dave59
Member
- Joined
- 28 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 120
Why would they want 802's for the WCML? the 802 is a bi mode.
To replace Voyagers on Holyhead and Shrewsbury services, eliminating "diesel under the wires"Why would they want 802's for the WCML? the 802 is a bi mode.
For fleet commonality, and it may also offer flexibility during periods of engineering works or incidents where overhead power is isolated.Why would they want 802's for the WCML? the 802 is a bi mode.
That's for Avanti West Coast though, not Transpennine Express which is being discussed here.To replace Voyagers on Holyhead and Shrewsbury services, eliminating "diesel under the wires"
It was very rare for the Northern services to be too full to board, but it was pretty much a daily occurance on TPE services. Even now it's common for a 6 car set to be working a service with 3 locked out of use, and passengers crushed into the aisles and doorways in just half of the train.Travelling on a Pacer or a 156 through the Hope Valley for an hour?! You must have to pack a blanket and a flask in your rucksack surely.
Would that be worth spending a vast amount of money on?For fleet commonality, and it may also offer flexibility during periods of engineering works or incidents where overhead power is isolated.
Would twelve 802s be that much more expensive than twelve 397s? Being discussed with the benefit of perfect hindsight here of course, given the service entry delays that have affected the CAF fleets since the order was placed.Would that be worth spending a vast amount of money on?
Would that be worth spending a vast amount of money on?
Would twelve 802s be that much more expensive than twelve 397s? Being discussed with the benefit of perfect hindsight here of course, given the service entry delays that have affected the CAF fleets since the order was placed.
Yes. There would be savings on a single fleet too.
Sorry - not thinking straight. I blame old age and the fact I live south of Crewe and when I see WCML... (let's just say I don't immediately think that far north - even when reading a TPE post)For fleet commonality, and it may also offer flexibility during periods of engineering works or incidents where overhead power is isolated.
That's for Avanti West Coast though, not Transpennine Express which is being discussed here.
Another problem that is common is that the gap between what TPE lead people to expect and what they actually provide is quite large.
For example, I was on a train recently one Saturday morning where I had to stand in the area around the toilet at the front, just from Piccadilly to Victoria for onward connection luckily. There was a group of about 12 ladies on their way to Newcastle for a party.
What I think people need to understand is, when they go online and pay a couple of hundred quid for a big group booking for Manchester to Newcastle, they're going to expect broadly the same sort of thing that Manchester to London passengers will expect. They will expect as the very minimum to be able to get them and all of their luggage onto the train, store it somewhere and then all sit down together in reserved seats for them. Bear in mind too that we're talking almost three hours here. They will also expect to be able to use the toilets and buy a cup of tea.
The previous train, the Redcar Central service, had been cancelled. Passengers had been advised to catch the Newcastle service as there wasn't a suitable alternative from Manchester Airport or Manchester Piccadilly. The train was formed of 3 coaches, and was running late. It hadn't had any reservations placed out, and it was already full of passengers from Manchester Airport. A huge crowd squashed in including me at Manchester Piccadilly, and I could hear the group of ladies having a big argument with the various different people who had come from Manchester Airport who were occupying their booked seats. The ladies were stood in the aisle holding their suitcases, with no space for them in any of the racks only only one or two had got to sit down, and spread out.
Unsurprisingly this caused a lot of conflict. Several of them got very angry and some were in tears. It was also very awkward for everyone else. A group of them came through to the driver's cab and started banging on the door and shouting 'hello'. It wasn't difficult to see why they were so unhappy at the prospect of most of them having to stand for almost 3 hours and not be able to sit together.
Of course, the driver was busy driving the train and couldn't help, so they eventually made an announcement asking them to stop banging on the door and to seek assistance from the guard at the other end of the train. It wasn't clear what was going to happen there because the train was so busy that the guard would have struggled to get through. The group would have had an alternative train from Manchester Victoria to Newcastle but they didn't get off, unsurprisingly as their tickets would have not been valid on an alternative train without permission (or even if they were, they thought they weren't). Of course, most people here probably just treat that as normal for TPE, a lot of their staff seem to have internalised the idea that it's normal for customers to experience what they did, and by extension get quite annoyed when customers complain.
From the TPE staff I know they’re as fed up as everyone else with it all. Afaik a 6 car requires 2 Guards, often there might not be two to save money so they run as a 3 vice 6.
Do they really need two guards?
A Pacer coupled to a 150 ie no walkthrough only needs one Guard
I know because I have worked many a train like that!
Do they really need two guards?
A Pacer coupled to a 150 ie no walkthrough only needs one Guard
I know because I have worked many a train like that!
I don't think it saves money because they don't employ enough staff, but it is very questionable if they have not 'saved money' by not deploying the SDO more competently.But to say its a money saving exercise - its a lazy argument.
The cost of replacing the lease on the 397s would be astronomically expensive and you've identified very tiny savings of times when there's no power to the overhead wires and a small percentage of maintenance economy.
At the time, there was a compulsion to order stock that would be available for delivery sooner than any more 802s were.
And what short-term advantages might they be? TPE have trains that have been accepted as fit for service that are not in service because of insufficient number of trained staff. If they were introducing one new fleet instead of three, I suspect this would be less of a challenge. And they have quite a few trains still not yet accepted for service, particularly the 68+Mk5 combos that have been particularly problematic.Oh, I wasn't thinking for one second the present situation would be changed, plainly the deal is done. As to delivery times this is stock that has been made in Japan, Italy and UK, the UK factory currently well below capacity, so I'm not sold on the advantage won. Long term TPE would have been easier to manage with a single consistent fleet and I suspect we've swapped some long term gains for short term advantage. I also suspect the main gains are accounting, not real.
So you're advocating that the company should have chosen to agree to a far longer delivery timescale? The units might be beginning production now, months after they should have all been in service? And you're calling those lost years an "accounting" loss?Oh, I wasn't thinking for one second the present situation would be changed, plainly the deal is done. As to delivery times this is stock that has been made in Japan, Italy and UK, the UK factory currently well below capacity, so I'm not sold on the advantage won. Long term TPE would have been easier to manage with a single consistent fleet and I suspect we've swapped some long term gains for short term advantage. I also suspect the main gains are accounting, not real.
Presumably the fact that the promise is unfilled brings contractual compensation with it. There has been plenty of rumour around that all doing the rounds from different parts of the industry, so I am not sure TPE will be any different. If the promise had never been made of course there would be no compensation.The short term advantage was promised earlier deliver times, which hasn't been fulfilled. We agree. This unfulfilled promise of delivery times has saddled the railway with two more micro fleets and TPE will suffer from lack of interchangeability as time wears on - route clearance, staff training, even reservations will mean stock cannot be moved around. This is going off topic, but the extra training and delays in acceptance isn't helping performance, nor will the inability to move stock between routes.
Would twelve 802s be that much more expensive than twelve 397s? Being discussed with the benefit of perfect hindsight here of course, given the service entry delays that have affected the CAF fleets since the order was placed.
I don't think it saves money because they don't employ enough staff, but it is very questionable if they have not 'saved money' by not deploying the SDO more competently.
The requirement was there for it from franchise award - the company knew it was going to be something they'd need to deliver from 2016. Here we are, four years into the contract, oh: it doesn't work as it should. Why not? Why was there not more management capital put into on getting it work in advance of 2018 timetable changes? Was the specification to install it the right one, or was it done to save money? It's clear that there aren't enough conductors to book the assisting conductors onto all of the necessary services and that they won't cancel another service to provide a conductor for one to be 6 car. But that's because they're trying to solve a problem that they should have never left themselves with. They knew that Dore wasn't going to have a 6 car platform in 2019.
Quite - under contract to TransPennine Express.Where's your questioning of Siemens in this? They after all maintain the stock and retrofitted the stock?
Can't TPE run 6 car 185's to Hull?TPE used to run 6 car 185s using something called UDB. Not being able to run on the Hull Route I can dispute that,