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Heritage train driver
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The route to mainline driving is the same for everyone.
OPC/TOC assessments
MMI
DMI (for TOC/FOC employment)
Medical
PTS
Rules
Traction
Practical/Manual handling <----- The driving bit (225 hrs minimum)
Assessment <--- ICA/Part 6/Part C/[insert TOC nomenclature]
OPC/TOC assessments
MMI
DMI (for TOC/FOC employment)
Medical
PTS
Rules
Traction
Practical/Manual handling <----- The driving bit (225 hrs minimum)
Assessment <--- ICA/Part 6/Part C/[insert TOC nomenclature]
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Dieseldriver
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No...
Juliet Barvo
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Never did Manual handling. Did do Routes, however. Would be helpful to have done "How to get a sleeping drunk off before ECS to Depot".
Juliet Barvo
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Oh, you meant "Practical Handling"... Tomato Tomarto... lets call the whole thing off...
lammergeier
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Deleted
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I've edited for clarity. Certainly didn't mean lifting boxes. Drivers, work for a living... The heaviest thing I lift is my pay cheque
<LIKE>
Different hours handling for each different company .. I.e scotrail 263 I think it is .. dB cargo 150 .
225 hours is the RSSB Minimum. It also includes 40hrs minimum dark driving too. Again, this is directly from the RSSB and is a specified Minimum.
All the rules, regulations, guides, standards, partridges and indeed pear trees can be found on their website. Anybody wanting to play with 'fast' moving aluminum sardine cans needs to go through very specific training and meet various criteria.
You cannot become a mainline driver from a heritage route, 500hrs on TSW2020, or because you have a Hornby R186 Signal box in your attic.
Will it change...
You can take the assessments privately and DB Shenker run them from time to time. (not sure if this includes the MMI)
DMI (Driver Manager Interview) is your job interview for TOC/FOC employment because they are the ones who provide your training. FOC's I am unsure of as I don't know if they take trainees and run rules courses etc but I seem to remember that a FOC recently recruited for Trainees so maybe that is changing. High Speed (HS1) only takes fully qualified Drivers and are employed by Southeastern.
PTS/Rules... Might be changing in the long term future. It is slowly leaning towards becoming independent of the TOCs and there may be a possibility that you could pay for your own training. This is a little more than pure speculation but its still a way off and in railway terms that is a looooong way off.
I don't think there will ever be a way to get the practical side without being employed by a TOC/FOC. There is a lot involved behind the scenes and you need a lot of resources and money to train a Driver. If you had millions and millions of pounds I suppose you could start an open access operator, bid on a few paths and use it as a mainline training school. You would either go out of business in a week or make an absolute fortune.
It's also worth noting that you can't suddenly become a Heritage Driver either; even if you are a fully qualified Mainline Driver. They also have various rules and competency hoops you need to jump through too.
If you worked on a heritage railway, I certainly believe you would have the required skillset, mentality and experience that would give you a good foundation at each stage.
Each part, at some point, has been discussed on this forum. The magnifying glass isn't a zoom function and I would recommend those wanting further information to use it.
All the rules, regulations, guides, standards, partridges and indeed pear trees can be found on their website. Anybody wanting to play with 'fast' moving aluminum sardine cans needs to go through very specific training and meet various criteria.
You cannot become a mainline driver from a heritage route, 500hrs on TSW2020, or because you have a Hornby R186 Signal box in your attic.
Will it change...
You can take the assessments privately and DB Shenker run them from time to time. (not sure if this includes the MMI)
DMI (Driver Manager Interview) is your job interview for TOC/FOC employment because they are the ones who provide your training. FOC's I am unsure of as I don't know if they take trainees and run rules courses etc but I seem to remember that a FOC recently recruited for Trainees so maybe that is changing. High Speed (HS1) only takes fully qualified Drivers and are employed by Southeastern.
PTS/Rules... Might be changing in the long term future. It is slowly leaning towards becoming independent of the TOCs and there may be a possibility that you could pay for your own training. This is a little more than pure speculation but its still a way off and in railway terms that is a looooong way off.
I don't think there will ever be a way to get the practical side without being employed by a TOC/FOC. There is a lot involved behind the scenes and you need a lot of resources and money to train a Driver. If you had millions and millions of pounds I suppose you could start an open access operator, bid on a few paths and use it as a mainline training school. You would either go out of business in a week or make an absolute fortune.
It's also worth noting that you can't suddenly become a Heritage Driver either; even if you are a fully qualified Mainline Driver. They also have various rules and competency hoops you need to jump through too.
If you worked on a heritage railway, I certainly believe you would have the required skillset, mentality and experience that would give you a good foundation at each stage.
Each part, at some point, has been discussed on this forum. The magnifying glass isn't a zoom function and I would recommend those wanting further information to use it.
RBSN
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It would take you years and years to become a heritage driver. I don’t believe you can just go from the street to learning to drive. Pretty sure you start as a cleaner or such and work your way up.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Even on the little railway I volunteer to become a driver you will have to start as a cleaner/fireman and prove yourself there, learning the Rules, being available nearly every running day, etc. One friend has done it and it has taken him 2 years, even though we are short of footplate volunteers.
Another local line I was told to expect it to take 5 years!!
tiptoptaff
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5 years would be considered lightening quick at some of the larger railways!
Atishyou
Member
It's 150 + simulator time (classed as 75 hours), so 225 in total.
theironroad
Established Member
I think this was discussed in another thread and while I don't see a problem in principle starting as a cleaner then fireman etc, I think 5 years, even 2 is going to put off people who really just want to drive. This will apply especially to people going to heritage railways if retiring early etc..
At the end of the day it will be supply and demand. If the supply of drivers is not there and the railway has to cancel trains then they've two options, either change the progression rules or ultimately lose business if they regularly have no trains because of lack of drivers.
Increasing ORR interest will mean that heritage drivers will need to be on top form even more than they are now and jump and tick the ORR boxes for a whole whole of h&s stuff, all without any pay...
It would be a funny heritage railway and business model that was so obstinate to say that it's either the way it's always been done with a five year progression or no way and would rather go out of business.
All very true.
I wonder if at some stage there will be a requirement introduced for potential heritage railway drivers to sit the same aptitude tests as mainline drivers.
After all, both heritage and mainline drivers are driving trains carrying the fare paying public.
I understand from friends involved in the sector the competency/training of heritage drivers is already a lot more closely monitored nowadays than it was previously, and is subject to external audit.
tiptoptaff
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Slight OT...5years is off-putting for people so be it. Long term, the heritage sector needs longevity in its volunteers. If you stick out the few years it takes to progress it shows you're there for the right reasons, not just to have a go driving a steam engine. There are paid for experience days offered for that.
Heritage railways need people who will be sticking around long term, not people who want to turn up, drive some trains every so often to live out a fantasy and disappear.
Incidentally, there was a letter to the editor in this month's ASLEF journal from a driver who'd retired, gone to the SDR, and was told he'd have to start at the bottom like everyone else. He had steam experience so would likely have progressed quicker than others around him. But he wasn't willing to put the time in to find that out. And I'm pretty sure the SDR won't be missing him
Heritage railways need people who will be sticking around long term, not people who want to turn up, drive some trains every so often to live out a fantasy and disappear.
Incidentally, there was a letter to the editor in this month's ASLEF journal from a driver who'd retired, gone to the SDR, and was told he'd have to start at the bottom like everyone else. He had steam experience so would likely have progressed quicker than others around him. But he wasn't willing to put the time in to find that out. And I'm pretty sure the SDR won't be missing him
theironroad
Established Member
Well Heritage railways can hardly complain then if they don't have the driver's then.
There's nothing to say that someone recruited to heritage driving from scratch won't stay around a long time, but in your eyes they'd just be living out a fantasy because they don't want a 5 year apprenticeship.
tiptoptaff
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If people went straight to drivers, who'd fire? Who'd clean? How would you know if your fireman was doing what they should be?
The understanding and feeling required to drive only comes with time and experience, gained over that "apprenticeship" period.
Note that they're not saying they need more drivers - could easily promote the firemen they've already got - it's a need for more volunteers
The understanding and feeling required to drive only comes with time and experience, gained over that "apprenticeship" period.
Note that they're not saying they need more drivers - could easily promote the firemen they've already got - it's a need for more volunteers
Sim driving is only good for out of course situations, I’m surprised DB get away with it.
The discussion has been had before and there was no clear conclusion. Who'd fire ? The Fireman; Who'd clean ? The Cleaner.
Imagine if the Heritage mentality was extended to mainline driving. 5yrs before someone could drive a train based on the principle that they have to earn it, learn how to clean a toilet first, how to fix a bogie, collect tickets, work in a shop, sweep a platform, dispatch a train, and gawd knows what else before they can be let loose on the footplate. I know that there is a small degree of history behind it and back in the day you had to earn your place and worked up.
Keeping tenuously on topic... If there was a heritage route to driving then how long would that take ? You would need to volunteer for free for 5yrs and then another 2 at a TOC ? It wouldn't be a realistic route to take.
Working your way up does have its merits and you do gain an insight and appreciation for others but I think there is a difference between an 'apprenticeship' and 'indentured servitude' both sides of this railway coin need to change and move with the times. Maybe even learn from each other.
Eccles1983
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It reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer starts a new town.
They are missing a doctor and one turns up. However they still make him draw a job out of the hat because it's what everyone else did and he ends up the town drunk or something.
I understand that people start off doing the less glamous jobs, but it's a way to the drivers spot when they otherwise wouldn't get a chance.
It makes little sense to make a professional driver work their way up to being a volunteer driver. You may as well use the skill they already have and are or have been paid for.
Just my twopence worth.
They are missing a doctor and one turns up. However they still make him draw a job out of the hat because it's what everyone else did and he ends up the town drunk or something.
I understand that people start off doing the less glamous jobs, but it's a way to the drivers spot when they otherwise wouldn't get a chance.
It makes little sense to make a professional driver work their way up to being a volunteer driver. You may as well use the skill they already have and are or have been paid for.
Just my twopence worth.
tiptoptaff
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But there would be no firemen or cleaners, because everyone who has joined has gone driving. No one is saying you must spend years sweeping a platform before getting near a loco, only that you have to spend time around the locos, learning what's required of you. In perspective, if you can go from the street to mainline driver in a year or so, that's around 250-260 working days. If you divide that by the average number of days footplate crews do at the one railway I'm familiar with, it comes out at about 10years volunteering to get one years full time driving training. So how is 5years unreasonable?
The apprenticeship, as it were, has been done away with on the mainline, long gone are the days of secondmen and drivers assistants.
The apprenticeship, as it were, has been done away with on the mainline, long gone are the days of secondmen and drivers assistants.
tiptoptaff
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Driving a modern unit is nothing like driving a steam engine - which is a fact, unfortunately, that many professional drivers don't seem to grasp.
Sounds the opposite of when some have joined a Mainline Operator, having gone through the progression you describe...
They join a depot with a long established link structure and complain at it being unfair.
theironroad
Established Member
I think the vast majority of professional drivers are aware that steam is a totally different beast.
However, from your posts , it seems that you (or your railway) don't want full time drivers from the big railway infiltrating the heritage sector whatever experience they may have.
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