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WCRC to get sleeper contract and ETL for Ac Leg?

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87031

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Heard the rumours about WCRC refurbushing 47s to take over the sleepers and ETL to run the AC legs 86/701/702 86101/87002 anyone know anymore about this as the 92s are not going to be used on the sleepers?
 
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junglejames

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Heard the rumours about WCRC refurbushing 47s to take over the sleepers and ETL to run the AC legs 86/701/702 86101/87002 anyone know anymore about this as the 92s are not going to be used on the sleepers?

Havent heard that. Seems unlikely. Why would 92s be used anyway? Whats wrong with the 90s?
Id say its very very unlikely, but would be good if it was true.

Unless EWS are trying to charge the earth for their locos now.
 

Pumbaa

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Just rumours re WCRC.

92s have been pencilled in to take over Sleeper duties for the best part of a year, no idea when it will actually happen.
 

junglejames

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Just rumours re WCRC.

92s have been pencilled in to take over Sleeper duties for the best part of a year, no idea when it will actually happen.

Why? 90s are perfect for it. Strong enough, brilliant acceleration, and have the speed if needs be. 92s dont even have ETH capabilities do they?
I just cant see why you would replace the 90s on it. Are the 90s needed elsewhere?
 

Failed Unit

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Why? 90s are perfect for it. Strong enough, brilliant acceleration, and have the speed if needs be. 92s dont even have ETH capabilities do they?
I just cant see why you would replace the 90s on it. Are the 90s needed elsewhere?

The 92s have eth from the nightstar plan. They also have enough speed for the booked runs. 80mph is more than enough.
 

mbonwick

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Certain 92s had ETH mods to allow them to be trialled on the sleepers. I believe most are also having mods to allow 90mph running (as opposed to 87.5mph)

90s are terrible - they start slipping & sliding a the very thought of a greasy rail, 92s are far better.
 

313103

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But ain't the 92s the noisiest Electric locos ever built? They are certainly louder when they pass through Willesden then a class 66 on full boar.
 

37401

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But ain't the 92s the noisiest Electric locos ever built? They are certainly louder when they pass through Willesden then a class 66 on full boar.

You say that like its a bad thing :D

Yeah they are a "Modern day roarer" if you like, proper quality sounding locos
 

route:oxford

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Given that DB/EWS have ten 37s up for sale, wouldn't it be a good idea if Transport Scotland were to acquire them for Scotland's Railway?

They'd need a seriously deep refurbish, and I appreciate that not all of those 10 are worthy of more than scrap... Perhaps 7 serviceable?

But once brought up to full spec, rewired for top 'n tail operation with either another 37 or DBSO, and of course reliveried, they'd be a real asset to Scotland's Railway.

So there'd be 3 units always available for the sleepers and 4 spare...

The spare 4?

Snow Plough duties in the winter would be a good idea...

Perhaps a dozen "Chiltern'd" Mark 3 coaches could be acquired too... Perfect for operating an emergency timetable in the winter - and for hiring out between April & September...
 

Flying Snail

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If you want some sleep is, although the Edinburgh portion is always away from the loco. :)

Even in the coach directly behind the loco it is hardly going to be that loud, unless you are trying to nod off while hanging out the droplight.

Besides in my experience the various nioses from within the sleeper coach are much more likely to disturb sleep. There are the bogie noises, aircon systems, compressors, random underfloor equipment and by far the worst you are almost guaranteed to have at least one piece of badly fitting trim inside the cabin happily rattling away inches from your ear. Give me a roaring AC any day over two pieces of cheap metal clicking against each other at 150 bpm.
 

tbtc

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Are the 92's utilised particularly well at the moment?

My understanding was that they were underused. But the same could have been said of 67s a year or two ago, and we'll now not have any 67s spare (if plans go ahead with ATW/ Chiltern etc using them)... maybe we'll soon be talking of "not enough 92s"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given that DB/EWS have ten 37s up for sale, wouldn't it be a good idea if Transport Scotland were to acquire them for Scotland's Railway?

They'd need a seriously deep refurbish, and I appreciate that not all of those 10 are worthy of more than scrap... Perhaps 7 serviceable?

But once brought up to full spec, rewired for top 'n tail operation with either another 37 or DBSO, and of course reliveried, they'd be a real asset to Scotland's Railway.

So there'd be 3 units always available for the sleepers and 4 spare...

The spare 4?

Snow Plough duties in the winter would be a good idea...

Perhaps a dozen "Chiltern'd" Mark 3 coaches could be acquired too... Perfect for operating an emergency timetable in the winter - and for hiring out between April & September...

Special Reserve? :lol:
 

87031

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recently there have been many problems with 90s failing on the sleepers including one recently on Camden bank on 1S25 which had to be towed back to Euston and replaced with a 92. It seems like the 92s are off the agenda now despite being suitable for use on the Sleepers.

It seems 90s are gona be exported abroad so it looks like whatever happens there days on the Sleepers seem numbered. Ive heard from a few people the 67s are also going to be taken off the sleepers due to speed restrictions imposed on the West Highland line and there are 47s at Carnforth already linked to take over. It does seem a bit odd that 90s are not going to continue on the sleepers but Scotrail might be getting fed up with the reliabilty of them since October, 1M11 was also rescued by a 66 in November seen dragged through Rugby. Either way it looks like theres gona be traction changes coming in 2011
 

junglejames

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Ah never realised 92s had ETH capability.
Still, if the sleeper is running late, at least you know the 90 has the extra speed to make up a lot of the time. There is no doubting the 92s would have better grip though. Acceleration wouldnt be there I wouldnt have thought, but thats not much of a problem.
90s failing? Sounds like a case of EWS not looking after them.
Well its a good job I plan to travel on the sleeper 5 times in 2 weeks next March!!
If this 47 rumour comes about, you wont keep me off of them. They are already the best train we have in the UK. Amazing fun.
 

4SRKT

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As WCRC have 37s as well, wouldn't it be better to put one of these on the FW leg (if they've any 4s that is). Please.....??
 

mumrar

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There is no doubting the 92s would have better grip though. Acceleration wouldnt be there I wouldnt have thought
Are you mad? I've seen 92s on loaded intermodals and they can take off similar to a Class 321 in terms of acceleration. I'd go so far as to say, up to 50/60mph they're probably the best accelerating locomotive in the UK.
If this 47 rumour comes about, you wont keep me off of them. They are already the best train we have in the UK.
Behave yourself, I know you're saying this as an enthusiast, but you can't really believe that statement can you? 509 built and how many left running? They are very useful no doubt, like the Class 37s, but they were built as mixed traffic, which is a concept our short, frequent passenger trains and heavy long freights have killed the need for. They may be capable, but the trains they were built to haul don't really exist anymore barring charters.
 

junglejames

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Are you mad? I've seen 92s on loaded intermodals and they can take off similar to a Class 321 in terms of acceleration. I'd go so far as to say, up to 50/60mph they're probably the best accelerating locomotive in the UK.

Behave yourself, I know you're saying this as an enthusiast, but you can't really believe that statement can you? 509 built and how many left running? They are very useful no doubt, like the Class 37s, but they were built as mixed traffic, which is a concept our short, frequent passenger trains and heavy long freights have killed the need for. They may be capable, but the trains they were built to haul don't really exist anymore barring charters.

Up to 50/60 yes, as they have better tractive effort than the 90s. But what about up to 80/90? I stand corrected if im wrong, but id have thought 90s would be better to this speed. Then again, the weight of the sleeper train, and the grip of the 92s, I could very much be wrong. The fact its such a heavy train probably tips it in the favour of the 92.

As for my comment about the best train we have. I did mention best train, not best loco. I was on about the actual sleeper train itself.

As for locos, well i dont know, its difficult to say what our best loco is.
Electric wise, it has to be the 90s. Diesel wise, I dont know. 47s have their limitations now because they werent designed for trains wanting so much ETH power. 67s are reliable, but are badly designed.
To be honest, 47s probably arent far off our best locos still, but perhaps not quite. If you want the best diesel loco we have ever built, then 47s win hands down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you mad? I've seen 92s on loaded intermodals and they can take off similar to a Class 321 in terms of acceleration. I'd go so far as to say, up to 50/60mph they're probably the best accelerating locomotive in the UK.

Behave yourself, I know you're saying this as an enthusiast, but you can't really believe that statement can you? 509 built and how many left running? They are very useful no doubt, like the Class 37s, but they were built as mixed traffic, which is a concept our short, frequent passenger trains and heavy long freights have killed the need for. They may be capable, but the trains they were built to haul don't really exist anymore barring charters.

Oh, and 512 were built. Brush Traction at their finest!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As WCRC have 37s as well, wouldn't it be better to put one of these on the FW leg (if they've any 4s that is). Please.....??

EWS have the best 37.
Whats her name that used to be in the Marron livery.

But nah, 47s please.
 

4SRKT

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EWS have the best 37.
Whats her name that used to be in the Marron livery.

But nah, 47s please.

How times have changed! 'Twas once the case that anyone who made such a statement could reliably have expected to be ridiculed for evermore. Now people seem to feel no shame in putting it up on a talk forum for all to see.

Duff bashers back in the closet please! ;)
 

junglejames

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How times have changed! 'Twas once the case that anyone who made such a statement could reliably have expected to be ridiculed for evermore. Now people seem to feel no shame in putting it up on a talk forum for all to see.

Duff bashers back in the closet please! ;)

Sorry, what bashers? I refuse to call anything decent by a derogatory name. They are 47s.
Oh, and I dont go round bashing them either. Last time i checked, bashing was a form of hitting. You make me sound like someone that goes up to Carnforth with a baseball bat and lets rip with it smashing all the 47s to pieces.

I like 37s. Brilliant locos, but for me its 47s anyday of the week. The day I come out and say I like pendos, is the day you can ridicule me. Until then, beware.

So just for the record. 47s are the greatest locomotive the world has ever seen. Followed by the 87s and 90s!
Long Live 57301. AKA 47845, County Of Kent.
 

tbtc

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Sorry, what bashers? I refuse to call anything decent by a derogatory name. They are 47s.
Oh, and I dont go round bashing them either. Last time i checked, bashing was a form of hitting. You make me sound like someone that goes up to Carnforth with a baseball bat and lets rip with it smashing all the 47s to pieces.

I like 37s. Brilliant locos, but for me its 47s anyday of the week. The day I come out and say I like pendos, is the day you can ridicule me. Until then, beware.

So just for the record. 47s are the greatest locomotive the world has ever seen. Followed by the 87s and 90s!
Long Live 57301. AKA 47845, County Of Kent.

If there had been forums like this in the 1960s they'd be full of praise for steam, and not these flimsy diesels.

In thirty years time (if forums like this still exist) there'll be praise for the wonderful 390s that we all grew up with ("they don't make them like that anymore..."). Things change each generation.

I do think that the great love enthusiasts have for 90s has a lot to do with the fact they were withdrawn from WCML duties at such a young age, rather than anything specific to the engines. If they were still in service on so many duties (I appreciate they run on the GEML) then the story may be different...
 

junglejames

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If there had been forums like this in the 1960s they'd be full of praise for steam, and not these flimsy diesels.

In thirty years time (if forums like this still exist) there'll be praise for the wonderful 390s that we all grew up with ("they don't make them like that anymore..."). Things change each generation.

I do think that the great love enthusiasts have for 90s has a lot to do with the fact they were withdrawn from WCML duties at such a young age, rather than anything specific to the engines. If they were still in service on so many duties (I appreciate they run on the GEML) then the story may be different...

Nope, not at all. The 90s being hard done by is totally different to reasons for liking them.
I liked 90s whilst they were still hard at work on the WCML.
To put it simply. I only like the best, and i hate the worst. Thats why i love 90s and hate pendos! 90s are the best electric locos ever built. Thats why they are so liked. Add in the fact they are probably the best looking locos ever built.
To be honest, they are possibly better off on the GEML. Norwich is a lovely place, and well worthy of them. The only places on the WCML that are fully deserving of 90s are Crewe, Lancaster and Hest Bank. Oh, and perhaps Preston.
 

rail-britain

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I would be surprised if a company like WCRC would offer this, unless they were reducing the requirements on their charter fleet
More likely would be the likes of DRS supplying locos

However, the main issue is finding a suitable loco for between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Euston, as well as enough of them
At the moment only the Class 90 and 92 would meet this
It would be possible to swap over to another loco, like the Class 47, but this would no doubt affect the journey time, and yet again see diesel locos under the wires

There are some issues with the Class 90, but nothing has changed with that since the 1990s
British Rails solution was to swap back to Class 87 locos during the winter
 

junglejames

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If there had been forums like this in the 1960s they'd be full of praise for steam, and not these flimsy diesels.

In thirty years time (if forums like this still exist) there'll be praise for the wonderful 390s that we all grew up with ("they don't make them like that anymore..."). Things change each generation.

I do think that the great love enthusiasts have for 90s has a lot to do with the fact they were withdrawn from WCML duties at such a young age, rather than anything specific to the engines. If they were still in service on so many duties (I appreciate they run on the GEML) then the story may be different...


Oh, and at long last, somebody speaks the truth. "They dont build them like that anymore". No, they'll be building them better!! They were a one off woeful design!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be surprised if a company like WCRC would offer this, unless they were reducing the requirements on their charter fleet
More likely would be the likes of DRS supplying locos

However, the main issue is finding a suitable loco for between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Euston, as well as enough of them
At the moment only the Class 90 and 92 would meet this
It would be possible to swap over to another loco, like the Class 47, but this would no doubt affect the journey time, and yet again see diesel locos under the wires

There are some issues with the Class 90, but nothing has changed with that since the 1990s
British Rails solution was to swap back to Class 87 locos during the winter

So its all sorted. A mixture of 87s and 90s under the wires, and 47s north of Edinburgh. Sounds good to me.
 

Aictos

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Are you mad? I've seen 92s on loaded intermodals and they can take off similar to a Class 321 in terms of acceleration. I'd go so far as to say, up to 50/60mph they're probably the best accelerating locomotive in the UK.

Behave yourself, I know you're saying this as an enthusiast, but you can't really believe that statement can you? 509 built and how many left running? They are very useful no doubt, like the Class 37s, but they were built as mixed traffic, which is a concept our short, frequent passenger trains and heavy long freights have killed the need for. They may be capable, but the trains they were built to haul don't really exist anymore barring charters.

I can't comment on 92s but the 91s when running light engine beat any loco hands down especially when it's full power from a standing start, wow!
 

junglejames

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I can't comment on 92s but the 91s when running light engine beat any loco hands down especially when it's full power from a standing start, wow!

You sure. Think 90s are better up to 100. 91s are quite a bit slower off the mark than 90s are. Thats why they were able to put 90s on the Leeds jobs, and they kept to time still.
 

313103

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I liked 90s whilst they were still hard at work on the WCML.
To put it simply. I only like the best, and i hate the worst. Thats why i love 90s and hate pendos! 90s are the best electric locos ever built. Thats why they are so liked. Add in the fact they are probably the best looking locos ever built.
To be honest, they are possibly better off on the GEML. Norwich is a lovely place, and well worthy of them. The only places on the WCML that are fully deserving of 90s are Crewe, Lancaster and Hest Bank. Oh, and perhaps Preston.

You have given a somewhat plausable statement as to the reason why the 90s are best, so what about something plausable as to the reason why the 'Pendos' (your words) are the worst? As you have comapared them side by side. What is it based on tractive effort, reliability?

You see i have nothing to compare In my rose tinted eyes a class 45 were far better and more reliable then a 47 any day. A class 115 was better then a class 117, and to bring it right upto date a class 313 was better then a 378 especially in this weather when the 378s only like an ambient temperature to work (something the UK doesnt get) in not to cold, not to hot, not to wet and not to dry. Of course the reason why a 313 was better then a 378 is because of all this computer nonsense that modern trains get Oh PIS isnt working computer will say NO! i can go on and on and on and on.
 
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