Another Delay Repay question..multi leg journey, both delayed.

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Looking for some expert advice, and google found you! Hello Rail Forums!

currently in a position of trying to get a train operator to accept my claim, as the two providers are bouncing it back and forth

situation is this.

London euston to Southport - Via Wigan.

avanti west coast train left euston on time, but arrived at Wigan 27 mins late, and I missed my northern connection (which was cancelled anyway), waited for the next one which was also cancelled. Got the third northern train, and arrived back at Southport about 1hour 15 mins late.

avanti are saying they are not responsible for the cancelled train connections, even though I would have missed it, and north western are saying they are not responsible as I would have missed my connecting train anyway (even though it was cancelled).

Is there any precident on who takes responsibility in situations like this?

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Welcome to the forum

If the Avanti train being late resulted in a missed connection, then regardless of what happened with further delays, Avanti are responsible to pay Delay Repay for the full delay into your final destination. If further Northern trains were cancelled and/or delayed and this pushes the delay up to 60mins that doesn't get Avanti out of it: it's all down to Avanti.

So, if the Avanti had been on time, would you have made the connection? If the answer is yes then it's really simple and Avanti are wrong. Is that the case? It's not entirely clear from your post above.

If it is a simple as that, you can ask Avanti for a deadlock letter (ie. a statement that they have made a final decision, if they have not done so already), and then refer the matter to the Rail Ombudsman: https://www.railombudsman.org/making-a-complaint/start-a-complaint/

On the other hand, if the Northern train you would have got was cancelled and in fact, if the Avanti train had been on time into Wigan, you would have ended up on the exact same Northern train you actually caught, then I would say Avanti are correct as they did not cause any delay, in which case Northern are responsible in my view. This is based on my understanding that the first operator who causes a delay to your overall journey is responsible for the entire delay into your final destination. Not everyone agrees with me, but based on the wording that I've seen, that would be the position. There are precedents for this; see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...h-companies-are-at-fault.196732/#post-4336295 (TPE paid out because the Avanti train did not cause a missed connection and they woud have got to the destination no earlier if Avanti had been on time)

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Thanks, sounds like it fits the second.

even if avanti would have been on time, I could not have made my connection, as the northern rail train was cancelled.

guess it’s back to northern then

thank you!

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2020

Had the Northern train not been cancelled would you have made it with the official connection time (i.e. you can get an itinerary for it)? If so, it's still Avanti on the hook in my view. Northern did not cause a delay in what actually happened. They would have done had Avanti been on time, but they weren't, so they didn't.

Though I recognise this differs from @yorkie's view and he is more experienced than me at this matter.

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Just for clarity,

journey should have been

London to Wigan north western, d1630, a1825

wigan Wallgate to Southport, d1837, a1910

what actually happened was this

Avanti depart London euston 1630, arrived in Wigan 1852 (27 mins late)

the northern 1837 (the connection I would have missed) and the 1901 were both cancelled, so got the next available train at 1938, which got me to Southport at 2018

lol, it’s like trying to work out maths puzzles at school!

gray1404 · 23 Feb 2020

What would also be useful is if you could provide copies of the correspondence you have received from both Northern and Avanti (with things like your name extracted). Then we can advise on your next steps.

What tickets were you using for your journey? What was your date of travel?

alistairlees · 23 Feb 2020

AlexHaden said:
Just for clarity,

journey should have been

London to Wigan north western, d1630, a1825

wigan Wallgate to Southport, d1837, a1910

what actually happened was this

Avanti depart London euston 1630, arrived in Wigan 1852 (27 mins late)

the northern 1837 (the connection I would have missed) and the 1901 were both cancelled, so got the next available train at 1938, which got me to Southport at 2018

lol, it’s like trying to work out maths puzzles at school!

Hi

The minimum connection time from Wigan NW to Wigan Wallgate is 11 minutes (5 minutes interchange at North Western; 1 minute walk to Wallgate; 5 minutes interchange time at Wallgate).

Officially you could not have caught any train earlier than 19.03 from Wallgate (because of the delay). You are not obliged to go more quickly than this, even though you may be able to do so. So the earliest possible train you were obliged to get from Wallgate was the 19.38.

Your delay was entirely caused by Avanti and it's irrelevant whether Northern cancelled any trains. You would not have been able to catch these even had they run, because of Avanti's delay.

There is no need for you to mention the cancelled Northern trains. Just state what you had an itinerary for and what you actually did.

Avanti should pay out.

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Just the rejected note on the delay repay dashboards at the moment, northern say they have forwarded to avanti, avanti then tell me to claim through northern

Trying to work out which one to appeal

it was Thursday 20/2, anytime single (booked train 1630 out of euston to Wigan and the one I travelled on)

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Thanks for all the advice - really appreciate it!

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Had the Northern train not been cancelled would you have made it with the official connection time (i.e. you can get an itinerary for it)? If so, it's still Avanti on the hook in my view. Northern did not cause a delay in what actually happened. They would have done had Avanti been on time, but they weren't, so they didn't.

Though I recognise this differs from @yorkie's view and he is more experienced than me at this matter.

That's one interpretation, but you could equally say:

Had the Avanti train not been delayed would you have made the same connection? If so, it's still Northern on the hook in my view. Avanti did not cause a delay into your destination in what actually happened. They would have done had Northern been on time, but they weren't, so they didn't.

It's not clear to me what the rule is. The rule might be:

If the first train company whose train was late, would have caused a missed connection if that connection had run, then the first company is liable, even if the connection was not actually missed (e.g. because the onward train was delayed or cancelled) - ie. we are basing it on the hypothetical situation that the connection would have been made in a theoretical set of circumstances of the Northern train running, even if those circumstances did not actually occur.

or alternatively it might be:

If the first train company whose train was late, did not actually cause the passenger to miss an onward connection (e.g. because the customer made an alternative train, or the onward train was cancelled or delayed), but the second company's train(s) being cancelled or delayed resulted in the customer being delayed into their destination, and the delay would not have been any different had the first train been on time, then the second company is liable

I cannot find any documented evidence to prove categorically which of these is the actual rule.

The general principle we are told is that the operator of the first train that caused a delay to the overall journey is the operator that is liable. In this case, we have to consider if Avanti can be deemed to have "caused" a delay given that the customer was doomed to be 60+ minutes late into Southport no matter what happened to the Avanti train? If so, the system is bonkers. But if DfT/RDG state that is the position, I will happily change my view accordingly. Until then, I don't see how Avanti can be deemed liable for issues where their train could have been on time and it would have made no difference to the final arrival time into the customers destination.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2020

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-national-delay-repay-clearing-house.200916/

Thought this for a while, let's have a thread. This case is one where it would solve the problem in a stroke.

gray1404 · 23 Feb 2020

So what are we recommending the OP does now?

CheapAndNerdy · 23 Feb 2020

This almost exactly replicates my delay repay problem I had with Avanti before Christmas. The Avanti service was 60 minutes late into Wigan North Western, but because the official Northern connection at Wallgate was cancelled, Avanti tried to palm it off onto Northern. I told them not to be stupid and they relented on appeal. I also raised the matter with First Group's Data Protection Officer on the grounds that Avanti passed my data onto a third party in error. I'm still awaiting the outcome of this. Nothing may come of it but hopefully it will force Avanti to be more careful in the future.

Saperstein · 23 Feb 2020

Umm, Difficult one this.

I think claim from Avanti because their train was the first train delayed on the OPs journey regardless of further delays from Northern.

But also claim from Northern because of the two cancelled trains further down the line (no pun intended).

Not fair on the OP but if all else fails get a deadlock letter and let the RO sort it.

This sort of case is where having one organisation dealing with Delay Repay instead of separate TOCs would be a boon.

Saperstein.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Saperstein said:
Umm, Difficult one this.

I think claim from Avanti because their train was the first train delayed on the OPs journey regardless of further delays from Northern.

But also claim from Northern because of the two cancelled trains further down the line (no pun intended).

No; it doesn't work like that.

Either Avanti are deemed liable (even though the delay to their train did not cause a missed connection in this case) or Northern are deemed liable.

But you can't claim from both!

Saperstein · 23 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
No; it doesn't work like that.

Either Avanti are deemed liable (even though the delay to their train did not cause a missed connection in this case) or Northern are deemed liable.

But you can't claim from both!

OK. As I under stand it there is a time limit on claiming? 28 days?

So if the OP claims from Avanti say and is ultimately unsuccessful what recourse does he/she have to go after Northern later?

I feel my bit about taking it to the Ombudsman is accurate otherwise the OP could be stuck in the middle (between the two TOC’s) for sometime.

Not fair on the OP and unfortunately a lot of pax would give up at this point.

Saperstein

alistairlees · 23 Feb 2020

As I explained in post #7, it's Avanti's fault. They were late, thus the OP got a later Northern train and arrived very late at his / her destination. What else is there to say?

Hadders · 23 Feb 2020

My experience of appealing erroneously rejected Delay Repay claims by Avanti is that you have to do this online. Customer Relations will not deal with them.

Just means more hassle for customers....

Haywain · 23 Feb 2020

Avanti were late making the arrival at the final destination late. Avanti at fault. Simples!

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

alistairlees said:
As I explained in post #7, it's Avanti's fault. They were late, thus the OP got a later Northern train and arrived very late at his / her destination. What else is there to say?

In this case they got the exact same Northern train they would have got if the Avanti had arrived bang on time.

Tetchytyke · 23 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
In this case they got the exact same Northern train they would have got if the Avanti had arrived bang on time.

But equally in this case, because of the MCT, they got the exact same Northern train they'd have caught even if the other two ran on time.

Hadders said:
Just means more hassle for customers....

Anyone would think First had a vested interest in making Delay Repay as hard as possible.

The new TPE Delay Repay website doesn't work either!

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Tetchytyke said:
But equally in this case, because of the MCT, they got the exact same Northern train they'd have caught even if the other two ran on time.

But should Delay Repay not be based on what actually happened? i.e. an onward connection was not actually missed.

Saperstein · 23 Feb 2020

Tetchytyke said:
Anyone would think First had a vested interest in making Delay Repay as hard as possible.

You mean they don't <SHOCK>

Saperstein.

Tetchytyke · 23 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
But should Delay Repay not be based on what actually happened?

Avanti arrived 1852, MCT is 11 mins, so the earliest train they had any chance of catching from Wallgate was 1903 or after. Therefore any cancellations prior to 1903 are irrelevant.

It's all on Avanti this one.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Tetchytyke said:
Avanti arrived 1852, MCT is 11 mins, so the earliest train they had any chance of catching from Wallgate was 1903 or after. Therefore any cancellations prior to 1903 are irrelevant.

It's all on Avanti this one.

OK so your view is that if your train arrives late at the interchange station, you are deemed to have missed the onward connection, even if the onward connection did not actually run?

Maybe that is what the DfT and Rail Delivery Group have as a rule; if so they need to make it clear.

But it would make more sense not to deal with hypotheticals and pretend the onward train ran (when it did not!) and instead ask the question: did the delay to the Avanti train actually cause a missed connection? The answer, very clearly is no it did not. Had Avanti been on time, the delay would have been the same.

Do we go by hypotheticals, pretending Northern ran a train when they didn't? If that is the rule, then fair enough but no-one has said that it is, so until the DfT/RDG clarify, I think it makes more sense to go by what trains actually ran rather than pretending a Northern train ran.

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Glad my first ever delay repay is so complex I’ll keep you all posted with progress.....

I’ll see where I get with avanti next week, if not, it’s over to the ombudsman I guess!

thanks for all the pointers on this, agree, they don’t make it easy!

Haywain · 23 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
OK so your view is that if your train arrives late at the interchange station, you are deemed to have missed the onward connection, even if the onward connection did not actually run?

Maybe that is what the DfT and Rail Delivery Group have as a rule; if so they need to make it clear.

But it would make more sense not to deal with hypotheticals and pretend the onward train ran (when it did not!) and instead ask the question: did the delay to the Avanti train actually cause a missed connection? The answer, very clearly is no it did not. Had Avanti been on time, the delay would have been the same.

Do we go by hypotheticals, pretending Northern ran a train when they didn't? If that is the rule, then fair enough but no-one has said that it is, so until the DfT/RDG clarify, I think it makes more sense to go by what trains actually ran rather than pretending a Northern train ran.

It seems to me that pretending the Avanti train was on time is also dealing in hypotheticals.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Haywain said:
It seems to me that pretending the Avanti train was on time is also dealing in hypotheticals.

I'd have thought the question would be: did the delay to this train cause a connection to be missed?

If the rule is that you give the actual answer to the question (in this case, no) then Northern are liable for the 65 min delay into Southport.

If the rule is that you give a hypothetical answer to that question (in this case, yes it would have missed the connection if the Northern train had run on time) then Avanti are liable for the 65 min delay into Southport.

Is the rule clarified anywhere? I've looked and can't find it. In the absence of anything to the contrary, I'd take the approach of deeming the company who actually caused the delay to be liable.

IamTrainsYT · 23 Feb 2020

From twitter
https://mobile.twitter.com/RailFareWatch/status/1231635530196144130

RailFareWatch said:
if there was no onward train provided by TOC B in the entire time between the booked arrival at interchange station and the time the customer actually got an onward train, do we go by what actually happened or what should have theoretically happened?
in other words, do we accept there was no onward train provided by TOC B in that time & therefore deem TOC B liable for the delay. or do we take the view that *if* hypothetically TOC B had not cancelled a train, TOC A would have caused a missed connection, and deem TOC A liable?

AlexHaden · 23 Feb 2020

Interesting, thank you! I’ll watch with interest!

claim is with Avanti again now, after northern has rejected it, I have asked northern to reconsider based on all the feedback from here. So another question, as the claim was sent to avanti after northern denied it, do I cancel the avanti claim and see what northern do with the appeal? Don’t want to get in a muddle with two claims for the same thing.

Another Delay Repay question..multi leg journey, both delayed.

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