subsequent classes; 300–399 are overhead AC units (including AC/DC dual-voltage units, and new DC only units with pantogaph wells allowing for conversion to AC), while Southern Region DC third rail EMUs are 400–499, other DC EMUs 500–599. Selected numbers in the 900 series have been used for departmental multiple units, mostly converted from former passenger units.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS#TOPS_numbering_under_British_Rail
It's probably also worth mentioning that sometimes the first number after the class number designates a sub-class number - engines or units with differences between batches, if you will, are given different sub-classes. Have a look at the Class 37s and Class 465s for examples - and the Class 66s - but with them you can be sat there for ages looking through all of them! :D


"Departmental" units and engines are also a relatively common sight on the railway and are worth mentioning. They are essentially engines or units which have either been taken out of service for testing purposes or built to the specific requirements of a engine or unit for testing use. The Class 950 and 97 are good examples, the former being very similar to a Class 150 and the latter being a re-purposed Class 37.


Yes, the locomotive hauls either passenger coaches or wagons. If it's passenger stock, there'll either be another locomotive or a driving van trailer at the other end. :)
I suppose it's worth mentioning that a Driving Van Trailer (DVT) is a item of rolling stock with a cab for controlling the locomotive at the opposite end of the train, but with no power source of it's own. The DVTs used on Chiltern Railways' Class 68 sets and LNER's Class 91 sets spring to mind as being examples of DVTs working with diesel and electric locomotives respectively.


I hope this helps in some way. :)

Thanks,

-Peter
 

hexagon789

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I think you've lost me... LOL :lol:

DMU meaning Diesel Multiple Unit. The word Multiple doesn't mean it has more than one carriage it means it can interwork with other DMUs. Effectively making a long train out if individual units which can be driven by one driver.

Hopefully that's clearer? Never was great at explaining things terribly well!
 

30907

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I think you've lost me... LOL :lol:
It will make sense eventually.... :)

You know the 4-coach trains on your local line? That's an Electric Multiple Unit, even on its own. Two units together are an 8-coach and so on. Up in London there are 5-car, and at Tunbridge Wells you might see a 3-car version.
Meanwhile the Diesel Multiple Units on the Eastbourne to Ashford line are 2-car, but there's a 4-car version of the same design up at Uckfield.

And the previous generation of EMUs had a 1-car version - it was called a Motor Luggage Van and its original role was to carry passengers' luggage on the Continental Boat trains to Dover and Folkestone (and possibly Newhaven) which vanished when Eurostar started 25 years ago. These were 13 and sometimes 14 cars long.

(PS For completeness, multiple units have "cars" in the trade - blame the Americans who elecrtified the District Line in London in 1904 for that!)
 

hexagon789

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(PS For completeness, multiple units have "cars" in the trade - blame the Americans who elecrtified the District Line in London in 1904 for that!)

Cars makes sense though really, it's just a contraction of carriages and considering how long it's been in use in the UK, I reckon we can't label it an Americanism either ;)
 

Steve Harris

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In terms of the trains which clean the track, the ones which get rid of leaves and stuff on the tracks in Autumn/Winter are known as Railhead Treatment Trains. (Railhead = the top of the rail, Treatment = they clean the track). They look like some blue tanks on wagons.

Going to the original few questions:
A locomotive is a form of traction/motive power which is self contained. It's sole purpose is to move pieces of rolling stock around.
A multiple unit is a form of coach which is self-propelled. They are either Electric (Electric Multiple Unit, EMU) or Diesel (Diesel Multiple Unit, DMU).
A coach, often referred to overseas as "passenger cars", are the items of rolling stock which carry passengers.
A wagon, often referred to as "trucks" or "freight cars", are the items of rolling stock which carry freight.

There are some differences between older and newer railway terms here: a "wagon" was more commonly referred to as a "truck" back in the days of steam but now the tables have turned - "wagon" is used more often.
The terms "coaches", "carriages", and "passenger cars" all mean the same thing.


When you get onto trainspotting, you need to know how the different engines, units, and coaches are classified. To be brief about locos and units:

British Rail introduced a system called the Total Operations Processing System (TOPS) to classify the traction used on the railway network. This consisted of giving every engine and unit a number in a class. This had been done for years and years before BR, but TOPS brought it all to one centralised place. Essentially, say you have a Class 43 (a locomotive). The number would be:

43002
With "43" designating the class of the locomotive (Class 43), and "002" designating the individual engine number.
On the UK railway network, engines are given two-digit class numbers and units are given three-digit class numbers. The following system is used to designate unit numbers to classes and types of unit and engine:

It's probably also worth mentioning that sometimes the first number after the class number designates a sub-class number - engines or units with differences between batches, if you will, are given different sub-classes. Have a look at the Class 37s and Class 465s for examples - and the Class 66s - but with them you can be sat there for ages looking through all of them! :D


"Departmental" units and engines are also a relatively common sight on the railway and are worth mentioning. They are essentially engines or units which have either been taken out of service for testing purposes or built to the specific requirements of a engine or unit for testing use. The Class 950 and 97 are good examples, the former being very similar to a Class 150 and the latter being a re-purposed Class 37.



I suppose it's worth mentioning that a Driving Van Trailer (DVT) is a item of rolling stock with a cab for controlling the locomotive at the opposite end of the train, but with no power source of it's own. The DVTs used on Chiltern Railways' Class 68 sets and LNER's Class 91 sets spring to mind as being examples of DVTs working with diesel and electric locomotives respectively.


I hope this helps in some way. :)

Thanks,

-Peter
Jeez... If I was a newbie, that lot woud only confuse me...

Hence why I mentioned the books above, that way a person can learn at there own pace. No need to try and run before learning to walk, so to speak !!

I'm not having a pop at you personally Peter, as your only trying to help, which is a good thing. But having experience with trainees in the past you really have to let them ask what they want to know when they want to learn it.
 

di9girl

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Gosh, too many quotes and replies to quote or else my post will look a huge mess but thank you, everybody. :D I'll be re-reading the replies so that it goes in :) It helps that I'm interested, I tend to understand and take things in when I'm interested. But that's why I'm here I suppose, lol.

I haven't got down to the local stations yet, just watching US/Canada cams online, I may check out some of the UK ones too just to see what's about.
 

hexagon789

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I haven't got down to the local stations yet, just watching US/Canada cams online, I may check out some of the UK ones too just to see what's about.

There's a good railcam at York, plenty of movements with a variety of trains and companies :)
 

duffield

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But the use of Multiple here isn't to do with there being multiple coaches, it's to do with being able to operate in multiple, so a single car diesel unit can most certainly be a DMU so long as it can work in multiple with other DMUs.
I thought that's *exactly* what I was pointing out, that some people *incorrectly* assume 'multiple' means at least two coaches.
 
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