Nottingham to Tamworth (not via Birmingham)

TiedUpInNotts · 30 Dec 2019

Hello, I was looking at fares from Nottingham to Tamworth and found there seem to be two options, "any permitted" and "not via Birmingham".

This got me thinking, why would anyone want to travel between these two stations via Birmingham when there are regular direct trains between the two places that don't go anywhere near Birmingham (until later)? You'd have to stay on past Tamworth to get to the via point just to come back again. Presumably there is another permitted route, but anyone paying loads extra to use it would surely have to be crazy. Or am I missing something?

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Mike99 · 30 Dec 2019

Stopping travel via Leicester and New Street maybe, I haven't looked at the Routeing Guide Maps yet but maybe Any Permitted allows via Leicester and Nuneaton, but the not via Birmingham precludes staying on beyond Nuneaton to New Street

Starmill · 30 Dec 2019

What would you like instead? The 'Any Permitted' tickets to simply be removed from sale? I am unsure how that could benefit anybody!

TiedUpInNotts · 30 Dec 2019

Starmill said:
What would you like instead? The 'Any Permitted' tickets to simply be removed from sale? I am unsure how that could benefit anybody!

No, I just wondered why anyone would want to go from Notts to Tamworth via Birmingham. I'm not an expert on tickets and, on the face of it, it just seems a bit strange that this would even be a permitted route, or why anyone would choose to take much longer and pay extra for a journey that has a regular direct service.

I asked the people of this forum if I was missing something. I didn't say anything about wanting tickets removed from sale. I'd love to know how you jumped to that conclusion.

Starmill said:
What would you like instead?

What I'd like instead, seeing as you ask, is hopefully someone helpful with a bit of ticketing knowledge to offer some constructive input in reply to my original post, as Mike99 kindly did.

Starmill · 31 Dec 2019

TiedUpInNotts said:
What I'd like instead, seeing as you ask, is hopefully someone helpful with a bit of ticketing knowledge to offer some constructive input in reply to my original post, as Mike99 kindly did.

Nottingham to Tamworth via Hinckley and Atherstone is permitted with a 'not via Birmingham' ticket. Unfortunately, Nottingham to Tamworth via Leicester, Coleshill Parkway and Birmingham New Street is not a permitted route, not even with an Any Permitted ticket. So it seems unlikely that our answer lies there I'm afraid.

It is more likely that the true answer lies with historical circumstances. 'Not via Birmingham' tickets are available to Tamworth from many other places, including Derby and Sheffield, where it is also hard to see where people who do want to travel via Birmingham might come from. Some places further away also have them, such as Huddersfield, where one might find travel via Birmingham to be quicker. One might also find that in some cases travel via Birmingham is still not permitted, even with Any Permitted tickets.

There are, however, a lot of tickets that exist for reasons which are either forgotten, are completely obscure, or which might be used only theoretically. Any Permitted tickets from Rugby to Birmingham also fall into this category, for example.

More expensive tickets that don't allow travel by any additional routes or at any different times whatsoever are also not unheard of.

TiedUpInNotts · 31 Dec 2019

Thank you.

CrispyUK · 31 Dec 2019

Starmill said:
There are, however, a lot of tickets that exist for reasons which are either forgotten, are completely obscure, or which might be used only theoretically. Any Permitted tickets from Rugby to Birmingham also fall into this category, for example.

Not being an expert on routing, but this being of local interest, does that mean that the only/all permitted routes from Rugby to Birmingham go ‘via Coventry’ for which there is a cheaper routed ticket available? Or is there another permitted route that nobody would ever want to use?

ForTheLoveOf · 31 Dec 2019

CrispyUK said:
Not being an expert on routing, but this being of local interest, does that mean that the only/all permitted routes from Rugby to Birmingham go ‘via Coventry’ for which there is a cheaper routed ticket available? Or is there another permitted route that nobody would ever want to use?

You can also go via Nuneaton if you have an Any Permitted ticket. A bit pointless other than for those situations where there is engineering work or service disruption, and you can't even officially go via Bedworth. The via Coventry restriction is needed to stop the Rugby-Birmingham fare undercutting the Nuneaton-Birmingham fare, as the former is cheaper than the latter, despite it being on a corridor with vastly more services and over a distance nearly 50% longer.

30907 · 31 Dec 2019

TiedUpInNotts said:
Thank you.

The via BHM option might have been useful in the days when Tamworth had far fewer trains and no through Nottinghams.

Mike99 · 31 Dec 2019

Well that's a funny old thing, I just finished catching up on this thread and then went into BR fares to look at a price from Leicester to Oxford, (I might check in on the last day of the X90 from Gloucester Green, mini running day on this Saturday after I finish work) and the first fare that caught my eye was £33.50 SVR route Not via Birmingham (with a Disabled Rail Card); as with my comment above I haven't checked the Maps yet, but I'm thinking; is it a route to Nuneaton, then the service via Coventry to Leamington Spa then onto Oxford?

30907 · 31 Dec 2019

Mike99 said:
Well that's a funny old thing, I just finished catching up on this thread and then went into BR fares to look at a price from Leicester to Oxford, (I might check in on the last day of the X90 from Gloucester Green, mini running day on this Saturday after I finish work) and the first fare that caught my eye was £33.50 SVR route Not via Birmingham (with a Disabled Rail Card); as with my comment above I haven't checked the Maps yet, but I'm thinking; is it a route to Nuneaton, then the service via Coventry to Leamington Spa then onto Oxford?

Looks the obvious route.

John @ home · 31 Dec 2019

Mike99 said:
I ... went into BR fares to look at a price from Leicester to Oxford ... and the first fare that caught my eye was £33.50 SVR route Not via Birmingham. … is it a route to Nuneaton, then the service via Coventry to Leamington Spa then onto Oxford?

http://rmme.railmiles.me/ shows that this is the shortest route. It is therefore a Permitted Route.

Origin: Leicester
Destination: Oxford
Distance: 80mi 51ch
Route: Leicester, Leicester South Jn., Knighton Jn, Wigston North Jn, South Wigston, Glen Parva Jn, Narborough, Croft, Hinckley, Nuneaton South Jn, Nuneaton Chilvers Coton Jn, Bermuda Park, Bedworth, Hawkesbury Lane, Coventry Arena, Three Spires Jn, Coundon Rd Lc, Coventry North Jn, Coventry, Gibbet Hill Junction, Kenilworth, Milverton Jn, Leamington Spa, Fenny Compton, Fenny Compton South Jn, Reservoir Junction, Banbury North Junction, Banbury, Banbury Depot Jn, Kings Sutton, Aynho Jn, Heyford, Tackley, Wolvercote Jn, Oxford North Jn., Oxford.

kieron · 1 Jan 2020

Starmill said:
Nottingham to Tamworth via Hinckley and Atherstone is permitted with a 'not via Birmingham' ticket. Unfortunately, Nottingham to Tamworth via Leicester, Coleshill Parkway and Birmingham New Street is not a permitted route, not even with an Any Permitted ticket. So it seems unlikely that our answer lies there I'm afraid.

If there are no relevant easements, there are Nottingham-Tamworth routes via Birmingham on the DG+XL map combination. You'd have to travel via Derby (or at least Long Eaton) and Leicester, and can only go through Water Orton once. Something like Nottingham-Derby-Leicester-Nuneaton-Coventry-Birmingham-Tamworth should be valid, but it's not an especially fast route.

There may have been other routes available before privatisation (as there would be if we were using the 1996 routeing guide, which didn't make Tamworth a routeing point), so the "disputed routes procedure" may be worth considering for someone who wishes to be able to go from Nottingham to Tamworth via Birmingham without so much messing around.

Starmill · 1 Jan 2020

kieron said:
If there are no relevant easements, there are Nottingham-Tamworth routes via Birmingham on the DG+XL map combination. You'd have to travel via Derby (or at least Long Eaton) and Leicester, and can only go through Water Orton once. Something like Nottingham-Derby-Leicester-Nuneaton-Coventry-Birmingham-Tamworth should be valid, but it's not an especially fast route.

There may have been other routes available before privatisation (as there would be if we were using the 1996 routeing guide, which didn't make Tamworth a routeing point), so the "disputed routes procedure" may be worth considering for someone who wishes to be able to go from Nottingham to Tamworth via Birmingham without so much messing around.

Thank you for pointing out that there a little bit more to it - as usual!

WesternLancer · 1 Jan 2020

Mike99 said:
Well that's a funny old thing, I just finished catching up on this thread and then went into BR fares to look at a price from Leicester to Oxford, (I might check in on the last day of the X90 from Gloucester Green, mini running day on this Saturday after I finish work) and the first fare that caught my eye was £33.50 SVR route Not via Birmingham (with a Disabled Rail Card); as with my comment above I haven't checked the Maps yet, but I'm thinking; is it a route to Nuneaton, then the service via Coventry to Leamington Spa then onto Oxford?

In the days of the direct Nottm - Leicester - Coventry through trains I would regularly go to Oxford (for family visits) that way - changing at Coventry for onward to Oxford and avoid New Street. This would have been before about 1995 IIRC.

edwin_m · 1 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
In the days of the direct Nottm - Leicester - Coventry through trains I would regularly go to Oxford (for family visits) that way - changing at Coventry for onward to Oxford and avoid New Street. This would have been before about 1995 IIRC.

I seem to remember Cross Country (or whoever they were at the time) promoting this as a way to avoid changing at Birmingham. Nottingham-Coventry certainly has cheaper fares routed Not Birmingham. This is sometimes still the quickest route although it is two changes versus one and the service is only hourly at best (it misses the official connection time at Nuneaton in at least one hour of the day).

WesternLancer · 2 Jan 2020

edwin_m said:
I seem to remember Cross Country (or whoever they were at the time) promoting this as a way to avoid changing at Birmingham. Nottingham-Coventry certainly has cheaper fares routed Not Birmingham. This is sometimes still the quickest route although it is two changes versus one and the service is only hourly at best (it misses the official connection time at Nuneaton in at least one hour of the day).

I recall doing that route in latter BR days, and the early privatisation era too. Nottm to Coventry on a 1st generation DMU at least once in early 1990s and then also I think on cl 150 sprinters.

edwin_m · 2 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
I recall doing that route in latter BR days, and the early privatisation era too. Nottm to Coventry on a 1st generation DMU at least once in early 1990s and then also I think on cl 150 sprinters.

It was a through train up until about 2002, sharing the route via Hinckley with a Lincoln-Shrewsbury via Leicester and Birmingham. More likely to be Class 156 in the latter years, although Central Trains random unit generator would no doubt throw up a 150 from time to time. Both were canned soon after the turn of the century in the pruning of Central Trains, leaving the 2TPH XC service through Nuneaton and the shuttle to Coventry.

WesternLancer · 2 Jan 2020

edwin_m said:
It was a through train up until about 2002, sharing the route via Hinckley with a Lincoln-Shrewsbury via Leicester and Birmingham. More likely to be Class 156 in the latter years, although Central Trains random unit generator would no doubt throw up a 150 from time to time. Both were canned soon after the turn of the century in the pruning of Central Trains, leaving the 2TPH XC service through Nuneaton and the shuttle to Coventry.

Thanks - I don't recall the Lincoln - Shrewsbury. Yes, no doubt 156s on the service too.

Nottingham to Tamworth (not via Birmingham)

TiedUpInNotts

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Mike99

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Starmill

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TiedUpInNotts

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TiedUpInNotts

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CrispyUK

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ForTheLoveOf

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30907

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Mike99

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John @ home

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kieron

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Starmill

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WesternLancer

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edwin_m

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