Not happy with staff on Northern

ca2102 · 28 Jan 2020

I have now responded with this email

Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your reply however, the point I am trying to make is with regard to the statement made by your colleague in his initial response to my complaint. He stated "It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket". This is incorrect advice. That is not the customer's responsibility. It is the customer's responsibility to purchase the required ticket as soon as it is reasonably practicable. If the conductor is available then I would certainly purchase a ticket however, it is not always reasonably practicable to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket.

The journey I take is approximately 11 minutes in duration. The train can consist of 4 carriages. The conductor is not always at the rear of the train. If the train is overcrowded am I reasonably expected to trawl through the carriages trying to find a conductor in those 11 minutes? - What if I have luggage, a pushchair, a bicycle, etc.

Futhermore, the passage of text that you refer to (NCoT Page 9) is an information box and does not form part of a Train Company's contract with the customer. Please refer to NCoT Page 3 where it states:

We have included a number of ‘information’ panels and/or footnotes to help you understand the meaning of certain Conditions. Please note that these panels and footnotes are for explanations only and do not form part of a Train Company’s contract with you.

Also please note that nothing in your reply addresses my initial complaint regarding the behaviour of the Northern Staff during my journey from Outwood to Leeds in December 2019.

Kind regards,

Mr xxxx xxxx.

RailUK Forums

packermac · 31 Jan 2020

sheff1 said:
You seem to be confusing a 'penalty fare zone' with a Compulsory Ticket Area.

I may well be but the The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 which can be found here (and is a link from the NRE Penalty Fares Page via another link from the Dec 2019 NRCOT) appears to make little distinction.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/pdfs/uksi_20180366_en.pdf

Just a couple of parts of the long act below

PART 2 Penalty Fares Requirement to produce a ticket 4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket. (2) A person present in or leaving a compulsory ticket area, other than as a result of leaving a train that arrived at that compulsory ticket area, must if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator produce— (a) a valid travel ticket; or (b) a platform ticket where that person does not intend to board a train for the purpose of travel.

Penalty fares 5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

Schedule 1 Part 1 of the act also seems to make little distinction between the two other than over notices.

So yes I am somewhat confused as my (admittedly Contract) Law training would imply from the act there is little difference, so maybe someone can explain it to me.

ca2102 · 1 Feb 2020

I have now received this email as a reply...........

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your prompt response.

I appreciate your comments, however we would expect customers to take some degree of responsibility whilst travelling and ensuring they have a ticket at the first available opportunity - at this point, if there are no functional ticket buying facilities at your departing station, then this would be from the conductor on board. Our services do not run without a conductor on board, and therefore one is always present.

My colleague and myself have pointed out to you that in accordance with railway byelaws you must purchase a ticket prior to travelling, and if this is not able to be done then your next point of call is the conductor on board. We do have an appeals procedure in place for customers that feel they were dealt with a notice or fine unfairly.

If you are not satisfied with the way we have answered your complaint you have the right to take your complaint to the Rail Ombudsman. The Rail Ombudsman service is independent and free. If you contact them please make sure that you tell them that you have this letter, known as a Deadlock Letter, to show that you have completed the complaints process with us.
The Ombudsman will investigate your complaint and make a decision based on the information given to them. If you agree with the Ombudsman’s decision we have to do what they say. This could be making an apology, explaining what went wrong, correcting the problem, or giving you a financial award.
If your complaint is about the way our service has been designed, rail industry policy, or if your complaint relates to an event that took place before the Rail Ombudsman service was established, the Ombudsman will review it and then put it in the hands of Transport Focus who may progress it on your behalf. This organisation is a passenger watchdog that works with the rail industry, government and others.

You can contact the Rail Ombudsman at www.railombudsman.org or by telephone on 0330 094 0362

xxxxxx
Customer Solutions Team Manager

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Smart Ticketing: 0333 222 0127
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

If you are planning a journey, or you already have a journey booked, please ensure that you refer to Journey Check before you travel. This will enable you to keep up to date with any potential changes to your planned journey.

https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Proud to be Northern

CentralTrainer · 1 Feb 2020

So in short - another stock email where they fail to address the behaviour of staff or point out the relevant conditions in print where a Conductor MUST be sought to buy a ticket.

Backsides and elbows spring to mind.

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

Shocking! Dreadful. This certainly does need to go to the Ombudsman. I would also argue that this could be evidence of a franchise breach, expecting passengers to do more then what is legally required. As a result I would also complain to the Office of Rail and Road, The Department for Transport and my MP. I am sure people on here would be more then happy to help you write these emails/letters. @yorkie I know will be happy to help as will I, if you want to send me a message.

In short, you did nothing wrong and do not for one moment think otherwise. You were unable to pay before boarding and offered up your fare at the first opportunity. You were treated badly and are quite entitled to complain about that.

The level of arrogance in Northern is shocking. Moreover now they have their Customer Relations in house. Surely any decent company would want to avoid complaints being taken to the Ombudsman and take the opportunity to address complaints at first contact.

Vespa · 2 Feb 2020

Thankfully Northern Fail will be no more.

js1000 · 2 Feb 2020

This is very unfortunate to hear. Sadly this is just one of the many - almost countless - problems on the Northern franchise. DfT and Network Rail are not blameless but Arriva have run the entire franchise into the ground with a staggering level of incompetence.

Northern staff have attempted to give me a penalty fare at Manchester Piccadilly despite wishing to a monthly season ticket at the kiosk. This was due to the ticket office being closed and the ticket machine not able to sell monthly tickets. You'd think someone who wanted to buy a monthly ticket is a loyal customer - not a fare dodger. I was told to talk to someone who proceeded to give me a Penalty Fare. Outraged, I simply walked away to buy it from the Virgin ticket office. Didn't stop the Northern RPI harrassing me around the concourse shouting "I'll call the police" until I walked into the Virgin ticket office and quickly vanished. I'm amazed this practice still continues as all it does is turn customers against you.

Wombat · 2 Feb 2020

I find corporate machinery interesting. It seems to me that these are the main possibilities:

1) Both customer service staff have misunderstood the basic question. This seems unlikely, as ca2102 has repeatedly asked it in a straightforward manner.
2) Both customer service staff genuinely believe that the passenger has a duty to actively seek out the guard, because they think it's a reasonable position and that "reasonable" is sufficient in law.
3) Both customer service staff genuinely believe that the passenger has a duty to actively seek out the guard, because that is an assumption that has gradually set in amongst the team and achieved the status of "fact".
4) Both customer service staff genuinely believe that the passenger has a duty to actively seek out the guard, because their training and/or guidance materials explicitly say so.
5) Both customer service staff are aware that there is no duty for the passenger to actively seek out the guard, but have been instructed by their management to state otherwise.

I think i'd put my money on 3, perhaps with a smaller bet on 4. I suspect in any event that these people are not particularly well paid and lack the curiosity, time, inclination or ability to think beyond their initial off-the-cuff response.

I do agree with complaining to the ombudsman, though, as this seems to be the only likely way to get them to stop making things up.

thejuggler · 2 Feb 2020

Safe to say you played them into a corner and they are now admitting through omission that what they state isn't the case.

Despite the demise of the operator I'd take it further as this has been going on a long time. The previous franchise had stickers in the units stating passengers must find the on board staff to buy a ticket if facilities weren't available before boarding, or potentially receive a fine and criminal record.

yorkie · 2 Feb 2020

thejuggler said:
Safe to say you played them into a corner and they are now admitting through omission that what they state isn't the case.

Despite the demise of the operator I'd take it further as this has been going on a long time. The previous franchise had stickers in the units stating passengers must find the on board staff to buy a ticket if facilities weren't available before boarding, or potentially receive a fine and criminal record.

Indeed; it's an endemic deep-rooted cultural problem that will probably prevail once the Operator of Last Resort takes over. I'd love to have a word with a manager from Northern and ask them some tough questions about this case (and other related ones that I know about)

Wombat · 2 Feb 2020

Out of curiosity I asked the question of Norther's Twitter team, via direct message. After some obfuscation, this was the conclusion (my emphasis):

"Hi, you must, as soon as reasonably able, purchase a ticket to travel. This is your legal obligation. It is then up to you how you go about this. Advise the conductor before boarding that you need to buy one, seek out the conductor while travelling if they do not walk the train, or purchase from them on leaving the train. ^IB"

I thought the last bit was interesting and novel, though have no idea how that's supposed to work in practice.

[I've edited this post to note that this conversation took place in private direct messages on Twitter. As such it's not publicly viewable, but I'm happy to post screenshots of the exchange.]

yorkie · 2 Feb 2020

Wombat said:
Out of curiosity I asked the question of Norther's Twitter team. After some obfuscation, this was the conclusion (my emphasis):

"Hi, you must, as soon as reasonably able, purchase a ticket to travel. This is your legal obligation. It is then up to you how you go about this. Advise the conductor before boarding that you need to buy one, seek out the conductor while travelling if they do not walk the train, or purchase from them on leaving the train. ^IB"

I thought the last bit was interesting and novel, though have no idea how that's supposed to work in practice.

It can't work in practise, however I know of various people who correct them on Twitter who end up being blocked; someone at Northern appears to think that this tactic will stop people correcting them.

Well I'll keep correcting them. They're utterly wrong. There is no requirement to advise the customer before boarding that you need to buy a ticket (I wonder what the conductor would say if you try that? Maybe I'll try it some time and report back!), nor to seek out the conductor, and the idea of delaying a train while they sell one as you alight is pure fantasy and shows how out of touch these people are. Clearly they don't actually travel by train. If you don't know something, I always say: fair enough, admit it. But to make this up is absolutely ridiculous.

However it is consistent with the behaviour I expect from the company.

some bloke · 2 Feb 2020

Could any of these responses be suitable?

ca2102 said:
It is the customer’s responsibility to locate the conductor to purchase the required ticket. Essentially, the act of using a train service without a valid ticket is illegal and can result in a criminal record.

"Apart from the points I have already made, I believe Northern's juxtaposition of "responsibility" with "criminal record" is liable to mislead a passenger. A passenger's breach of contract (though Northern have not shown that there would be such a breach by not seeking a conductor) is not in itself a criminal matter.

Byelaw 18 states:

"(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey;"

In my view train operating companies should not be making statements that need interpreting through study of documents; where passengers' legal responsibilities are concerned, companies should provide clear, accurate statements."

ca2102 said:
your comments regarding the attitude of the staff member will be passed to the relevant manager for investigation.

"I have yet to receive a report on the outcome of this investigation."

ca2102 said:
The part about locating a conductor can be found on our customer promise

"I have yet to receive acknowledgement or apology for this misstatement by Northern."

ca2102 said:
we would expect customers to take some degree of responsibility whilst travelling and ensuring they have a ticket at the first available opportunity - at this point, if there are no functional ticket buying facilities at your departing station, then this would be from the conductor on board. Our services do not run without a conductor on board, and therefore one is always present.

My colleague and myself have pointed out to you that in accordance with railway byelaws you must purchase a ticket prior to travelling, and if this is not able to be done then your next point of call is the conductor on board.

"I believe that passage is also liable to mislead a passenger, in view of Byelaw 18(3) above.

I also do not consider that Northern's repeated references to finding a conductor properly take into account my point that this was a journey of only approximately 11 minutes."

trenopendo · 2 Feb 2020

You must take this to the Ombudsman. Do not delay.

farleigh · 2 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
It can't work in practise, however I know of various people who correct them on Twitter who end up being blocked; someone at Northern appears to think that this tactic will stop people correcting them.

Well I'll keep correcting them. They're utterly wrong. There is no requirement to advise the customer before boarding that you need to buy a ticket (I wonder what the conductor would say if you try that? Maybe I'll try it some time and report back!), nor to seek out the conductor, and the idea of delaying a train while they sell one as you alight is pure fantasy and shows how out of touch these people are. Clearly they don't actually travel by train. If you don't know something, I always say: fair enough, admit it. But to make this up is absolutely ridiculous.

However it is consistent with the behaviour I expect from the company.

Brilliant Yorkie - keep at 'em

packermac · 2 Feb 2020

js1000 said:
This is very unfortunate to hear. Sadly this is just one of the many - almost countless - problems on the Northern franchise. DfT and Network Rail are not blameless but Arriva have run the entire franchise into the ground with a staggering level of incompetence.

Northern staff have attempted to give me a penalty fare at Manchester Piccadilly despite wishing to a monthly season ticket at the kiosk. This was due to the ticket office being closed and the ticket machine not able to sell monthly tickets. You'd think someone who wanted to buy a monthly ticket is a loyal customer - not a fare dodger. I was told to talk to someone who proceeded to give me a Penalty Fare. Outraged, I simply walked away to buy it from the Virgin ticket office. Didn't stop the Northern RPI harrassing me around the concourse shouting "I'll call the police" until I walked into the Virgin ticket office and quickly vanished. I'm amazed this practice still continues as all it does is turn customers against you.

Out of interest was this complied with (as specified in

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018) when you had your issue & were you given the opportunity to note down those details?

Identification for Collectors

3. Identification issued to a collector (“the collector”) must contain—

(a) the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b) the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of the authorising operator;

(c) a photograph of the collector;

(d) the identification number of the collector;

(e) the following wording—

“The person identified by this card is a collector for [name of authorising

operator] under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018”; and

(f) the signature of the person who, on behalf of the authorising operator, authorised the

collector.

philthetube · 2 Feb 2020

Wombat said:
Out of curiosity I asked the question of Norther's Twitter team. After some obfuscation, this was the conclusion (my emphasis):

"Hi, you must, as soon as reasonably able, purchase a ticket to travel. This is your legal obligation. It is then up to you how you go about this. Advise the conductor before boarding that you need to buy one, seek out the conductor while travelling if they do not walk the train, or purchase from them on leaving the train. ^IB"

I thought the last bit was interesting and novel, though have no idea how that's supposed to work in practice.

One foot on the train, one on the platform and refuse to leave until you are sold a ticket, show the twitter comment in needed.. :?:

gray1404 · 3 Feb 2020

The people giving out this naff advise (both in Northern and Transport for Wales recently) have no idea how it cause problems for on train staff. It will be very troublesome if passengers are approaching staff before or straight away upon boarding, or how about walking along the platform to speaking to them rather then getting on the train, going knocking on the cab (some passengers will try the front cab were the driver is), forming a que in the gangway thus blocking access through the train and then trying to engage the guard upon leaving the train. All of these do nothing but create problems for staff working on board the trains and achieve nothing. Many of these are at times when the staff member on board would be unable to sell a ticket anyway. It is not even known until a train arrives at a station where about's on the train the guard will be anyway.

I do not see what the problem is with them saying, if are boarding at a station where it has not been possible to purchase a ticket before boarding simply board and take a seat. Under normal circumstances the guard will be along shortly to sell you a ticket. Train guards are very good at seeing who has boarded at which station and which part of the train they have boarded at and are well used to going through to sell tickets when they can.

LeylandLen · 3 Feb 2020

The new trains Class 195 and 331 are self-contained non corridor units, and can be coupled together ( Ive seen a few over the recent weeks ) so its possible, is it not, for the guard to be in the other set than you are ?

The same rules apply to every TOC. I've often seen two Virgin/Avanti Voyager 5 car units coupled together . I doubt if they have a guard in each unit ?

yorkie · 3 Feb 2020

LeylandLen said:
The new trains Class 195 and 331 are self-contained non corridor units, and can be coupled together ( Ive seen a few over the recent weeks ) so its possible, is it not, for the guard to be in the other set than you are ?

Northern require the Guard to be in the rear set if the units are separated

LeylandLen said:
The same rules apply to every TOC.

Northern's rules are more onerous/stringent than some other companies such as TPE.

LeylandLen said:
I've often seen two Virgin/Avanti Voyager 5 car units coupled together . I doubt if they have a guard in each unit ?

I believe they may require a member of staff to be in each unit, however that person can be catering staff if I recall correctly?

This is in contrast with TPE who allow Guards to be in the front portion without necessarily having any staff in the rear portion.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
This is in contrast with TPE who allow Guards to be in the front portion without necessarily having any staff in the rear portion.

According to their Twitter they require one in each unit on routes where not all doors may be platformed. Though I don't know if 185s have UDS or not.

Karl · 3 Feb 2020

UDS? Pray tell.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2020

Karl said:
UDS? Pray tell.

Sorry, Unit Deselect. It's a form of manual selective door opening, essentially from the front cab of a given unit in a multiple formation you can release all doors on the unit(s) in front of that cab but not those in the unit you're in or behind. It's fitted to most Siemens units.

Karl · 3 Feb 2020

Merci beaucoup

ca2102 · 4 Feb 2020

OK - So I have now submitted a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman with my gripes about Northern and their conduct.
I will update this thread once I get anything back.
Thanks to all of you out there who have listened, commented and offered opinions and advice.
I am sure we are all saddened by the fact that threads like this are appearing all too frequently due to corporate mismanagement of a potentially wonderful way to travel.

ca2102 · 12 Feb 2020

From the Rail Ombudsman.................

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

On further review into the nature of your complaint, there are elements that we may be able to look into. We have requested a response from the Rail Service Provider and will be in touch in due course with more information.

You do not have to do anything further at this stage.

HSP 2 · 12 Feb 2020

That sounds good to hear.

ca2102 · 29 Feb 2020

The Rail Ombudsman has now adjudicated on my complaint and it was a mixed bag. Somewhat happy and somewhat frustrated by their decisions.
The complaint I submitted formed 3 parts.

1. I would like an unreserved and full apology for the staff interaction that I encountered. This was a WIN for me.
Northern responded thus:
“I am contacting you in regards to the incident that occurred on Sunday 15th December 2019 at Leeds station.
I would like to offer our sincere apologies for any distress and inconvenience that may have been caused when you were stopped by Revenue Protection Officers whilst they were conducting a ticket checking exercise.
We do recognise that you advised the ticket machine was out of order at Outwood which that information was clearly not relayed back to our Revenue staff at Leeds and for that we sincerely apologise.
If there is anything else, please do not hesitate to contact us”

2. Confirmation that an investigation did indeed occur or is scheduled to occur regarding the staff interaction that I encountered. This was a LOSS for me.
The Ombudsman responded thus:
Whilst I appreciate your comments, it is not within the Rail Ombudsman’s remit to compel the RSP to provide details of the outcome of any staff investigations as these remain confidential to the RSP.

3. I would like Northern to produce a document where it states that a conductor MUST be sought, or a statement from Northern that dispels that notion. This was a DRAW for me.
The Ombudsman responded thus:
With regards to your concerns regarding what you should do if you are unable to purchase a ticket, like on the day in question, I have provided some information for your attention below.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel states;
“You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one”. “This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.”
I recognise that there are circumstances where you may be unable to purchase a ticket via your starting station, or from the conductor on the train. However, I must ascribe weight to the obligation that you should be making every effort to purchase a ticket, as per the terms and conditions of travelling.

The final comment from the Ombudsman is:
Based on my objective assessment of your case, I consider there to be no legal basis to investigate your case any further and no scope for mediation. As such, I am unable to proceed with your case any further and wish to note that your case has been closed. The referral of your case to The Rail Ombudsman does not dissolve you of your rights to pursue the claim through an alternative channel if you so wish.

So.......That's it. A WIN, A DRAW and A LOSS
I can take comfort that many people on this forum supported what I was doing.

yorkie · 29 Feb 2020

1) This was the important thing. You won

2) If you asked if an investigation took place, the Ombudsman did not answer that question. Of course the outcome would never be released. This is not the sort of question the Ombudsman is going to be able to help with really.

3) I am very disappointed at the Ombudsman in this area; their reply is very woolly. They need to get a backbone. The Rail Ombudsman refuse to engage with us. We have tried. They're a lost cause. A broken promise. They lack the level of knowledge that is required.

As for Northern, I maintain my opinion of the company that they are an absolute disgrace, at least in terms of how they (mis)treat customers. That isn't going to change any time soon.

ca2102 · 29 Feb 2020

Since the incident occurred I have been much more observant of the staff I encounter during my infrequent travels on the railways and can now feedback some of my observations.
I usually travel on an afternoon on Fridays and Sundays (not sure if that has any bearings).

The last 10 journeys from Outwood to Leeds

has seen the train arrive late on 7 of those occasions (Outwood is the last station before Leeds so any delays along the journey are always going to impact Outwood).
has seen the conductor stay in his cabin twice (both unannounced reasons) and been too busy to check if I needed a ticket twice (they sometimes are still selling tickets to the boarders from Wakefield).
has seen the ticket machine out-of-order once.
Has seen Revenue Protection Staff "hanging about" the Leeds Ticket Office on 7 of those occasions.

Not happy with staff on Northern

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