Clarence Yard
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Most, but not all, of the off peaks will be when they finally get introduced.
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Why are some train lengths so short?
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Most, but not all, of the off peaks will be when they finally get introduced.
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Just returned from Czech Republic and Slovakia where we caught the train from Prague to Brno and Brno to Bratislava the next day.
7 carriages with plenty of leg room even in standard class hauled by newish Skoda electric locos. Okay, so both of these services where actually operating to Budapest, but even shorter distance Inter City services, such as Prague to Pilsen, consist of a loco and 6 or 7 carriages. Then there are the RegioPanter and InterPanter Skoda EMU's with up to 5 carriages.
On returning to Manchester Airport on Thursday evening we got a 3 carriage TPE 185 as far as Man Oxford Road. It was on the York service, we got a seat as it wasn't very busy, and amazingly it was on time!
Then we picked up an EMR service from Oxford Rd, but instead of the usual 2 x 2 carriage 158 it was 1 x 2 carriage 156 that had originated in Norwich and, as you can imagine, was packed with standing room only. Fortunately it emptied out a bit at Warrington Central and we got a seat.
But what a horrible way to end a trip after the luxury of the trains in Czech Republic and Slovakia where the ticket prices are also extremely cheap compared to here in the UK.
And just to rub salt into the wound we arrived into Liverpool South Parkway 8 minutes late and missed our bus connection home!
Don't even get me started on how cheap and efficient the tram and metro system is in Prague compared to anywhere in the UK!
7 carriages with plenty of leg room even in standard class hauled by newish Skoda electric locos. Okay, so both of these services where actually operating to Budapest, but even shorter distance Inter City services, such as Prague to Pilsen, consist of a loco and 6 or 7 carriages. Then there are the RegioPanter and InterPanter Skoda EMU's with up to 5 carriages.
On returning to Manchester Airport on Thursday evening we got a 3 carriage TPE 185 as far as Man Oxford Road. It was on the York service, we got a seat as it wasn't very busy, and amazingly it was on time!
Then we picked up an EMR service from Oxford Rd, but instead of the usual 2 x 2 carriage 158 it was 1 x 2 carriage 156 that had originated in Norwich and, as you can imagine, was packed with standing room only. Fortunately it emptied out a bit at Warrington Central and we got a seat.
But what a horrible way to end a trip after the luxury of the trains in Czech Republic and Slovakia where the ticket prices are also extremely cheap compared to here in the UK.
And just to rub salt into the wound we arrived into Liverpool South Parkway 8 minutes late and missed our bus connection home!
Don't even get me started on how cheap and efficient the tram and metro system is in Prague compared to anywhere in the UK!
HSTEd
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A Class 220 has as many seats as a 3-car Class 170.
The original internal layout was a disaster caused by Virgin originally desiring an airline style three class layout with separate disabled toilets for all three classes.
The same thing caused serious problems for the Pendolino fleet that were only rectified by lengthening from 8 to 9 and then 11 cars.
(That is why the Pendolinos have so many first class carriages).
Just have to scrap the 220/221 trains and start again.
Probably order a fleet of 80x trains, but that would cost quite a bit of money.
The original internal layout was a disaster caused by Virgin originally desiring an airline style three class layout with separate disabled toilets for all three classes.
The same thing caused serious problems for the Pendolino fleet that were only rectified by lengthening from 8 to 9 and then 11 cars.
(That is why the Pendolinos have so many first class carriages).
Just have to scrap the 220/221 trains and start again.
Probably order a fleet of 80x trains, but that would cost quite a bit of money.
Dr Hoo
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Right, so in the context of this thread you travelled on two trains in the UK. One was on time and you easily got a seat. (You were also able to travel by main line rail from the airport, which I don't think was an option when I went to Prague a few years ago - you had to get a bus even to get to the end of the Metro or tram routes.) The second was also planned to be large enough to accommodate the load on offer. (There has been plenty on comments on other threads about the various cascades, modification programmes and new train orders for East Midlands that are in progress, which sometimes cause short forms at the moment.) We also learn that in Czech Republic and Slovakia there are plenty of 5-car regional trains (apparently similar to those being introduced by GWR, LNER, Transpennine, Hull Trains in various EMU, bi-mode or diesel formats dependent on route to be served to supplement various other established 5-car trains/formations operated on other British routes).
It was a pity to learn that the horror of an eight-minute delay and a missed bus ruined your holiday.
Are the routes that you used in the countries that you visited as congested as the Castlefield Corridor?
So much hyperbole with no sources or facts to back it up
R G NOW.
Member
Maybe we should go back to those old compartment trains with eight seats and lights over. I remember these running on the Cardiff to Portsmouth services in 1984. I seem to remember many had 11 coaches and a buffet in the middle.
11 coaches?
The pictures here seem to disagree.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81713-class-33-photos/page/2/
Romsey
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Portsmouth - Cardiff loco hauled services were normally 5 coaches, often 4 coaches and once in a blue moon the booked 6 coaches. The platforms at many stations couldn't take anything longer. Buffet? That was you provided for yourself.
The stock was worn out and the compartment stock was replaced as the woodworm stopped linking arms as the wet rot had spread too far. Even the eth mark 1's which came from ECML stopping trains were worn out when the service changed over to sprinters in 1988. The class 33's were just about worn out but were better than the hand me down class 31's which worked the service from 1977 to 1981.
After 25 years the route has lost the comfortable 158 3 car formations and been saddled with second hand 165's. There may be more seats and longer (occasionally 5 cars) formations but they are less comfortable and less able to recover late running..
hexagon789
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A quick look at the Summer 1984 Western PTM, has all diagrams as booked 5 coaches (with an MTL of 210 tonnes, which would allow strengthening to six while still meeting the timetable). One return pair was supplied by Southern Region stock and was 8 coaches.
None have a buffet car, nor any form of catering vehicle listed.
Seems to have been booked 5 coaches but timetabled for 6 from what I can see.
hexagon789
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Just as well they are limited stop!
Fawkes Cat
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One of the points made in this thread is that XC was planned to operate on a 'little and often' basis and (without suggesting that everyone took their lead from XC) a lot of British TOCs have adopted that approach. So please can you comment on the frequency of the Czech and Slovak trains that you used?
In what way are 166s less able to recover late running than 158s - they have the same power and shorter dwell times?
hexagon789
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delt1c
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How can you compare a 9 coach 47 hauled train to a 4 coach voyager for capacity .lets get real
hexagon789
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Well you can compare a Virgin XC Mk2 rake with a VXC 220 as built
I make it 25 First, 330 Std for the former and 26 First, 162 Std for the latter. But then it's comparing LHCS with a 4-car DMU, an 8-cars 220 lash-up is a more equal direct comparison.
delt1c
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I rest my case. Customer comfort before profitWell you can compare a Virgin XC Mk2 rake with a VXC 220 as built
I make it 25 First, 330 Std for the former and 26 First, 162 Std for the latter. But then it's comparing LHCS with a 4-car DMU, an 8-cars 220 lash-up is a more equal direct comparison.
hexagon789
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Well it was entirely unreasonable to use shorter trains at more frequent intervals in the face of declining passengers as it was improving one feature at least. Unfortunately, as is trotted out all the time as a casebook example - it became a victim of its success. With hindsight VXC would've ordered at least 7-car or a mix of say 5 and 7-or more car trains.
It should definitely be made a requirement of the next XC franchise, more trains, more capacity overall and should be implicitly written into the franchise agreement.
Prague-Pilsen has one fast train per hour, booked alternately 4 or 5 cars, and one semi-fast with 4 cars (but many of them are strengthened by 1-2 cars on Fridays and/or Sundays).
Prague-Ceske Budejovice trains have the same pattern, and the booked basic formation is 5 (this has increased since a couple of years ago).
Prague-Brno hourly expresses are 7, half being Railjets which can't be strengthened.
It is interesting that on the first two routes service frequencies have more or less doubled in 5 years, coinciding with very significant track upgrades; trains formed of relatively modern a/c stock have been cut in length (unlike those formed of older stock) - I suspect this is to make it go round! CZ has also introduced heavily discounted fares for seniors and youths, which have exacerbated the heavy Fri/Sun loadings.
You will notice there is a certain parallel to the way services have developed here, though starting from lower frequencies.
Metal_gee_man
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Didn't the rumour mill start swirling when EMR ordered the new Hitachi class 810 bi-modes and now Avanti West Coast ordered some Hitachi 804s that the voyager 221s and the meridian 222s would be packaged together to provide XC with more carriages or the ability to couple 2 x 4/5 carriage trains together under the correct circumstances
Tetchytyke
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Individually, no, but a 7-coach HST/47/86 (they were never 9 coach) every 1-2 hours was replaced with a 4/5-coach 220/221 every 30-60 minutes. XC was about regular, little and often, rather than the erratic and irregular timetable that Virgin inherited.
It's the same as on TPE. Those who wibble about the 185s tend to gloss over the fact that we now have 5tph express Leeds-Manchester rather than 2tph back in the days of the 47s.
As on XC, we have more capacity now. But a turn-up-and-go service is desirable and so more people use it.
Oh give over, XC before the Voyagers was crap. Knackered 47s and 86s and knackered Mk2Fs.
delt1c
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Rather have seat on a “knackered “ MK2 than stand crushed like a sardine on voyager
CaptainHaddock
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Has anyone mentioned scrapping first class on XC on this thread yet?
delt1c
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Why? It is well used , many use 1st class to get a seat. How many extra seats would standard gain
Grannyjoans
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They felt luxery compared to the 142's on my local branch at the time
So, because the interior isn't great, we should scrap the whole train and start again?
Wouldn't just a proper refurb, basically scrapping the interior, be a quicker, more cost-effective method of improving the stock?
I agree, but the Voyagers are too short and a better interior (with more legroom and tables) would have even fewer seats (or thiner, harder, seats; in which case it wouldn't be a better interior). So I think the best solution is to scrap some driving vehicles (setting aside a small number as spares) and use the intermediate coaches to lengthen other sets while refurbishing all retained vehicles to have more tables, more legroom, and 4 seats per window (to allow alignment). That'd probably be quite a cut in seats on each vehicle, but removing the driving vehicles will improve the average number of seats per vehicle so that the end result is only a small reduction in average seats per vehicle.
Class 33
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Yes, Cross Country services with their short 4 or 5 carriage trains are ridiculous. It's been a few years now since I traveled up to places like Leeds, York and Edinburgh. Destinations where I can get just one direct Cross Country service from Bristol. But knowing how overcrowded and cramped these services are, I instead traveled via Bristol-London Paddington on First Great Western and then a GNER or East Coast(or whatever other operators it was) from London King's Cross, which makes for a far more comfortable and pleasant journey there and back!
HSTEd
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You'd have to gut them to the structural components to get rid of the space wasting equipment in them.
If it was easy, it would have been done by now.
tbtc
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When comparing how long trains were in BR days, it's worth remembering that carriages used to be shorter, closer to the length of a Pacer carriage than the 26m carriages we are now introducing
This is a good point. One packed train here might look bad compared to another country, though the service in another country may be on a significantly lower frequency (e.g. I'm sure a lot of the world would look enviously at four trains per hour from London to Bristol/ three trains per hour from London to Manchester/ two trains per hour from London to Edinburgh).
But we seem to have accepted that the "little and often" approach to trains was somehow an XC invention - I remember the days of BR introducing two coach 150s on an hourly basis to replace (less frequent) loco hauled services. People complaining about 185s being unsuitable to TransPennine services clearly weren't around in the days where 150s crossed the Pennines (I think the route was in the hands of 156s at one stage, before 158s took over).
This seems to have been the trend for around forty years now - maybe it's because it's easier to blame one private company (Virgin) than to accept that it was the railway culture for many years, and that people at the time had no idea of how future travel patterns/demand were going to be (just as, today, people say that we don't need HS2 because passenger numbers won't increase in future because of video conferencing and other technologies - at the time Virgin specified the Voyagers they didn't know how the increase would be - and around the time of Hatfield there was certainly no guarantee)
This is a good point. One packed train here might look bad compared to another country, though the service in another country may be on a significantly lower frequency (e.g. I'm sure a lot of the world would look enviously at four trains per hour from London to Bristol/ three trains per hour from London to Manchester/ two trains per hour from London to Edinburgh).
But we seem to have accepted that the "little and often" approach to trains was somehow an XC invention - I remember the days of BR introducing two coach 150s on an hourly basis to replace (less frequent) loco hauled services. People complaining about 185s being unsuitable to TransPennine services clearly weren't around in the days where 150s crossed the Pennines (I think the route was in the hands of 156s at one stage, before 158s took over).
This seems to have been the trend for around forty years now - maybe it's because it's easier to blame one private company (Virgin) than to accept that it was the railway culture for many years, and that people at the time had no idea of how future travel patterns/demand were going to be (just as, today, people say that we don't need HS2 because passenger numbers won't increase in future because of video conferencing and other technologies - at the time Virgin specified the Voyagers they didn't know how the increase would be - and around the time of Hatfield there was certainly no guarantee)
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