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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

Bletchleyite

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The issue is presumably DOO, but I'm not sure why this should have any bearing on running them up and down without passengers to Kirkby and back. Surely that means you get a play and is far less stressful than with passengers. So I'm surprised an agreement is not yet forthcoming purely for that.
 
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shakey1961

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Haven't they sorted out DOO? There's going to be a second safety-critical member of staff on board every train i.e. a guard in all but name. Call them a guard or whatever you want to call them. And I don't care who opens or closes the doors - does that REALLY matter. RMT have got what they wanted, what's the problem?
 

Meerkat

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The issue is presumably DOO, but I'm not sure why this should have any bearing on running them up and down without passengers to Kirkby and back. Surely that means you get a play and is far less stressful than with passengers. So I'm surprised an agreement is not yet forthcoming purely for that.
Because it’s a choke point to be used for leverage, and to keep the balance of power on the union side?
Get them tested, get drivers trained, and you get nearer a point where Merseyrail could go nuclear with DOO and 90 day notices.....
 

Roger B

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I remember the days of over-manning at Longbridge, and elsewhere, and related industrial action. Not so many cars built there today, and so much industry gone because it was uneconomic, and couldn't compete with competitors. 'Striking for jobs' seems to me to be an oxymoron.

If these was less intransigence about the need for fully trained guards on SWR, Merseyside and elsewhere, would this result in a slew of safety incidents? I doubt it, given that DOO's been running for years (decades) elsewhere in the UK and elsewhere without significant safety issues. But it could result in lower fares, in a more robust service (fewer cancellation because of guard not being available), in the British public more inclined to support the railways, and the British government being more inclined to invest in and expand our railways, which would create more jobs in the rail industry.

I feel the current approach from RMT alienates the British public (many of whom have lost jobs, homes, etc because of recent industrial action), antagonises decision makers and those holding the purse strings, and at the end of the day will result in fewer jobs in the rail industry, not more. I sometimes wonder whether it's inspired by some Luddite mania, rather than the desire to see our country have a modern railway. That said, of course I want to see all railway staff properly rewarded - and to that end I'd like to see levelling-out of pay across different railway roles, where it seems to me that operating staff (especially drivers) are rewarded disproportionately more than those who sell tickets and look after passengers. And I don't mean just levelling-up, which will result in higher fares, pricing more people off the railway - it will be a sad day if the railways are just seen to be the play-thing of the rich, and those who have no choice (primarily commuters).

I'm no union-basher, and admire much of the work unions do, particularly in ensuring safe working practices and environments. But I feel that they're not doing their members, the railways, or its passengers any favours in pursuing this cause.
 
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yorkie

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This thread is a Traction & Rolling Stock discussion to discuss Merseyrail Class 777s, it is not a discussion on the pros and cons of any particular mode of operation of trains.

Can we please get back to discussing the trains themselves, thanks :)
 

Luke McDonnell

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When do you expect the first 777 to be in revenue earning service as my local station is South Parkway and I travel on Merseyrail frequently so I am looking forward to these in service. Will they be introduced gradually and then the 507s and 508s will be withdrawn by next year and when they are withdrawn will there be some sort of farewell tour or event after 40 years service?

Regards,

Luke
 

jamesst

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When do you expect the first 777 to be in revenue earning service as my local station is South Parkway and I travel on Merseyrail frequently so I am looking forward to these in service. Will they be introduced gradually and then the 507s and 508s will be withdrawn by next year and when they are withdrawn will there be some sort of farewell tour or event after 40 years service?

Regards,

Luke

From what I can remember the Southport/ Hunts Cross line will be the last to get the new units so i think you'll be looking at later in 2021 before one makes it to South Parkway in passenger service.
 

MR-507508

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It appears that they have stopped C4 overhauls of the 507/8 fleet, which would make 508125 the final beneficiary.

Does anyone know what 508134's last passenger working was please, i.e. before the tour?

I have heard 508134 had not been in passenger service since early December 2019. My last trip of 134 (besides the rail tour) was on 2nd December 2019.

More recently, after spending the past few weeks since working the rail tour on 26th Jan stabled in the sidings at New Brighton, 508134 made the journey ECS over to Kirkdale depot last week.
Mid afternoon last Thursday it was situated half inside the new maintenance shed, where 777003 is stored.
Most of the time, 134 is stabled just outside the maintenance shed, sometimes with a red flashing light on its front end.
 

jamesst

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I have heard 508134 had not been in passenger service since early December 2019. My last trip of 134 (besides the rail tour) was on 2nd December 2019.

More recently, after spending the past few weeks since working the rail tour on 26th Jan stabled in the sidings at New Brighton, 508134 made the journey ECS over to Kirkdale depot last week.
Mid afternoon last Thursday it was situated half inside the new maintenance shed, where 777003 is stored.
Most of the time, 134 is stabled just outside the maintenance shed, sometimes with a red flashing light on its front end.

I think Its being used as the dedicated unit when the 777 is pulled around kirkdale depot to test various things.
 

urbophile

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2021 for Hunts Cross! Why is it taking so long? How long did it take to introduce the whole of the present fleet?
 

F262YTJ

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2021 for Hunts Cross! Why is it taking so long? How long did it take to introduce the units between 1982 and 1985whole of the present fleet?
The 507s took from 1978 to 1980 to replace the 502s.
IIRC the 508s were intially on Southern region as 4 car units as 5080xx and reached Merseyrail as 3 car 5081xx units between 1982 and 1985 to replace 503s.
 

F262YTJ

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After a quick bit of research the 508s were built in 1979 and 1980 reaching Merseyrail from 1983.
 

prod_pep

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The 507s took from 1978 to 1980 to replace the 502s.

The fact the 507s were built in two batches at least partly explains the lengthy replacement period. After 507030 was completed in 1979, there was a hiatus of over a year while BREL York built the 508s (which were for the Southern Region initially). 507031-033 followed in 1980, with the last delivery to Merseyside on 05/06/80.
 

HSTEd

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Is there any suggestion that there will be track works once the 777s are in service to improve speeds and such?
There seem to be a bunch of places on the system where speed limits could be raised with significant journey time advantages.

(Like there seems to be a lot of 60mph running even when statinos are 2 miles apart on the West Kirby line, and a high performance EMU should be able to make use of at least 75 in that distance.)
 

M28361M

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The March issue of Today's Railways UK has an interesting feature on the 777s. I won't reproduce the full article (a lot of typing, also buy the magazine!) but here are some highlights:

The original plan was to have the first unit delivered by June 2019, however construction was delayed by flooding at the Bode factory in Kassel, Germany, where the door equipment was being manufactured.

It says testing of 777003 was due to start on 2-3 February (which I don't think has happened, presumably this has slipped due to the late delivery of 003) - running within a signal protected zone overnights Sunday-Thursday on the Kirkby branch.

777004 is to go to Wildenrath to join 001/002 for testing. 777005 is being assembled in Poland and will be delivered to Liverpool at the end of March. 777006, assembled in Switzerland, due to arrive in April. Eventually deliveries will be weekly. It is hoped to deliver units by rail as 003 was, but if the SNCF strikes continue to cause problems they may be sent by ship from Germany instead.

Merseytravel hope the first set will be accepted into service by summer. Each set will be confined to the Kirkby line for the first 8 weeks in service, to keep them as close to Kirkdale depot as possible in the event of problems.

May 2021 is the planned date for all units to be in service, with a new timetable introduced later that year. Plan is for 48 out of 52 units to be diagrammed, with a similar number of 8-car trains running as 6-car 507/508 trains today.

Southport station is described as "challenging" in terms of the layout changes needed for 8-car operation. No 8-car services on Southport-Hunts Cross line until next year.

Some units will be fitted with batteries to operate beyond the confines of the 3rd rail network. There is space to fit a transformer to allow dual-voltage operation, but not enough room for both on one unit, it is one or the other.

Stadler is investigating using Birkenhead North depot as a "centre of excellence" for bogies, where all Stadler bogies (not just 777s) will be overhauled.

A 777 will be one of the Stadler products exhibited at InnoTrans in Berlin in September.
 
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MR-507508

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There was an article published in the Liverpool Echo this week reporting on a graffiti vandal who has been jailed for targeting trains on the Merseyrail network, reportedly up to 5 times a week.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/new...iti-vandals-target-merseyrail-trains-17768438
Two vandals who caused more than £100k worth of damage to Merseyrail trains were sentenced on Friday.

Aiden Williams, 28, of Treetops Drive, Wirral, and Kyle Smith, 26, of Ribble Street Birkenhead, both pleaded guilty to two counts of conspiracy to commit criminal damage.

Liverpool Crown Court heard how the pair carried out a spate of vandalism on Merseyrail trains in Wirral, committing over 40 offences in a 20 month period between January 2018 and September 2019.
Quite ironic but I have seen at least two units over the past few days (507003 and 507025) which have suffered bad graffiti attacks.

Overall, you often do not see tagged trains on the network-often just the residue of a previous attack (either removing some of the livery or around the metal frames of the windows).

I do wonder how well the 777's will cope with such attacks?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Interesting that the battery concept has reappeared - I thought it had been dropped. Wigan Wallgate bay seems to be the most sensible place to go with that in the first instance.
 

Lloyds siding

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Does the sea air on Merseyside, especially on the West Kirby, New Brighton and Southport lines, increase corrosion? It was once calculated that the hand-waxing practice in use at Birkenhead since Mersey Railway days extended the life of stock by a year compared with acid solution washing.
Yes! In the days when I worked measuring air pollution I had a Network Rail engineer on the phone. He said that they had more corrosion problems with trackside equipment at Southport than anywhere else on Merseyside, and asked if there was a particular air pollution problem at Southport. I said yes, salt! Otherwise, no.
 

D365

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Interesting that the battery concept has reappeared - I thought it had been dropped. Wigan Wallgate bay seems to be the most sensible place to go with that in the first instance.

I wasn’t under the impression that it had been completely dropped?
 

AllanA1981

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A small number will have batteries for off 3rd rail running and Merseryrail have confirmed already that testing of this mode will take place on the Ormskirk to Preston line.

All units have small batteries for depot shunting etc anyway.

Class 777 are also easily convertible to facilitate pantographs for overhead running.

These features and options were factored in from the beginning to make expansion on the network easier to do in the future.
 

TheSel

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... IIRC the 508s were intially on Southern region as 4 car units as 5080xx and reached Merseyrail as 3 car 5081xx units between 1982 and 1985 to replace 503s.

Not quite. Some, at least, were initially used on Merseyside as three car sets but retaining their 5080xx numbers.

See below 508040 at Hall Road in April 1984. Apologies for the quality - these are scans from slides taken on a very dull Sunday, when due to engineering works, the service was curtailed to run Hunts Cross - Hall Road and 'bustituted' on to Southport (hence the use of the northbound platform for a southbound service, and the use of the crossover - which is why I took the shots anyway!)

508040 Hall Road (1).jpg 508040 Hall Road (2).jpg

My 'journey log' records that I travelled on the 1648 Moorfields - Southport on 30 June 1984, and it was operated by 508039.

A fortnight later (14 July 1984) I travelled on 508114 on the Kirkby line, and 508042 on the Southport line, so it looks like the renumbering took some time (i.e. not "overnight"). Perhaps those whose last three numbers clashed with the resident 507s (i.e. up to 033) were done first to avoid confusion?

By 2 September, 508039 had been renumbered 508139, when I recorded this on the 1900 Hunts Cross - Southport.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not just to replace 503s I think, but also because of the frequency increase. When the system opened it ran on a 20 minute frequency (I *only just* remember this as a very small kid, it used to freak me out for some reason when the Solari displays showed nothing, which stopped happening when the frequency was upped), and so more units were needed to up it to the 15 minute frequency that has operated since then.
 

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