• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Could the railways handle storm disruption better?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

HughT

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2018
Messages
116
Location
Cambridge
Lifting restrictions on the use of Advance tickets so that passengers can travel ahead of a storm ought to be plain common sense. Why risk stranding your passengers when, by allowing them to travel on an earlier train, they could be well clear of the worst effects. (This is based on my personal experience last Saturday - Avanti refused to remove the "specific train" restriction so, rather than risk being stranded on Anglesey, I took Arriva bus services all the way to Crewe [yes really!] ahead of the worst of the weather, just to improve my chances of getting back to East Anglia the same day. The fact that my booked train ran only 20 mins late isn't the point - it *could* have been cancelled if the weather had hit slightly differently!)

Also, of course, the fact that decisions are made operator by operator. So one operator might do/say/agree one thing and another - even operating along the same track - something else.
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
Lifting restrictions on the use of Advance tickets so that passengers can travel ahead of a storm ought to be plain common sense. Why risk stranding your passengers when, by allowing them to travel on an earlier train, they could be well clear of the worst effects.

It seems that most TOCs already do, although admittedly its normally for travel after the storm not before.

As to general disruption it all starts to depend on practicality. In an ideal world things vulnerable infrastructure like the Dawlish Sea Wall would either be closed and rerouted or at least have decent diversionary route available. However that isn't always practical. Even in that case where the diversionary route was built well over a hundred years ago, still has railways at both ends and most of the missing section isn't built on its seems insurmountable. And its obviously silly to expect lines like the Heart of Wales, Settle and Carlisle and West Highland to remain passable regardless of condition and with a diversionary route.

Then you have the normal damage from debris and fallen trees. Trees are still going to fall, even if NR found a batch of agent orange and killed every plant within the boundary fence trees from off the land can still fall, unless you wanted to ban 60ft trees within 60ft of a running line or whatever. Trampolines and sheds will still blow onto the line. Its impossible for NR to have enough staff in enough places to quickly clear every obstacle that blows onto the line. OHL as well will always be vulnerable to flying debris.

Then comes the clamour of "there is contingency plan" and "its all choas". Does each TOC order 30 buses (assuming they are available and not prebooked/trapped by blocked roads etc) and find they didn't need any and have thrown thousands of pounds down the drain (thats need to be recouped somewhere...) or order none or just a handful and find out with their route proving trips that actually they needed 30?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It seems that most TOCs already do, although admittedly its normally for travel after the storm not before.

What it should be is a decent period before and after (at least two days), and it should be a national decision. People genuinely get stuck between a rock and a hard place when they have a long through Advance involving multiple TOCs or worse a set of split tickets.

I'm thinking of, say, someone having a ticket from e.g. Lancaster (let's stick with it) to Brighton where a storm affected the north of the UK, as is not unusual. Avanti might declare "do not travel", but Southern are going just fine. That passenger needs an easement for their whole journey or a sequence of splits, and that doesn't universally happen.

Similarly, it's no use saying "travel at the same time the next day". Quite a few people who got stuck last Sunday will be weekly commuters to London who would need to travel early Monday rather than their usual Sunday evening, for instance.

So in essence what I would propose is that the rule should be that if any TOC declares "do not travel" for whatever reason, any ticket, of whatever type, that was purchased before that declaration and has validity on that TOC should gain Anytime validity during any period of say two days before and two days after for the entirety of the journey, and that should also apply to a sequence of contiguous splits other than them remaining routed via the split point.
 

Edders23

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2018
Messages
549
I would hope under the circumstances most TOC's would be flexible over tickets the biggest problem has been the number of line closures due to flooding and I really can't see what can be done there as there is a limit to how much you can do to protect against flooding although some of the pictures of flooded tracks on the internet don't look overly bad and I would have thought they would be passable with care much like in a car if you have the speed right down you can tackle an inch or two just not a foot of fast flowing water
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,533
Location
Western Part of the UK
I think one of the best ways for us to handle storm disruption better is to better storm proof the railway. Flooding keeps happening in the same sorts of places. Something needs to be done to reduce flooding and issues on the railway during storms.
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,966
I think one of the best ways for us to handle storm disruption better is to better storm proof the railway. Flooding keeps happening in the same sorts of places. Something needs to be done to reduce flooding and issues on the railway during storms.
How long is a piece of string discussion coming up.....
 
Joined
4 May 2012
Messages
309
What about having one provider of services, wouldn't that help?
Totally agree. Regardless of whether it is private or publicly owned, an integrated system would help, not only during storms but during any disruption. Reading all the comments on the now closed thread, the biggest trick the railway misses, is not asking the experts here where, for instance, it is safe to run trains or replacement busses. And how to, at short notice, produce coaches or busses, with plenty of drivers.
 

Parham Wood

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2011
Messages
329
I would hope that HS2 would be built so that there was virtually no chance of flooding and I do not mean meeting the once in one hundred event that planners talk about as clearly the once in one hundred is about once in three now!
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,001
Totally agree. Regardless of whether it is private or publicly owned, an integrated system would help, not only during storms but during any disruption. Reading all the comments on the now closed thread, the biggest trick the railway misses, is not asking the experts here where, for instance, it is safe to run trains or replacement busses. And how to, at short notice, produce coaches or busses, with plenty of drivers.
Be as sarcy as you like, as you clearly have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

I will however ask you the questions that I am now always going to ask:
What is YOUR advice for people already away, having travelled out before a 'do not travel' or 'all services suspended' notice is issued?
If you have an Advance, and wish to come home early, you are not allowed to do so. Although you can buy a new ticket.
Last week, ahead of Dennis, the advice was to still travel and no refunds were being offered, plus travel may have been genuinely essential anyway. What if, having followed that initial advice, the advice changes whilst away to 'do not travel'. What is your advice in that circumstance?
 

gazzaa2

Member
Joined
2 May 2018
Messages
829
I think one of the best ways for us to handle storm disruption better is to better storm proof the railway. Flooding keeps happening in the same sorts of places. Something needs to be done to reduce flooding and issues on the railway during storms.

It can always be handled better but everyone knew the risks of travelling the last two weekends because of how bad the weather forecast was.

What gets me is when the line floods due to a bit of rain and passengers are left stranded, or a hot day and the tracks melt. A bit of snow etc.

Any abnormal weather and it can be chaos, the problem is when there's weather related chaos in reasonably standard weather.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,068
Location
Powys
I think one of the best ways for us to handle storm disruption better is to better storm proof the railway. Flooding keeps happening in the same sorts of places. Something needs to be done to reduce flooding and issues on the railway during storms.

How much of the system are you going to "flood proof"?

I know that around here there has been flooding where it has never occurred before. Much of it has been caused by "off wash" from fields nowhere near streams. This because the land is totally saturated with the water table, often many feet below the surface now just inches down.

And what do you propose to do about with things like the events now occurring in Shrewsbury where all RRB's have been suspended because the station is no longer accessible because the Severn has now risen to the highest ever level?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,068
Location
Powys
Be as sarcy as you like, as you clearly have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

I will however ask you the questions that I am now always going to ask:
What is YOUR advice for people already away, having travelled out before a 'do not travel' or 'all services suspended' notice is issued?
If you have an Advance, and wish to come home early, you are not allowed to do so. Although you can buy a new ticket.
Last week, ahead of Dennis, the advice was to still travel and no refunds were being offered, plus travel may have been genuinely essential anyway. What if, having followed that initial advice, the advice changes whilst away to 'do not travel'. What is your advice in that circumstance?

I suspect there were very few journeys were that important that life or death was involved. I'm quite sure that a phone call to employers, or schools, or relatives explaining that the trains were stopped would not have been harshly dealt with.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,068
Location
Powys
It can always be handled better but everyone knew the risks of travelling the last two weekends because of how bad the weather forecast was.

What gets me is when the line floods due to a bit of rain and passengers are left stranded, or a hot day and the tracks melt. A bit of snow etc.

Any abnormal weather and it can be chaos, the problem is when there's weather related chaos in reasonably standard weather.

6" of rain in 48 hours is NOT standard weather! That is what fell in places around here.
 
Joined
4 May 2012
Messages
309
Be as sarcy as you like, as you clearly have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

I will however ask you the questions that I am now always going to ask:
What is YOUR advice for people already away, having travelled out before a 'do not travel' or 'all services suspended' notice is issued?
If you have an Advance, and wish to come home early, you are not allowed to do so. Although you can buy a new ticket.
Last week, ahead of Dennis, the advice was to still travel and no refunds were being offered, plus travel may have been genuinely essential anyway. What if, having followed that initial advice, the advice changes whilst away to 'do not travel'. What is your advice in that circumstance?
No need for such bitterness although I know that is par for the course here. Actually I have no advice as I am not experienced or qualified to do so, and that was the whole point - neither did many who were criticising those who do. Perhaps you can see that now. Emboldening text is not necessary in any response and is somewhat patronising.
 

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
It can always be handled better but everyone knew the risks of travelling the last two weekends because of how bad the weather forecast was.

That's easy to say for people without commitments. What about those who've pre-booked non-cancellable hotels, attractions/events, etc., or those travelling to weddings/funerals etc? Such people are going to try to travel regardless and take the risk of delays etc. Not all travellers are doing things that can easily be cancelled or re-arranged for a future date.
 

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
How much of the system are you going to "flood proof"?

I know that around here there has been flooding where it has never occurred before. Much of it has been caused by "off wash" from fields nowhere near streams. This because the land is totally saturated with the water table, often many feet below the surface now just inches down.

And what do you propose to do about with things like the events now occurring in Shrewsbury where all RRB's have been suspended because the station is no longer accessible because the Severn has now risen to the highest ever level?

Of course, we could do what has been done for centuries prior and clear/dredge the streams and rivers. Farmers used to look after the streams on their land (I think they got grants to do it), but now the Environment Agency frowns on such activity. Not surprising that streams and rivers burst their banks when they're actively allowed to become blocked and clogged up.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
That's easy to say for people without commitments. What about those who've pre-booked non-cancellable hotels, attractions/events, etc., or those travelling to weddings/funerals etc? Such people are going to try to travel regardless and take the risk of delays etc. Not all travellers are doing things that can easily be cancelled or re-arranged for a future date.

But many are, and with fewer travelling as a result of weather warnings the need for full replacement services etc is diminished. There are not unlimited buses, staff, hotel rooms etc available so regardless of what the NRCoT might say it only makes sense to manage expectations and reduce the amount of people travelling.

Was anybody genuinely stranded during the recent storms? There don't seem to be any media reports, and they're normally quick to latch on.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Was anybody genuinely stranded during the recent storms? There don't seem to be any media reports, and they're normally quick to latch on.

As far as the railway goes I was in Lancaster (would have been at Windermere had I not got a lift as far as the former). First time it has ever happened in my life, though.

I could have used the Stagecoach 40 to get to Preston from where services were running, but I decided given the low cost to book into the Travelodge and add a city break onto my trip, given that I'm a big fan of Lancaster. However the railway did not offer any service that would have got me home on Sunday 9th, nor did it offer to arrange or pay for accommodation, the staff were telling people to get lost (politely).
 

Grumpy Git

On Moderation
Joined
13 Oct 2019
Messages
2,124
Location
Liverpool
Of course, we could do what has been done for centuries prior and clear/dredge the streams and rivers. Farmers used to look after the streams on their land (I think they got grants to do it), but now the Environment Agency frowns on such activity. Not surprising that streams and rivers burst their banks when they're actively allowed to become blocked and clogged up.

I remember Moreton in Marsh being flooded approx. 15 years ago. It was wholly caused by the incapacity of the unmaintained roadside gullies on the A44/A429 to shift the water fast enough. Whether regular maintenance (i.e. clearing the bloody things) would have prevented it altogether is a moot point, but it certainly didn't help.

In fact one thing I notice now I'm working in Europe more regularly, is things like leaf clearing and tree pruning is much more in evidence. In Liverpool they wait until the leaves have turned into a big soggy mess and blocked every gully possible before any attempt is made at clearing them, same goes for tree pruning.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In fact one thing I notice now I'm working in Europe more regularly, is things like leaf clearing and tree pruning is much more in evidence. In Liverpool they wait until the leaves have turned into a big soggy mess and blocked every gully possible before any attempt is made at clearing them, same goes for tree pruning.

Interestingly MK seems to have got VERY proactive about tree cutting and pruning in the last 5 years or so. It's like there was a pot of money that had to be spent.
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,415
I suspect there were very few journeys were that important that life or death was involved. I'm quite sure that a phone call to employers, or schools, or relatives explaining that the trains were stopped would not have been harshly dealt with.

The problem with this is that these storms which have paralysed the railways have not, in 90% of the country, had the same effect on the trunk road network or the rest of the economy, or only done so for a very short period of time. It isn't like a hurricane in the US where no one would expect to travel, ordinary life is still going on everywhere around, why should employers be accommodating to people who've been foolish enough to rely on a niche and notably unreliable mode of transport?
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,533
Location
Western Part of the UK
How much of the system are you going to "flood proof"?

I know that around here there has been flooding where it has never occurred before. Much of it has been caused by "off wash" from fields nowhere near streams. This because the land is totally saturated with the water table, often many feet below the surface now just inches down.

And what do you propose to do about with things like the events now occurring in Shrewsbury where all RRB's have been suspended because the station is no longer accessible because the Severn has now risen to the highest ever level?
Flooding can and does pop up in unexpected places and we can't protect against flooding in the same way we can't stop any other rail disruption however we can try to prevent it areas where flooding is almost guaranteed when it rains heavily.

There will always be something the railway can do to better prevent flooding.

That inflatable balloon thing which they used down near Exeter. More of those things are needed short term as they help prevent the longer term flooding disruption.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
I think that improvements could be made to infrastructure, not everywhere, and not overnight.
In areas where the track floods regularly, then it should be raised whenever possible. To do this throughout would be prohibitively costly, but a little at a time and starting with the most problematic locations might be reasonable.
All new bridges over vulnerable railways could have an extra meter of clearance, in order that the track can be later raised by that much.
New platforms could be a little higher, again the track can later be raised without altering the platform.
All new signaling and telecoms equipment in vulnerable areas should be raised on plinths, a concrete plinth a meter high is not expensive if done as part of other works.
When drains or culverts under the line are washed out, they should be replaced by larger or more numerous water passages, not like for like.

And all new electric trains should have a small diesel engine or a battery to permit of limited operation when the wires come down. Whilst for reasons expounded upon elsewhere, I don't much like the IETs, a great merit of the nominally electric units is the inclusion of a single engine for use in such circumstances.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,533
Location
Western Part of the UK
I think that improvements could be made to infrastructure, not everywhere, and not overnight.
In areas where the track floods regularly, then it should be raised whenever possible. To do this throughout would be prohibitively costly, but a little at a time and starting with the most problematic locations might be reasonable.
All new bridges over vulnerable railways could have an extra meter of clearance, in order that the track can be later raised by that much.
New platforms could be a little higher, again the track can later be raised without altering the platform.
All new signaling and telecoms equipment in vulnerable areas should be raised on plinths, a concrete plinth a meter high is not expensive if done as part of other works.
When drains or culverts under the line are washed out, they should be replaced by larger or more numerous water passages, not like for like.

And all new electric trains should have a small diesel engine or a battery to permit of limited operation when the wires come down. Whilst for reasons expounded upon elsewhere, I don't much like the IETs, a great merit of the nominally electric units is the inclusion of a single engine for use in such circumstances.
Oh definitely, I know it can't be done overnight but the cost of upgrading the line should in the long run be a lot cheaper than the cost of compensation and lifting ticket restrictions.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,068
Location
Powys
Of course, we could do what has been done for centuries prior and clear/dredge the streams and rivers. Farmers used to look after the streams on their land (I think they got grants to do it), but now the Environment Agency frowns on such activity. Not surprising that streams and rivers burst their banks when they're actively allowed to become blocked and clogged up.

Can I suggest you read what I wrote about the common situation around here:
Much of it has been caused by "off wash" from fields nowhere near streams. This because the land is totally saturated with the water table, often many feet below the surface now just inches down.
Streams or field drains are not involved, this is "off wash", simply too much water failing to soak into the ground and running down hill onto roads and railway lines.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,373
Of course, we could do what has been done for centuries prior and clear/dredge the streams and rivers. Farmers used to look after the streams on their land (I think they got grants to do it), but now the Environment Agency frowns on such activity. Not surprising that streams and rivers burst their banks when they're actively allowed to become blocked and clogged up.

Do you have any evidence that dredging rivers would improve matters? Surely we need to slow water flow (in most cases) not speed it up?
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,068
Location
Powys
The problem with this is that these storms which have paralysed the railways have not, in 90% of the country, had the same effect on the trunk road network or the rest of the economy, or only done so for a very short period of time. It isn't like a hurricane in the US where no one would expect to travel, ordinary life is still going on everywhere around, why should employers be accommodating to people who've been foolish enough to rely on a niche and notably unreliable mode of transport?

Really?
Can I suggest you look at the road reports of closures in Wales during the last couple of days.
I know of 3 nurses who were unable to get into their hospitals because of flooding.
I know of 2 Police officers who had to attend another Station because they could not get to the Booking on Station.
I know of numerous care workers who could not get to clients.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top