Trivia: What's the longest possible journey a train could make between two UK stations without reversing?

London Trains said:

I havent figured out how this could fit into the routing, but a route around Liverpool could add a fair few miles:

Crewe - Wilmslow - Styal - Manchester Piccadilly - Trafford Park - Warrington Central - Hunts Cross - Liverpool Central - Birkdale - Meols Cop - Burscough Bridge - Wigan Wallgate

Then you can go towards Hindley or down the WCML.

Click to expand...

Peterthegreat said:

I am not sure the line avoiding Crewe station from the Chester line is still in situ so you would need to go through Crewe station.

Click to expand...

Peterthegreat said:

How do you get from Birkdale to Meols Cop without reversing at Southport? The avoiding line was severed years ago.

Click to expand...

seagull said:

Once it's all figured out: who wants to organise the railtour to do it?

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

Ahh. Well, the difference between that and via Waverley isn't long, and in any case I think as a one-off for this theoretical thread, it might be possible...


That's excellent! Thank you. Definitely via Pontefract, and I'm unsure as to whether Gascoigne Wood and Garforth is longer than Askern and Leeds; my hunch is that it is...


I'm not sure, but I think it may well be via Bristol Parkway. Excellent spot! Thank you

This is the new routing:



Can that be improved?

Click to expand...

Watershed said:

It could be formed of a class 769/9

Click to expand...

Pigeon said:

Oh this bloody forum. I've spent 12 hours diddling on this and drawing out routes on top of NARA and writing out the results. It was really really long and all. Then when I click "post reply" the stupid thing throws a wobbly and loses the whole bloody lot. Fills me with the urge to defecate, it really does.

So here we go again: a tangled mix of other people's suggestions and my own chopping of it about. It's probably best to regard this as a fork of the original project beginning from post 15, because I've been too involved with working stuff out to read what was going on at the same time, and I didn't expect so much to have happened either. And I haven't looked at Scotland because NARA doesn't go north of York. Junctions/curves of whose existence I was dubious have been checked using streetmap dot co dot uk OS 1:25000 maps, which usually seem to be pretty up to date.

THE SOUTH WEST: Penzance, Taunton, Westbury, Reading, Guildford, Southampton, Bath, Severn Tunnel
WELSH LEEKAGE: Newport, Cardiff, Barry, Bridgend, Swansea district, Central Wales, Shrewsbury, Wrexham, Birkenhead, Liverpool loop
CHESHIRE AN' STUFF: Chester, Northwich, Sandbach, Crewe avoider, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Stour Valley, Birmingham New Street
BRUMMY LOOP: Camp Hill, Lickey, Cheltenham, Swindon, Didcot west curve, Oxford, Evesham, Worcester, Kiddy, Birmingham Snow Hill
GW FROM THE NORTH: Solihull, Leamington, Banbury, Wycombe, Greenford, Ealing, Acton
THE MIDLAND: Dudding Hill line, MML, Kettering, Manton, Syston, Trent
COAL WOZ ERE: Trent avoider, Earwash route, Pinxton, Kirkby in Ashfield, Shireoaks, South Yorks Joint, Doncaster, Selby
AND BACK DOWN AGAIN: Hambleton, Pontefract, Swinton, Rotherham, Beighton, Chesterfield, Derby, Trent, Nottingham, Newark
THIS BIT IS INCREDIBLY BORING: Lincoln, Sleaford, Spalding, Peterborough, ECML, Hertford loop, Thameslink tunnel
ATTACK OF THE MUTANT SQUIRRELS: South London squirrel's nest, Tonbridge, Ashford, Dover, Ramsgate, Strood, Ebbsfleet
EAST ANGLIAN CIRCUIT: Barking, Tottenham, Cheshunt, Cambridge, Ipswich, Chelmsford, Stratford, NLL
L&B: Willesden, WCML, Northampton, Coventry, Stechford, Perry Barr
CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE I'M GOING: Walsall, Sutton Park line, Nuneaton, nearly Leicester, Coalville, Burton, Lichfield
HILLS OF THE NORTH REJOICE: Rugeley, Stoke, Crewe, WCML, Carnforth, Cumbrian coast, S&C
HILLS OF THE NOT SO FAR NORTH ARE A BIT YUCK: Hellifield, Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Vic, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge
HILLS OF EVEN LESS FAR NORTH GET QUITE NICE AGAIN: Huddersfield, Standedge, Stalybridge, Stockport, Hazel Grove, Whaley Bridge, Peak Forest loop, Chinley, Edale, Sheffield
MORE NOT COAL AGAIN: Barnsley, Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton, Leeds, Church Fenton, York
ONWARD: To Scotland

NARA doesn't go any further north than York, so neither have I.

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

According to the satellite map on Google Maps - which is constantly updated - it's still there.


I think it's still extant but only provides access to the Northern Line in the southbound direction - there's no crossover north of Birkdale. So you'd have to do it in reverse unless we wanted a significant amount of wrong way running. Which is permitted, but I'd rather not if at all possible.

Click to expand...

Peterthegreat said:

If you look at the satellite image it is clearly NOT connected.

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

The outermost track isn't, but the innermost definitely is.

Click to expand...

Railsigns said:

The innermost track connects into another siding, but there is no connection from that siding onto the main line (neither Up nor Down) towards Meols Cop. The longest journey cannot go via Southport without reversing.

Click to expand...

D821 said:

Sorry for sidetracking the thread - but what us your user avatar a picture of? I've always wondered what those plates were for by platforms.

Click to expand...

waverley47 said:

Followed by... York, Northallerton, Sunderland, Newcastle, Carlisle, Carstairs, Slateford, Round the Sub, Edinburgh, Airdrie, Queen Street low level, Anniesland, Maryhill, Springburn, Steppe, Gartcosch, Cumbernauld, Falkirk Grahamston, Polmont, Dalmeny, Dunfermline, Ladybank, Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness avoider, Wick.

Click to expand...

Railsigns said:

The innermost track connects into another siding, but there is no connection from that siding onto the main line (neither Up nor Down) towards Meols Cop. The longest journey cannot go via Southport without reversing.

Click to expand...

Lloyds siding said:

Correct.
Sorry Backontrack this area is a bit of a Bermuda triangle for your plans!

This Youtube video of a cab ride on an Open Golf special shows that both lines of the south curve are blocked by buffers. 30:42

Click to expand...

oddiesjack said:

i don't think its possible to access the Midland line towards Peak Forest directly from the "wessie" line through Whaley Bridge at Buxton, you can only take the Hindlow branch off the "wessie" .

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

That's bloody exceptional. All of this is absolutely the toppest of notches. You've even worked in some things that I couldn't - like Coalville and Greenford.

Might need to iron out a couple of wrinkles. You can't go through Hamilton Square twice, and you also can't use the south throat at Crewe twice. Hmm.

The only way you can get through Crewe twice is by doing Chester then using the avoiding towards Stafford, then later on doing from Stoke into Crewe then northbound. In that respect, I think you're OK with Shrewsbury - Chester - Crewe - Stafford. It's the stretch from Sandbach to Crewe that stuffs it up, so the Northwich detour is dropped.

I've been looking at a route that allows you to go through Liverpool - sadly, you can't do both that AND go through Crewe twice. You can get down from the Liverpool Loop to Central, but at Garston there's no connection onto the WCML - so you go via Birchwood and Styal. I thought I had a route that would get you on the right track - there to Wilmslow, Middlewich, Northwich and Chester - but sadly you'd have to reverse at Chester.

Still, no bother - just run Shrewsbury - Chester - Crewe - Stafford. It's an excellent routing, otherwise!

Click to expand...

Pigeon said:

I thought I remembered seeing the necessary pointwork in place on one of Don Coffey's videos when he's reversing to go from Hindlow to Peak Forest. I could have remembered wrong though - have to watch it again. Doesn't affect anything to excise that diversion, but it is a bit of a shame because it's quite a long way round!

[Edit:] Yes, you're quite right, have to snip that bit. However, this might compensatingly facilitate some interesting alternative squirrelage.



Thank you!

Hamilton Square I included because someone else had proposed it and it hadn't been objected to at the time. OK, we can can that bit and go direct from Wrexham to Chester without affecting anything else.

I don't see the difficulty with Crewe from looking at the OS 1:25000 map. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map/idld...d&searchp=ids&dn=541&ax=371292&ay=354041&lm=0 corresponds with my memory of a cab ride video over the route, and indicates that you can approach on the Manchester line from Sandbach, go through the diveunder, along the avoiders behind the west side of the station, and through Basford Hall yard, to rejoin the main line south towards Stafford at Basford Hall junction a couple of km or so to the south of the station itself. Then on the second pass you're approaching on the line from Stoke which joins the main line only about 500m south of the station, heading north through the platforms and straight on towards Warrington. So you're well clear of using any of the main line twice over, by over a km, and I don't see where the conflict comes in?

[Added:] Eh, eh, eh... Apparently the connecting tunnel between the Mersey tunnel and the line into Liverpool Central still exists, and is used for rolling stock transfers.

So I ought to be able to change the route to go Wrexham - Bidston - Mersey tunnel - Liverpool Central - Warrington Central - Manchester Pic - Styal - Sandbach, at least, unless I can think of a more interesting way to use it.

Click to expand...

XAM2175 said:

It's a Datum Plate; figure 7 here - https://www.railsigns.uk/info/other1.html

Click to expand...

Mystic Force said:

If you are starting at Penzance I would have thought your target end point would be Exeter, as that is the closest end point you can get to the start by an alternative route, Unless finishing way up in Scotland if preferable.

Click to expand...

Pigeon said:

I thought I remembered seeing the necessary pointwork in place on one of Don Coffey's videos when he's reversing to go from Hindlow to Peak Forest. I could have remembered wrong though - have to watch it again. Doesn't affect anything to excise that diversion, but it is a bit of a shame because it's quite a long way round!

[Edit:] Yes, you're quite right, have to snip that bit. However, this might compensatingly facilitate some interesting alternative squirrelage.



Thank you!

Hamilton Square I included because someone else had proposed it and it hadn't been objected to at the time. OK, we can can that bit and go direct from Wrexham to Chester without affecting anything else.

I don't see the difficulty with Crewe from looking at the OS 1:25000 map. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map/idld...d&searchp=ids&dn=541&ax=371292&ay=354041&lm=0 corresponds with my memory of a cab ride video over the route, and indicates that you can approach on the Manchester line from Sandbach, go through the diveunder, along the avoiders behind the west side of the station, and through Basford Hall yard, to rejoin the main line south towards Stafford at Basford Hall junction a couple of km or so to the south of the station itself. Then on the second pass you're approaching on the line from Stoke which joins the main line only about 500m south of the station, heading north through the platforms and straight on towards Warrington. So you're well clear of using any of the main line twice over, by over a km, and I don't see where the conflict comes in?

[Added:] Eh, eh, eh... Apparently the connecting tunnel between the Mersey tunnel and the line into Liverpool Central still exists, and is used for rolling stock transfers.

So I ought to be able to change the route to go Wrexham - Bidston - Mersey tunnel - Liverpool Central - Warrington Central - Manchester Pic - Styal - Sandbach, at least, unless I can think of a more interesting way to use it.

Click to expand...

Peterthegreat said:

But you do Sandbach to Styal in part 4.

Click to expand...

rapmastaj said:

Instead of Westbury - Chippenham - Swindon you could do Westbury - Lawrence Hill - Avonmouth - Bristol Parkway - Swindon. But you'd have to change the Kidderminster - Newport section back to going via Hereford, to avoid running through Bristol Parkway twice, so I don't know if this route is longer overall.

Click to expand...

PART ONE
Penzance to Birmingham
Penzance - Plymouth - Exeter - Taunton - Frome - (avoiding Westbury) - Reading - Wokingham - Ascot - Staines - Feltham - Richmond - Gunnersbury - Acton Central - Clapham Junction - Gatwick Airport - Preston Park - Hove - Havant - Southampton - Salisbury - Westbury - Lawrence Hill - Avonmouth - Bristol Parkway - Swindon - Oxford - Leamington Spa - Birmingham Snow Hill - Kidderminster - Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford - Newport - Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend - Briton Ferry - Pontarddulais - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Bidston - Hamilton Square - Liverpool Central - Hunts Cross - Warrington Central - Manchester Piccadilly - Styal - Sandbach - (Basford Hall) - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Birmingham New Street

PART TWO
Birmingham to London St Pancras
Birmingham New Street - Water Orton - Tamworth (HL) - Burton - (Castle Donington) - Ilkeston - Chesterfield - (Killamarsh) - Swinton - Doncaster - (Selby south curve) - (Hambleton) - (Gascoigne Wood) - Pontefract Monkhill - Wakefield Kirkgate - Mirfield - Hebden Bridge - Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Ashton - (Droylsden) - Denton - Stockport - Chinley - Sheffield - Darnall - Shirebrook - Nottingham - Newark Castle - Lincoln - Sleaford - Peterborough - Hitchin - Hertford North - Finsbury Park - London St Pancras.

PART THREE
London St Pancras to Cambridge
London St Pancras - City Thameslink - Blackfriars - London Bridge - New Cross - Anerley - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon - Streatham - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham - Abbey Wood - Slade's Green - Crayford - Sidcup - Lee - Grove Park - Chislehurst - Swanley - Otford - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Ashford International - Dover Priory - Margate - Whitstable - Chatham - Rochester - Ebbsfleet International - Barking - South Tottenham - Harlow Town - Audley End - Cambridge.

PART FOUR
Cambridge to York
Cambridge - Bury St Edmunds - Ipswich - Colchester - Chelmsford - Stratford - Willesden Jn - Watford Jn - Bletchley - Bedford - Kettering - Corby - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Tamworth (LL) - Rugeley Trent Valley - Stoke - Crewe - Warrington Bank Quay - Wigan North Western - Preston - Lancaster - Carnforth - Ulverston - Barrow-in-Furness - Workington - Dalston - Armathwaite - Settle - Skipton - Shipley - Leeds - Garforth - Church Fenton - York.

PART FIVE
York to Wick
York - Northallerton - Eaglescliffe - Hartlepool - Sunderland - (King Edward Bridge) - Newcastle - Dunbar - (Edinburgh South Suburban) - Slateford - Carstairs - Wishaw - Holytown - Motherwell - Hamilton Central - Newton - Rutherglen - Glasgow Central (Low Level) - Anniesland - Maryhill - Lenzie - Falkirk Grahamston - Linlithgow - Dalmeny - Cowdenbeath - Markinch - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen - Nairn - (Rose Street Curve) - Beauly - Dingwall - Tain - Lairg - Brora - Helmsdale - Georgemas Jn - Wick.

Click to expand...

rapmastaj said:

This post made me wonder whether the longest route might actually involve starting in Wick, heading south as far as Exeter St David's, then looping back north to eventually end the journey at Inverness. This would mean missing out on Exeter - Penzance, but in return you would be able to include sections like Exeter - Salisbury and Stirling - Perth - Inverness. Of course, working out how to redo the route in this way would be a mammoth job!

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

Ah, I forgot about the diveunder! Well that's splendid then (I love your use of the phrase 'squirrelage'.)


We can just biff straight up the WCML from Crewe! No bother.


I think that's longer, so congratulations!

This is the present state of affairs:

How can that be improved? (Is via Pinxton and Shirebrook northbound and via Killamarsh southbound, as @Pigeon used, a better route? Hmm...)


I think you might be right! I had considered a starting and ending point at Fishguard and Holyhead but this is much better - because Perth-Inverness is slightly longer than Penzance-Exeter. I'll begin constructing an alternate route (and anyone who wants to join me in that is free to, of course).

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

Ah, I forgot about the diveunder! Well that's splendid then (I love your use of the phrase 'squirrelage'.)


We can just biff straight up the WCML from Crewe! No bother.


I think that's longer, so congratulations!

This is the present state of affairs:

How can that be improved? (Is via Pinxton and Shirebrook northbound and via Killamarsh southbound, as @Pigeon used, a better route? Hmm...)


I think you might be right! I had considered a starting and ending point at Fishguard and Holyhead but this is much better - because Perth-Inverness is slightly longer than Penzance-Exeter. I'll begin constructing an alternate route (and anyone who wants to join me in that is free to, of course).

Click to expand...

rapmastaj said:

Instead of Westbury - Chippenham - Swindon you could do Westbury - Lawrence Hill - Avonmouth - Bristol Parkway - Swindon. But you'd have to change the Kidderminster - Newport section back to going via Hereford, to avoid running through Bristol Parkway twice, so I don't know if this route is longer overall.


This post made me wonder whether the longest route might actually involve starting in Wick, heading south as far as Exeter St David's, then looping back north to eventually end the journey at Inverness. This would mean missing out on Exeter - Penzance, but in return you would be able to include sections like Exeter - Salisbury and Stirling - Perth - Inverness. Of course, working out how to redo the route in this way would be a mammoth job!

Click to expand...

rapmastaj said:

On second thoughts, a Wick to Inverness route probably wouldn't work, because the need to head back north (or south) on the west coast main line would mean you wouldn't be able to do a loop on the Cumbrian coast and settle and Carlisle lines

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

Alas, I've run into that same problem.

Click to expand...

rapmastaj said:

But you could keep the Cumbrian coast line as part of a west coast route northwards, followed by Dumfries and Kilmarnock.

Click to expand...

backontrack said:

Yes, that's excellent. An alternate routing could be: City Thameslink - London Bridge - New Cross - Anerley - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon - Streatham - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Click to expand...

Deepgreen said:

All good fun, but you try finding a driver who signs this!

Click to expand...