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Do people sill rely on paper timetables when planning journeys?

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WesternLancer

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Basically nobody looks at printed timetables any more. Anybody with sense, especially at weekends, checks online journey planners....if they didn't they'd be expecting trains all the way to St Pancras!
That can't be true as when I went to get an EMT TT number 01 from the station last week and the rack was empty the ticket office staff got me one, and said, I'll fill the rack up - they get taken faster than I can fill up the space on the rack for them -esp the London ones. So someone must be using them!!
 

berneyarms

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I don't subscribe to the notion that people don't use printed timetables any more. They clearly do and it's a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

However, that being said, I would check in advance before travelling at the weekend for timetable changes due to engineering work as the timetable is subject to significant alteration. That's a fact of life with the railways.
 

tbtc

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I don't subscribe to the notion that people don't use printed timetables any more. They clearly do and it's a nonsense to suggest otherwise

It's not that *nobody* uses them, just that significantly fewer people do.

What percentage of house holds have at least one up to date railway time table in them? Probably fewer than the number who keep a Yellow Pages.

And what percentage of people would turn up at the station for a long distance journey (like Wakefield - London) with a timetable that might be almost six months old ... versus the number who will have recently double checked train times online/ have a seat booked on a particular service etc?

In fact, I wonder what percentage of normal people could even answer basic questions on a TOC timetable nowadays? (e.g. if you gave them a commonly distributed leaflet and asked them to work out various times from the grid of data)

Enthusiasts can be great but we're not a normal subsection of the country.
 

berneyarms

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It's not that *nobody* uses them, just that significantly fewer people do.

What percentage of house holds have at least one up to date railway time table in them? Probably fewer than the number who keep a Yellow Pages.

And what percentage of people would turn up at the station for a long distance journey (like Wakefield - London) with a timetable that might be almost six months old ... versus the number who will have recently double checked train times online/ have a seat booked on a particular service etc?

In fact, I wonder what percentage of normal people could even answer basic questions on a TOC timetable nowadays? (e.g. if you gave them a commonly distributed leaflet and asked them to work out various times from the grid of data)

Enthusiasts can be great but we're not a normal subsection of the country.

Actually it was suggested earlier in the thread that *nobody* does, which is why I made the comment.

I do think that younger people tend to underestimate printed/ pdf timetable usage to be fair - it’s bigger than a lot of people think. I’m basing that on the rate of turnover of printed timetables at local stations - it’s still fairly high.

I would say that it is probably older people most of the time, but it’s still a reasonable number.

Ultimately a timetable does give you the best overall picture of the service on any route - even if the powers that be would prefer us all to use journey planners all the time.

As I said though, not checking for weekend disruption is asking for trouble given the amount of engineering works that are prevalent.
 

robbeech

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With the risk of continuing the off topic tangent. (Maybe this printed timetable discussion should be moved to a new thread although there likely already is one) should A larger station like Sheffield might fill the rack up with timetables when a new version is released. Maybe 50 to even 100 of them. They might be gone in a couple of days and require restocking. This may repeat itself a few times. So it’s clear that lots of people will still use them. However, compared to the number of people who walk past and maybe don’t even know such a thing still exists I’d say it was fairly small number overall. To rely on it in today’s world of upgrades and maintenance would be incredibly folly, especially at weekends.
 

geoffk

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I always collect a pile of new timetable leaflets twice a year but of course I don't rely on these alone when planning a trip out. I use RTT and NRE to check what's happening. I've got my first smart phone after some encouragement from my family (!) so have the Northern and other apps. I never use a journey planner as they sometimes give you silly results.
 

WesternLancer

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The prevalence of journey planner use is why, amongst other things, I often encounter people with significant amounts of luggage - for whom it never makes sense - getting off trains At Newark Castle, asking how far it is to Northgate, and wondering if there are any taxis (this station interchange distance wise is not, in my view ideal for someone who thinks they are just changing trains).
 

DarloRich

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Do people sill rely on paper timetables when planning journeys: Some people but I suspect only, really, the elderly, technophobes or the kind of obsessive fetishists we have on this board. Most people will simply use an on line service. I cant recall the last time I picked up a paper timetable. it was probably to teach the kids how to read one.

Personally I would stop printing timetables and make people print at home if they want one. It is hardly difficult.
 

Bletchleyite

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I mostly use a combination of planners and RTT, though I sometimes use PDFs online if I want to get the overview of a service as I don't know what specific time I'm travelling.

Perhaps if the cost of printing them en-masse is too high (and the waste not sustainable), booking offices could just print the PDFs on demand on a laser printer? They will have one anyway.
 

Failed Unit

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I still use a printed timetable, (well pdf version on my phone) for initial checks. It is a quick reference and doesn’t need a live connection.
 

Bertie the bus

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Nobody using printed timetables is just a myth put about by the TOCs to save them the cost and effort of producing them. Fairly recently at a large station I wanted to know the next train to somewhere and so looked for printed timetable sheets. There weren’t any so I had to ask a member of staff and also asked why there weren’t any printed timetables. The reply was because nobody uses them, though how they could know that without continuously checking the CCTV I have no idea, and that people who want to know times can ask at the information desk. So they think having to queue up to ask someone instead of looking yourself is in some way advantageous to passengers.
 

30907

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I still use a printed timetable, (well pdf version on my phone) for initial checks. It is a quick reference and doesn’t need a live connection.
Ditto. PDFs (or the ERT when I'm at home) for an overview, or for checking alternatives/seeing what's around while travelling, especially if I want to save data. A few leaflets in the kitchen in case the phone isn't handy. Journey planner for anything complex.
 

181

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I don't think I'm old (late 40s), and I recently spent £26 on what I'm sad to see is the last printed GBTT from Middleton Press -- I will very much miss having it in future. Of course if travelling at a weekend I will always check online for engineering works (being able to do this is a big improvement over pre-Internet days), but this might involve just looking at NRE to see if there are any works that might affect my journey, and if not, then looking up times in the printed timetable. I don't remember being badly caught out as a result since online information about engineering works has been available (except one occasion when the work still wasn't mentioned on NRE just a few days before).

There are two separate discussions to be had -- printed vs. electronic, and matrix timetable vs. journey planner. A journey planner can be useful for some purposes, but it is not any kind of substitute for a proper timetable -- the former will tell you what the computer thinks you should do to travel between two particular points in a particular time range on a particular date, but if you want to get a general idea of what services are available so you know what journeys are feasible on future occasions, check in case you want to come back at a different time or on a different day, investigate alternative places to change (which may be pleasanter places to wait or give you more chance of making the connection), investigate alternative start/end points (e.g. 'is it worth getting the bus to somewhere with a more frequent train service?'), see if you can save any time by getting an 'unofficial' connection, see when the next train is if you miss an official connection, and so on, it gets tedious making multiple searches when a proper timetable will show you everything at a glance. It's like how a satnav, useful though it may be, is not a substitute for a map (or a knowledge of geography).

The paper vs. print question is less clear-cut, as a matrix timetable is essentially the same in both formats and it's a question of which you prefer or is more convenient. I'm presumably going to have to get used to finding my way round the online pdfs of the GBTT and printing those I use most often -- I never got used to it during the brief absence of the printed version a few years ago, but I might eventually. As for individual route timetables, yes you can print them off, but a properly produced leaflet is more convenient than some home-printed pages, and although I've not much gone in for printing railway timetables, my experience of bus timetables is that they aren't always designed to be printed conveniently and legibly at home.

It seems to me that it's actually new or occasional users who have most to gain from a proper timetable if they can get past the barrier of not being used to it (in the same way that it's people with little knowledge of geography who are most at risk of driving to the wrong end of the country if they put the wrong postcode into their satnav). Having used the printed GBTT for nearly 40 years I know where the railway lines go and have a general idea of what kind of service is available on most of them, but in the interval between Thomas Cook announcing the end of their European timetable and the timetable staff reviving it, I wondered how I would be able to plan travel in countries whose networks I was less familiar with.
 

yorksrob

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Nobody using printed timetables is just a myth put about by the TOCs to save them the cost and effort of producing them. Fairly recently at a large station I wanted to know the next train to somewhere and so looked for printed timetable sheets. There weren’t any so I had to ask a member of staff and also asked why there weren’t any printed timetables. The reply was because nobody uses them, though how they could know that without continuously checking the CCTV I have no idea, and that people who want to know times can ask at the information desk. So they think having to queue up to ask someone instead of looking yourself is in some way advantageous to passengers.

Exactly. The idea that people don't use paper timetables is a myth perpetuated by companies who don't want to print them anymore.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think I'm old (late 40s), and I recently spent £26 on what I'm sad to see is the last printed GBTT from Middleton Press -- I will very much miss having it in future.

It'd be more costly, but as Amazon can do "print on demand" for people to publish, in print, their own books in near enough any quantity[1], can't someone just set the PDFs up for this?

[1] This has a downside in that there's an awful lot of rubbish on Amazon along those lines, often printed copies of Wikipedia articles and the likes.
 

WesternLancer

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I don't think I'm old (late 40s), and I recently spent £26 on what I'm sad to see is the last printed GBTT from Middleton Press -- I will very much miss having it in future. Of course if travelling at a weekend I will always check online for engineering works (being able to do this is a big improvement over pre-Internet days), but this might involve just looking at NRE to see if there are any works that might affect my journey, and if not, then looking up times in the printed timetable. I don't remember being badly caught out as a result since online information about engineering works has been available (except one occasion when the work still wasn't mentioned on NRE just a few days before).

There are two separate discussions to be had -- printed vs. electronic, and matrix timetable vs. journey planner. A journey planner can be useful for some purposes, but it is not any kind of substitute for a proper timetable -- the former will tell you what the computer thinks you should do to travel between two particular points in a particular time range on a particular date, but if you want to get a general idea of what services are available so you know what journeys are feasible on future occasions, check in case you want to come back at a different time or on a different day, investigate alternative places to change (which may be pleasanter places to wait or give you more chance of making the connection), investigate alternative start/end points (e.g. 'is it worth getting the bus to somewhere with a more frequent train service?'), see if you can save any time by getting an 'unofficial' connection, see when the next train is if you miss an official connection, and so on, it gets tedious making multiple searches when a proper timetable will show you everything at a glance. It's like how a satnav, useful though it may be, is not a substitute for a map (or a knowledge of geography).

The paper vs. print question is less clear-cut, as a matrix timetable is essentially the same in both formats and it's a question of which you prefer or is more convenient. I'm presumably going to have to get used to finding my way round the online pdfs of the GBTT and printing those I use most often -- I never got used to it during the brief absence of the printed version a few years ago, but I might eventually. As for individual route timetables, yes you can print them off, but a properly produced leaflet is more convenient than some home-printed pages, and although I've not much gone in for printing railway timetables, my experience of bus timetables is that they aren't always designed to be printed conveniently and legibly at home.

It seems to me that it's actually new or occasional users who have most to gain from a proper timetable if they can get past the barrier of not being used to it (in the same way that it's people with little knowledge of geography who are most at risk of driving to the wrong end of the country if they put the wrong postcode into their satnav). Having used the printed GBTT for nearly 40 years I know where the railway lines go and have a general idea of what kind of service is available on most of them, but in the interval between Thomas Cook announcing the end of their European timetable and the timetable staff reviving it, I wondered how I would be able to plan travel in countries whose networks I was less familiar with.
Exactly my views!

Reminds me of a car journey not so long ago with some friends when i took a lift - i was fairly certain we were going the wrong way and mentioned this but was told by driver - 'oh the sat nav always comes up with the best route' - it was only when we finally turned into a cul de sac in completely the wrong village about 5 miles away from where we were supposed to be that driver stopped and checked and found they had keyed in the wrong postcode...

As a user of EMR with a large fleet of trains with no charging facilities on them, a paper timetable is a key thing to have in one's pocket IMHO!
 

Baxenden Bank

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Yes, or at least pdf versions of printed timetables.

I shall second 181's comments above. I want to see the whole service, not what an algorithm decides I can be allowed to know based on parameters I have not been asked.

It takes time and effort to get a printed version correct, more care is likely to be taken in producing something with a shelf life of several months. Not least the cost of pulping and reprinting if serious errors are incorporated, or producing an amendment sheet if errors are minor. Having said that TfW have some rubbish out there for the current timetable period.

If you moved to electronic versions only, but in the style of current paper timetables, would the same care be taken? A pdf can quickly be revised and uploaded. I suggest there is a need to ensure that users can easily see that a revised version has been published (version control). e-NRT is riddled with errors - some absolute howlers - which they don't correct.

I can see the benefits of electronic databases, only accessible through on-line journey planners (equivalent to an access query) as they can be constantly updated, to reflect daily changes. But, as per electronic only pdf publication, that removes the need for care and attention to be applied to the data entered into the database in the first place. If there is an error, why bother looking for it when you can simply wait for someone else to spot it and report it. Much cheaper!

Furthermore, customers deserve some kind of certainty in order to plan their future journeys. A constantly changing timetable (ie daily), which is the likely outcome once paper timetables are eliminated, will not serve the public well. There are regular threads where people have bought tickets against the printed (or long term) timetable to then have delay-repay refused against a later timetable (short term alterations, engineering affected or error corrected). I have tickets to remote, infrequently served, areas of Scotland in a couple of months. The out and return journeys, plus travel whilst away, is dependent upon the times published in December. Contractually I may well be able to claim delay repay if the journeys can no longer be achieved but, you know, I would rather just get there, do what I have planned, and get home again, at the times I have planned for.
 

DarloRich

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i think @181 makes a valid point. However i feel that posters here fail to acknowledge that normal people just want to know which train to get from A > B. They aren't worried about the kind of things odd balls like us are.
 
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