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C4 video: Why are Britain's trains bad? - accidental but interesing find

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al78

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During one of my idle Youtube surfing phases, I stumbled across this video, titled "Why are Britain's trains bad?"

I had a look, expecting significant bias, but it comes across as reasonably objective. I don't know enough to know if the claims in the video are true or misleading, but thought I would post here to see what people who know far more than me about the UK railway think in terms of its accuracy.

 
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TheEdge

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It's a decent piece without too much bias for or against anything and factually pretty good. Not much hyperbole

And at least stresses that nationalisation is not a magic fix and the importance of NR and infrastructure in the whole affair.
 

quantinghome

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Fundamentally, splitting the track and trains between different companies is a bad idea. Recombining them is necessary, but has foundered because the only practical way of doing it is to bring the operators back into public ownership, something which our present government is ideologically opposed to. Who knows, they may do it eventually, but only after exhausting the alternatives.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fundamentally, splitting the track and trains between different companies is a bad idea.

It is and it isn't. It was probably not the right thing to do (if they had to privatise BR plc might have made more sense - the privatisations on that model generally haven't been that bad) but it is not to me the primary cause of the issue. I'm less sure what that is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't that.
 

underbank

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Fundamentally, splitting the track and trains between different companies is a bad idea. Recombining them is necessary, but has foundered because the only practical way of doing it is to bring the operators back into public ownership, something which our present government is ideologically opposed to. Who knows, they may do it eventually, but only after exhausting the alternatives.

Trouble is the debt, i.e. the leasing of the rolling stock which would impact the deficit/national debt etc and affect the country's credit rating. It's why Gordon Brown loved his PFI deals for new schools and hospitals. There'd have to be some financial re-jigging for the govt to be able to take over the leasing contracts without hitting the country's balance sheet. Suddenly taking over billions of debt (all the leases) would have a massive negative impact on the country's credit rating etc. It's probably why the franchising model happened in the first place - the govt at the time knew that huge numbers of new trains were about to be needed and knew that the govt couldn't finance them, hence transferring the operations/finance to private firms - classic off balance sheet financing.
 

underbank

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It is and it isn't. It was probably not the right thing to do (if they had to privatise BR plc might have made more sense - the privatisations on that model generally haven't been that bad) but it is not to me the primary cause of the issue. I'm less sure what that is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't that.

As the report said, most of the delays etc are caused by the infrastructure, i.e. the govt owned part of the railway (Network Rail) which kinds of scuppers the "national is best" argument.
 

mpthomson

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Trouble is the debt, i.e. the leasing of the rolling stock which would impact the deficit/national debt etc and affect the country's credit rating. It's why Gordon Brown loved his PFI deals for new schools and hospitals. There'd have to be some financial re-jigging for the govt to be able to take over the leasing contracts without hitting the country's balance sheet. Suddenly taking over billions of debt (all the leases) would have a massive negative impact on the country's credit rating etc. It's probably why the franchising model happened in the first place - the govt at the time knew that huge numbers of new trains were about to be needed and knew that the govt couldn't finance them, hence transferring the operations/finance to private firms - classic off balance sheet financing.

And the only thing they could have done at the time to get new trains operating. Same with all the PFI hospitals as well. As hopeless as many of the contractual arrangements are it was either that or don't have new hospitals.
 

F Great Eastern

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As the report said, most of the delays etc are caused by the infrastructure, i.e. the govt owned part of the railway (Network Rail) which kinds of scuppers the "national is best" argument.

The whole current system is gamed so the government can privatise the blame and nationalise the praise through micromanagement behind the scenes and failing to deliver promises, in the knowledge that the lesser informed public will blame the operator for something that may be outside of their control, rather than blaming them.

Unfortunately the Department for Transport and the government is rather more focused on ensuring that people are blaming someone else rather than them, rather than just focusing on the quality of rail services in the infrastructure in this country.

See also: Hiving schools off to be controlled by academy trusts rather than the state, so when a school fails due to underfunding, the government can wash it's hands of any blame and point to the trust, independent from the state, as being the problem.

Also I'm not sure that creating one massive company is going to be as successful as people think. Sometimes you have these huge companies who are so big that they move terribly slowly, are stuck in the past and are slow to do anything to modernise things, as their size stifles any progress.
 
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Bletchleyite

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As the report said, most of the delays etc are caused by the infrastructure, i.e. the govt owned part of the railway (Network Rail) which kinds of scuppers the "national is best" argument.

It doesn't do anything of the sort, as the benefits of nationalisation don't just relate to whether delays will reduce or not (which I agree, they wouldn't, because the fundamental problem there is that we are overusing the infrastructure with short trains in most places outside London in a way other countries don't).
 

underbank

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Sometimes you have these huge companies who are so big that they move terribly slowly, are stuck in the past and are slow to do anything to modernise things, as their size stifles any progress.

Depends more on the staff/ethos/structure rather than size. Just look at huge global firms like Apple, Google, Amazon - they're far bigger that the DfT but certainly aren't stuck in the past nor slow to modernise things.
 

dosxuk

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Depends more on the staff/ethos/structure rather than size. Just look at huge global firms like Apple, Google, Amazon - they're far bigger that the DfT but certainly aren't stuck in the past nor slow to modernise things.

No, because they're the next scale up - bigger than the governments - they are big enough to do as they like and if any pesky little things like laws come along, they can either tie them up in endless court cases or give away a few seconds worth of profits to make it go away.

That said, I wouldn't include Apple in your list, because despite being one of the most wealthy companies in the world, they have spent the last few years floundering rather than progressing. It's been a long while since they released something *new* rather than just updated or with a new font.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Depends more on the staff/ethos/structure rather than size. Just look at huge global firms like Apple, Google, Amazon - they're far bigger that the DfT but certainly aren't stuck in the past nor slow to modernise things.

But those companies are hugely profitable and don't make demands on the public purse.
The railway will always be in hoc to government whim as long as it needs £2-5 billion a year in subsidy.
 

InOban

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And it will always deserve that subsidy because most of the benefits of the railway acrue to other organisations and to the country at large.
 

HSTEd

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There'd have to be some financial re-jigging for the govt to be able to take over the leasing contracts without hitting the country's balance sheet. Suddenly taking over billions of debt (all the leases) would have a massive negative impact on the country's credit rating etc. It's probably why the franchising model happened in the first place - the govt at the time knew that huge numbers of new trains were about to be needed and knew that the govt couldn't finance them, hence transferring the operations/finance to private firms - classic off balance sheet financing.
It will make absolutely no difference to the credit rating.
Everyone in the financial world knows the government is functionally on the hook for all this.

This system exists to allow the chancellor to lie to the public about the state of the public finances, nothing more
 

Master29

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As the report said, most of the delays etc are caused by the infrastructure, i.e. the govt owned part of the railway (Network Rail) which kinds of scuppers the "national is best" argument.
Or conversely it could be argued as a blame game
 

Re 4/4

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Well, I'd say NR is doing better than Railtrack PLC used to at some things - the Hatfield disaster comes to mind.
 

RailWonderer

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The infrastructure is inherently Victorian.
The nature of the material and placement of points, signalboxes, track work, bridges, viaducts, terrain and all else, being inflexible to significant modification means only building new lines and infrastructure is a viable solution, hence HS2. Each part of the country has its own problems.

Anglia has far too many level crossings and viaducts, that would be solved by underpasses and land shifting or building in a different location if they were to build it today.
The WCML has too many twists and bends and not enough four tracking.
The ECML has to share the line around Grantham with 90mph class 158 trains etc.

Every region has its unique infrastructure limitations that Europe learned from when building their railways decades and sometimes an entire century later.
 

R G NOW.

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I like our railways as they were built, We have some really scenic routes in the uk, built by the Victorians that were added to and added to over many years. I bet It still happens. Take Worcestershire parkway for example. A new station that will get added to in the coming years, probably with more toilets and canopies added to the length of the platforms.
 

Harpers Tate

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It's too easy to place blame (what was it - 60-odd percent?) on the Network Rail and its infrastructure. Sure - it's hugely lacking, and a significant part of that shortfall probably arose in the irrational rationalisation that BR did back in the 70/80s; removal of anything surplus like points, sidings, multi-tracking, longer block sections and so on.

(I may be inaccurate in this distant recollection but) AFAIR there is a single block section north of Beverley that extends all the way to either Hutton Cranswick (~10 minutes) or Driffield (15+ minutes) meaning, of course that a late-running service cannot be followed until at least 10 or 15 minutes later. Thus one late train has the propensity to make the next train late as well - because of rationalisation. The situation is worse, of course, on the miles of single(d) track we enjoy nowadays across the network.

But as regards (let me call it) general late running - let's consider a hypothetical situation. You are waiting at Rotherham for your train to Doncaster (which started at Sheffield; it's not a "through" train from elsewhere), and it's late (again). Why is it late? Suppose it's because either the train itself or one or more of the crew (or both) are delayed arriving into Sheffield because they were working a delayed departure from Leeds, which in turn was delayed by another late running service there blocking their path, which in turn was caused by something in Manchester and so on.....

We could extend our consideration to the events in Leeds or in Manchester (which will be equally relevant) but for the sake of simplicity, let's just consider the Sheffield departure.

Were there a spare train and/or crew available in Sheffield, your departure from Rotherham might have operated on time using this spare resource. But constant cost reductions on the Railway (both public and private) mean that there is insufficient money spent on spare resource; there are no extra trains and few (insufficient) spare staff. It relies to too great an extent on every piece of the diagramming jigsaw (for BOTH staff and equipment) to fit together as planned in order to work. And when something does go wrong (whether it be a cause outside the railway - trespassing or suicide for example - or within it) the jigsaw falls apart.

This could potentially be remedied quickly. What is immediately needed is a cost penalty to be imposed on the operator as part of their contract for failure to operate (whether punctually or at all). It needs to be pitched at such a level that it ceases to be cost-effective to operate unreliably; such that it is cheaper in the long run to have spare resource in place to cover contingencies than it is to simply fail to run to time. It must NOT be cheaper to fail than it is to succeed.

That works, of course, only when private enterprise is contracted to operate the services as it would focus their financial minds on performance improvement as a cost-limiting factor rather than the sunk cost of over provision for contingency. But there is little to be gained in "fining" an operator in the public sector, as Northern will shortly become, as there is no net loss to anyone. In such a case, the only meaningful solution is to offer personal incentives and disincentives to those in charge such that they, too, deem it beneficial to provide enough resource resilience to cover such contingencies.

Which just leaves us with the question of where to park the spare trains (eg at Sheffield) and we're back to rationalisation again.
 

frodshamfella

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I traveled last Sunday from Frodsham to Liverpool Lime Street, no problem going train on time, quite a few passengers on board. Saw a film had a meal, strolled back to Lime Street, cancelled , so an hours wait !

Cancellations on an hourly is not good, its off putting for passengers to use. You need to be able to depend on the train running. Not so bad if its a frequent service.
 

LMS 4F

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Surely it depends on what is meant by bad. If I catch a LNER service from Leeds to KX it will get me in on the advertised time or close otherwise I can claim some or all of my fare back.
The same journey by car would take far longer, I couldn't hope to estimate a time of arrival within an hour unless I went ridiculously slowly. This experience could be repeated on thousands of different journeys across the country.
Of course there are problems, with rolling stock, infrastructure and investment but many more people have a decent journey everyday than those who don't. However it is human nature to highlight the problems.
I have made thousands or rail journeys throughout my 70 plus years and by far the majority have been positive and achieved what I expected. Those that have badly let me down I can count on my fingers.Some of the most memorable for delays etc have been overseas, particularly in the USA.
 

Bletchleyite

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I traveled last Sunday from Frodsham to Liverpool Lime Street, no problem going train on time, quite a few passengers on board. Saw a film had a meal, strolled back to Lime Street, cancelled , so an hours wait !

Cancellations on an hourly is not good, its off putting for passengers to use. You need to be able to depend on the train running. Not so bad if its a frequent service.

I would rather a two-hourly 6 coach service I could set my watch by than an hourly 3 coach service that is unreliable. I suspect new Northern may take heed of this.
 

billio

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Trouble is the debt, i.e. the leasing of the rolling stock which would impact the deficit/national debt etc and affect the country's credit rating. It's why Gordon Brown loved his PFI deals for new schools and hospitals. There'd have to be some financial re-jigging for the govt to be able to take over the leasing contracts without hitting the country's balance sheet. Suddenly taking over billions of debt (all the leases) would have a massive negative impact on the country's credit rating etc. It's probably why the franchising model happened in the first place - the govt at the time knew that huge numbers of new trains were about to be needed and knew that the govt couldn't finance them, hence transferring the operations/finance to private firms - classic off balance sheet financing.

When BR was privatised the government owned the stock which was sold to the train leasing companies for franchise holders to lease back. The government could have kept the stock and leased it directly to the franchising companies whilst still receiving income direct from the railways. Instead, for a one-off, probably underpriced income from the sale, the government gave up this continuous revenue stream which could have been used to part-fund new stock, to a system resulting in stock leasing having a much greater impact on fares than it should have had.

Now franchising companies have to lease or rent stock at effective interest rates way beyond the government might have to pay, a reduction that could be passed on to franchising companies.

In future, as stock is leased for a limited period, when a leasing contract ends the government can switch over to new arrangements where they invest in and own the stock. Although this might be achieved by debt, the rate the government will pay will be low and this debt is used to create an asset, the stock providing a future income stream to be balanced against the debt.
 

158756

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I would rather a two-hourly 6 coach service I could set my watch by than an hourly 3 coach service that is unreliable. I suspect new Northern may take heed of this.

Most likely with the way Northern operate that would just result in a similar frequency of cancellations, but now resulting in a four hour wait. You could have spare units lying around waiting though, because a two-hourly frequency on such short routes isn't going to need either 3 or 6 coaches.
 

daikilo

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What if by doing just a few things our railways could be considered generally good? E.g.
1) getting new stock into service and reliable, and maybe adding a bit more
2) recruiting missing crews and finding a solution satisfactory for RMT
3) maybe resolving the worst infrastructure bottlenecks/weaknesses
Then we could get on with preparing the whole network for the desired evolutions for climate change (more rail traffic).
 

samuelmorris

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Making the railway system we have now fit for purpose requires a lot of work but isn't insurmountable - restart electrification programmes, bring rolling stock replacement schedules back on track (no pun intended) with replacement of all pre-privatisation diesel stock with contemporary electrics/bimodes as appropriate, replace the franchising model with one that's actually organised properly and set realistic but much more lofty expectations of services in general.

Once that's underway, serious attention could be paid to how rail could be utilised to reduce the carbon footprint of travel by introduction of new routes/services. That one's a lot more difficult and will require a lot more public spending.
 

Gostav

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As a foreigner l think Britain's railway use too many flat junctions, particularly on some busy section such as Manchester and Stockport. Some double junctions have very low speed limit for the branch aspect ie 15 mph.
Also, some sidings and platforms should be back such as Hope Valley Line, the express can overtake the delayed stopper and freighter.
 
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The Ham

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But those companies are hugely profitable and don't make demands on the public purse.
The railway will always be in hoc to government whim as long as it needs £2-5 billion a year in subsidy.

Define what that subsidy is for.

Is it the day to day running of the railways or is it for the day to day running of the railways and the spending on enhancements?

Typically the day to day subsidy is less than £0.5bn (with some years being less than half that amount) with the spending on enhancements taking the vast majority of the "subsidy" being quoted.
 

yorksrob

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I think calling the railways "bad" is a great oversimplification. A lot of the time, I find the service actually to be quite good, and I travel around on trains quite a lot. Admittedly, confidence in the system has taken a knock in the last couple of years, with a perfect storm up here of industrial action and timetable/staffing problems, however over the last six months or so, things feel like they're getting better. Even the transpennine core is feeling less hellish, so long as you're prepared to forego the ram-packed 3 carriage airport service and wait for one of the new trains.

There seem to me to be two main problems:
  • There has been a considerable growth in passenger demand over the last twenty years, and we haven't got anywhere near keeping up with it. On Northern, up until this year, we were still trying to accommodate this on largely the same fleet as twenty years ago. There should have been more ongoing investment over the last twenty years to increase train lengths over time, rather than expecting everything to happen in one go.
  • The cost of infrastructure enhancements. A lot of this stems from the parsimonious demands of previous Governments, incentivising BR to rip tracks up - it costs a hell of a lot more to put that second track back than would have been saved by removing it. Also, the costs of everything such as platform extensions, electrification, signalling etc seems to be very high, meaning that what should be fairly pedestrian enhancements, such as putting in a passing loop, or building a station are very high. We need to go back to WYPTE's example of cost-effective wooden platforms of the 1980's.
 

The Ham

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I think calling the railways "bad" is a great oversimplification. A lot of the time, I find the service actually to be quite good, and I travel around on trains quite a lot. Admittedly, confidence in the system has taken a knock in the last couple of years, with a perfect storm up here of industrial action and timetable/staffing problems, however over the last six months or so, things feel like they're getting better. Even the transpennine core is feeling less hellish, so long as you're prepared to forego the ram-packed 3 carriage airport service and wait for one of the new trains.

There seem to me to be two main problems:
  • There has been a considerable growth in passenger demand over the last twenty years, and we haven't got anywhere near keeping up with it. On Northern, up until this year, we were still trying to accommodate this on largely the same fleet as twenty years ago. There should have been more ongoing investment over the last twenty years to increase train lengths over time, rather than expecting everything to happen in one go.
  • The cost of infrastructure enhancements. A lot of this stems from the parsimonious demands of previous Governments, incentivising BR to rip tracks up - it costs a hell of a lot more to put that second track back than would have been saved by removing it. Also, the costs of everything such as platform extensions, electrification, signalling etc seems to be very high, meaning that what should be fairly pedestrian enhancements, such as putting in a passing loop, or building a station are very high. We need to go back to WYPTE's example of cost-effective wooden platforms of the 1980's.

I agree the success of the railways is the main problem it's got to overcome.

Part of this is down to the fact that we try and fit too any passengers/train into the space we have before we upgrade the system.
 
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