Heritage train driver

[tiptoptaff]

I think the vast majority of professional drivers are aware that steam is a totally different beast.

However, from your posts , it seems that you (or your railway) don't want full time drivers from the big railway infiltrating the heritage sector whatever experience they may have.

I have not said that anywhere - several of our crews are mainline drivers. But they have worked their way up, just like everyone else

 

[ComUtoR]

It makes little sense to make a professional driver work their way up to being a volunteer driver. You may as well use the skill they already have and are or have been paid for.

Which is what my point was in the other thread. Use people to where they are best skilled.

But there would be no firemen or cleaners, because everyone who has joined has gone driving. No one is saying you must spend years sweeping a platform before getting near a loco, only that you have to spend time around the locos, learning what's required of you.

Not everyone wants to drive a steam train. If they did and the applications were queuing out the door then you could pick and choose as you wish and still have any scheme you wanted to get into the grade. Where I find that I am at odds with the Heritage sector is that forcing people to take the long path and take other positions has little to no relevance on actually doing the job and seems like a way to get volunteers in roles they wouldn't otherwise occupy. The justification that to become a steam driver you need to earn it by doing other roles isn't based on the principle that you need to learn other tasks first.

Our oldest driver is 72 and has been driving for many many years. We have a few ex BR guys who did work their way up from Guard, Secondman and then Driver. Even they look back and whilst they see the benefits, they would admit that you really didn't need to go up the ranks or 'earn it'

In perspective, if you can go from the street to mainline driver in a year or so, that's around 250-260 working days. If you divide that by the average number of days footplate crews do at the one railway I'm familiar with, it comes out at about 10years volunteering to get one years full time driving training. So how is 5years unreasonable?

The time taken I understand. If you were required to do 225hrs under supervision before becoming a driver I'd accept that it would take an extended period. However, that isn't the case. You're not joining a heritage railway as a driver and then learning your craft. You volunteer for other duties and then become a driver.

The apprenticeship, as it were, has been done away with on the mainline, long gone are the days of secondmen and drivers assistants.

Because they have evolved. Imagine what would happen if they went back in time and decided that the driving grade was internal only, and you had to earn it by working your way up ? Applications would tank and within a few years there would be nobody to replace those leaving the grade.

Apprenticeships are back btw

 

[tiptoptaff]

Applications are so high because of the pay and conditions, ultimately.

If you believe that loco cleaning and firing are irrelevant to driver progression, then really you cannot comment about working from the bottom. They are the line of promotion. They need to completed and understood before becoming a driver. Knowledge and understanding of each grade builds the foundation for the next one above.

 

[43066]

Driving a modern unit is nothing like driving a steam engine - which is a fact, unfortunately, that many professional drivers don't seem to grasp.

True.

It’s also nothing like driving heritage diesel locos (from a sneaky drive of one I may have been given - and no I’m not going to say where ).

EP brakes certainly take some getting used to, after three step brakes. Even at 25mph max

 

[ComUtoR]

Applications are so high because of the pay and conditions, ultimately.

But if that was linked to having to go through platform, cleaner, guard or various other roles first, then applications would drop. Yes people come into the grade because the money speaks volumes but if that wasn't going to happen for a number of years and even then, it was only a maybe, it would significantly affect TOC recruitment.

If you believe that loco cleaning and firing are irrelevant to driver progression, then really you cannot comment about working from the bottom. They are the line of promotion. They need to completed and understood before becoming a driver. Knowledge and understanding of each grade builds the foundation for the next one above.

There is a difference between working you way up through grades that are relevant with skills that provide an understanding and foundation for the next level and having to work in 'other positions' on the railway because you need to earn your position, pay your dues, etc etc. I have no issue with anything that is relevant to the grade (irrespective of what it is)

I do object to it being treated like some special elite position that new people don't deserve but have to aspire to through subservience to the railway. (which is how it all comes across)

As I said earlier. I firmly believe both sides of the industry need to change. There needs to be flexibility in TOC recruitment and maybe have a more open approach. Heritage is struggling. I would hate for it to be consigned to history and have these beautiful machines stuck in a museum.

 

[Dieseldriver]

ComUtoR, what tasks, positions do you think people have to perform/fulfil before becoming a Steam Driver on a heritage line? From my understanding, they go straight in as a Cleaner (cleaning and preparing engines etc). Then over a period of time they become a Fireman. Then after a period of time as a Fireman they become a Driver.
Those steps before becoming a Steam Driver aren't unnecessary, a Steam Locomotive is much different to the traction that you drive and you need a greater understanding of mechanical knowledge and the skillsets required before being let loose in one.
You may aswell view 'Engine Cleaner' as the first step of a Trainee Drivers course as that's pretty much what it is.

 

[ComUtoR]

ComUtoR, what tasks, positions do you think people have to perform/fulfil before becoming a Steam Driver on a heritage line? From my understanding, they go straight in as a Cleaner (cleaning and preparing engines etc). Then over a period of time they become a Fireman. Then after a period of time as a Fireman they become a Driver.

To reiterate.... Anything involved in a direct route to becoming a Driver I have no problem with. Anything relevant I would totally support.

When I say 'cleaner' I am not referring to what you are saying is a step towards Driver. I am referring to a 'Cleaner' as in the kind of job that would be sweeping the platform, buildings, mopping up, etc etc. as in a 'Cleaner' I hope that gives you more clarity.

From what I hear about heritage railways is that you don't go in as a Driver, and you end up doing something totally irrelevant because you have to put your time in before you get a sniff at becoming a Driver.

If, as people highlight, everyone wants to be a Driver, why isn't there a queue of Cleaners and Firemen and a glut of trained Drivers ? If, as is reported, the sector is struggling to entice, hire, and retain staff (Volunteer or otherwise) Then why haven't they addressed this ?

 

[tiptoptaff]

There are queues of cleaners waiting to fire and fireman waiting to drive on larger railways.

If a railway us making prospective footplate crew work in other areas then they will suffer their downfall.

 

[Ducatist4]

The Midland Railway at Butterly often cancel their weekend running due to lack of train crews (steam and diesel).

 

[Eccles1983]

Driving a modern unit is nothing like driving a steam engine - which is a fact, unfortunately, that many professional drivers don't seem to grasp.

But the rules of the road are the same.

So it's a lot less to think about, as it's second nature - so more time to focus on traction.

I sign (or at least have signed) over 10 types of traction, diesel and electric.

Each has a quirk, and whilst not comparable to a big steam engine it's not beyond the capability of man to learn another type of traction.

It smacks of old boys club, and a bit of inferiority complex. I have zero interest in heritage, but know people that do. It would be a shame if it went down the pan but attitudes like those shown here leave little to wonder why.

 

[43066]

To reiterate.... Anything involved in a direct route to becoming a Driver I have no problem with. Anything relevant I would totally support.

When I say 'cleaner' I am not referring to what you are saying is a step towards Driver. I am referring to a 'Cleaner' as in the kind of job that would be sweeping the platform, buildings, mopping up, etc etc. as in a 'Cleaner' I hope that gives you more clarity.

Just to clarify, “cleaner” in a steam locomotive context is a specialised role involving tasks such as prepping and disposing of locos, lubrication, removal of ash from the smoke box etc. It’s certainly no way akin to sweeping platforms, emptying dustbins etc.

The traditional progression during the age of steam, often over many years, was cleaner - passed cleaner - fireman - passed fireman - driver (“passed” meaning passed in the competency of the next grade, awaiting a vacancy). Progression to each new grade relied to a large extent on the skills acquired in the previous grade.

This progression is what heritage steam railways replicate today.

 

[axlecounter]

I’m on my (long) way to become a steam driver. As a (mainline) driver I found it a bit frustrating at the beginning that I wasn’t at least on the engine, but now I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to be near it without having learned what I’ve learned until now, nor I’d want to be in the driver’s place without having learned what I still have to...
The big difference with steam is that the machine’s behaviour and response isn’t filtered by any new or old technology of any kind. You have to know exactly what to do when and why.

There are probably heritage railways somewhere or single people that do like the reenact a pay-your-dues type of training for some reason, but I believe that in any case becoming a steam driver must involve quite a lot of training hours in cleaning-firing (assisted)-firing before getting to the regulator...for good reasons.

If, as people highlight, everyone wants to be a Driver, why isn't there a queue of Cleaners and Firemen and a glut of trained Drivers ? If, as is reported, the sector is struggling to entice, hire, and retain staff (Volunteer or otherwise) Then why haven't they addressed this ?

Well, as far as I know, not everyone wants to be a driver.

 

[Raul_Duke]

You would certainly have to love the job to do it all week and then spend your rest days being the bi**h of some accountant or dentist playing at trains.

Having said that; and back to the original point, if that was a recognised route to passing out on the mainline then people would be queuing out the door to to it, solving any heritage recruitment problems.

Reading some posts on here and people would sell a kidney/firstborn to get on the footplate.

For the avoidance of Railforums doubt™ : Some of the above is firmly tongue in cheek.

 

[theironroad]

I’m on my (long) way to become a steam driver. As a (mainline) driver I found it a bit frustrating at the beginning that I wasn’t at least on the engine, but now I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to be near it without having learned what I’ve learned until now, nor I’d want to be in the driver’s place without having learned what I still have to...
The big difference with steam is that the machine’s behaviour and response isn’t filtered by any new or old technology of any kind. You have to know exactly what to do when and why.

There are probably heritage railways somewhere or single people that do like the reenact a pay-your-dues type of training for some reason, but I believe that in any case becoming a steam driver must involve quite a lot of training hours in cleaning-firing (assisted)-firing before getting to the regulator...for good reasons.

Well, as far as I know, not everyone wants to be a driver.

Whats the progression from scratch and the timeframe of the heritage railway you work at?

 

[Llanigraham]

I’m on my (long) way to become a steam driver. As a (mainline) driver I found it a bit frustrating at the beginning that I wasn’t at least on the engine, but now I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to be near it without having learned what I’ve learned until now, nor I’d want to be in the driver’s place without having learned what I still have to...
The big difference with steam is that the machine’s behaviour and response isn’t filtered by any new or old technology of any kind. You have to know exactly what to do when and why.

There are probably heritage railways somewhere or single people that do like the reenact a pay-your-dues type of training for some reason, but I believe that in any case becoming a steam driver must involve quite a lot of training hours in cleaning-firing (assisted)-firing before getting to the regulator...for good reasons.

Very well put and congratulations on working your way through the "system".

Well, as far as I know, not everyone wants to be a driver.

Agreed!!
I won't even volunteer to be a controller(signalman) on our line. Quite happy being part of the Tuesday Gang building new coaches and restoring old wagons.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Volunteering ? Never again.

Back in 2007 I volunteered at the East Lancs in the Diesel Dept.
Most of the duties were maintenance related.
The jobs they gave me were rubbish - most memorable one was jet washing the oil off cylinders that had been taken out of a class 45 "Peak" locomotive. It took ages.
I only went back about 4 times, over a 12 month period.
They told me it would take 10 to 15 years of regular volunteering in maintenance/cleaning/second manning to become a Driver.


It wasn't all for nothing though. If anything it gave me something to put on my CV when applying to become a main line driver, which incientally I got soon after.


Now that I've done Mainline Driving for many years, I recently looked into going back to the Heritage scene. I thought this would allow me to go straight into driving heritage Diesels. I was told it wouldn't make a difference - I'd still have to start from the bottom and face the long ques!!

So as you can imagine, I never went back.

Ironically it seems like it's harder to become a volunteer driver at the east lancs than it is to become a mainline driver.

 

[axlecounter]

Whats the progression from scratch and the timeframe of the heritage railway you work at?

Well, it's not clearly defined what you should do before, but to start the fireman training it's required to make in a single year approx. 10 days of off-season engine maintenance/repairing/etc. and 10 days during the steam season, helping firemen/drivers in their depot tasks. That as to both have a good idea of what it is about and, for the railway, to see the degree of the volunteer's motivation (a training still costs money and worse, other volunteer's time so the railway might not be willing to train an unmotivated volunteer). Then you're on for the fireman training, both theory, the engines, the line, railway rules&regulations (easier for already mainline drivers) and practice. There it then depends a lot both on the free time one wants to invest on it and how the training goes. Can go from a couple of years to more. Obviously keeping in mind that we're talking of something done at best a handful of days per month.
At the moment I'm at 5-7 days of volunteering per year. Not willing to put in more for now, I'm happy with that and the railway's perfectly fine with that too (my wife too ).

 

[dakta]

Volunteering ? Never again....

I don't know if we've crossed paths before on another forum many a year ago, but I've heard this story before.

I volunteered for a while doing a bit of maintenance and fabrication (somewhat enjoyable in its own right though i suffered with confidence), always wanted to be a mainline driver, even passed the tests and got to the final stage on too many occasions but never to be.

Got hooked up in cybersecurity and now on a reasonablu decent career path, but always sigh that what I wanted to be, I can now never be - so volunteering, or the prospect of it, has stayed with me and something I discuss over the dinner table daily. finding a decent railway someday and becoming a functional member, and hopefully one day second man or drive is my last chance saloon at acheiving something I ache for badly.

I don't think anybody who is deadly serious about being in an operational role should or would be overly shocked that some commitment is required. But in my limited voluntering experience it seems having ambitions actually attaches a bit of a stigma to you, and unless you have some extreme skills from the outside you'll be at risk of being sidelined. All railways are different and I've seen a few offer what appears on the face of it structured graduation paths, if this is how they work in reality thats great but I think otherwise it can be a gamble, if I give ten years off my free days of service, at the end will i get picked? could go either way.

To keep on topic though, if your hearts in mainline, just apply for mainline. The heritage side is far too uncertain though volunteering even non - operationally can help on the cv and help with general awareness and knowledge too. I don't think, even in the final interviews after passing the tests and delivering the presentations, much attention was paid to my previous volunteering experience in all fairness.

 

[theironroad]

Well, it's not clearly defined what you should do before, but to start the fireman training it's required to make in a single year approx. 10 days of off-season engine maintenance/repairing/etc. and 10 days during the steam season, helping firemen/drivers in their depot tasks. That as to both have a good idea of what it is about and, for the railway, to see the degree of the volunteer's motivation (a training still costs money and worse, other volunteer's time so the railway might not be willing to train an unmotivated volunteer). Then you're on for the fireman training, both theory, the engines, the line, railway rules&regulations (easier for already mainline drivers) and practice. There it then depends a lot both on the free time one wants to invest on it and how the training goes. Can go from a couple of years to more. Obviously keeping in mind that we're talking of something done at best a handful of days per month.
At the moment I'm at 5-7 days of volunteering per year. Not willing to put in more for now, I'm happy with that and the railway's perfectly fine with that too (my wife too ).

Interesting, thanks.

 

[craigybagel]

Of course, there is one way you could go straight from heritage to mainline driving.

Get yourself a job as a senior manager at a start up train operating company, then sign your own competence cards claiming you're competent when you're only actually qualified on a heritage line. Drive your light engine at up to 103MPH and watch the hilarity ensue when you have a spectacular SPAD.

Volunteering ? Never again.

Back in 2007 I volunteered at the East Lancs in the Diesel Dept.
Most of the duties were maintenance related.
The jobs they gave me were rubbish - most memorable one was jet washing the oil off cylinders that had been taken out of a class 45 "Peak" locomotive. It took ages.
I only went back about 4 times, over a 12 month period.
They told me it would take 10 to 15 years of regular volunteering in maintenance/cleaning/second manning to become a Driver.


It wasn't all for nothing though. If anything it gave me something to put on my CV when applying to become a main line driver, which incientally I got soon after.


Now that I've done Mainline Driving for many years, I recently looked into going back to the Heritage scene. I thought this would allow me to go straight into driving heritage Diesels. I was told it wouldn't make a difference - I'd still have to start from the bottom and face the long ques!!

So as you can imagine, I never went back.

Ironically it seems like it's harder to become a volunteer driver at the east lancs than it is to become a mainline driver.

Funnily enough, when I was a guard on the national rail network I contacted that same railway and offered my services and they couldn't have been more welcoming. The only reason I didn't start there last summer as planned was that in my day job I went from being a guard to being a driver. I still fully intend on joining the ELR as a guard next summer though when I'm passed out as a mainline driver - I have no great desire to be a heritage driver but there were certain aspects of the guards role I know I'll miss now I'm driving and volunteering at the ELR will I hope tick those boxes nicely.

 

[notadriver]

These heritage companies need competent staff so they should be nice(r) to fully qualified ones offering their time.

 

[theironroad]

These heritage companies need competent staff so they should be nice(r) to fully qualified ones offering their time.

Oh no no no

Don't want any of those pesky qualified mainline drivers polluting the history and ambience of the heritage sector, thank you very much.

Old trains, old procedures thanks very much.

 

[2L70]

These heritage companies need competent staff so they should be nice(r) to fully qualified ones offering their time.

I knew this thread was heading this way.

“That Steam special on Saturday who’s firing it?”
“Jim is, he’s volunteered for us for 35 years and it’s only for a couple of hours so nice little job”
“Why can’t I do it? I’m as good as him aren’t I?”
“Well it’s Jims job and it suits him”

Fumes and runs off to the Inspector/Manager in Charge.

 

[Steam Man]

I think this was discussed in another thread and while I don't see a problem in principle starting as a cleaner then fireman etc, I think 5 years, even 2 is going to put off people who really just want to drive. This will apply especially to people going to heritage railways if retiring early etc..

At the end of the day it will be supply and demand. If the supply of drivers is not there and the railway has to cancel trains then they've two options, either change the progression rules or ultimately lose business if they regularly have no trains because of lack of drivers.

Increasing ORR interest will mean that heritage drivers will need to be on top form even more than they are now and jump and tick the ORR boxes for a whole whole of h&s stuff, all without any pay...

It would be a funny heritage railway and business model that was so obstinate to say that it's either the way it's always been done with a five year progression or no way and would rather go out of business.

I love working on the heritage railways I go out and meet people help people as well I do enjoy it and I feel that I’ve found something I’m good at at last

 

[Grannyjoans]

I wouldn't mind trying again on heritage railways if there was some sort of financial incentive, but when there isn't, then I'm not going to go back and try again. In fact it costs me money as Bury ELR is a 42-mile round trip in the car.

Especially when I won't be able to drive heritage diesels from the start.

I would have to spend many years doing jobs that I don't want to do.

I already have to spend 33 to 45 hours a week on the real railway mostly doing things that I don't want to do.

I don't want to put myself through even more of this on the heritage lines.

 

[notadriver]

I knew this thread was heading this way.

“That Steam special on Saturday who’s firing it?”
“Jim is, he’s volunteered for us for 35 years and it’s only for a couple of hours so nice little job”
“Why can’t I do it? I’m as good as him aren’t I?”
“Well it’s Jims job and it suits him”

Fumes and runs off to the Inspector/Manager in Charge.

There’s nothing wrong with training up a spare firemen for when ‘Jim’ isn’t available.

 

[357]

The flip side of this view is actually EOR, where I used to volunteer.

Many people were working on the construction before the opening, being told that those who had been working on the line would have first choice of operational positions.

The reality was that a week or two before opening various different people turned up who nobody had met before, who started doing all the driving turns, and many people who had been there for many years were in essence told to sod off by the then General Manager.

Thankfully I was too busy with other things by then to care or see the drama unfold, but it must have been very disheartening for those involved.