Group Stations

glynn80 · 17 Apr 2011

clagmonster said:
Where is it documented that "the shortest distance can be taken to mean by train only"? The Routeing Guide does state that distances should be calculated using the National Rail Timetable, but then inter-station walking distances are included in said document, as well as distances if travelling by train.

I'm sorry clagmonster but because you have mentioned these distances so many times in this thread, I felt I had to check the wording that is located within the NRT. When I checked, I found no mention of any walking distances between any of the Bradford Stations??

The list I found was as follows:

NRT said:
Ash Vale – North Camp
Bicester North – Town
Burnley Central – Manchester Rd
Burscough Bridge – Junction
Canterbury East – West
Catford – Bridge
Clock House – Kent House
Dorchester South – West
Dorking – Deepdene
East Croydon – West Croydon
Edenbridge – Town
Enfield Chase – Town
Falkirk High – Grahamston
Farnborough Main – North
Forest Gate – Wanstead Park
Gainsborough Central – Lea Rd
Hackney Central – Downs
Harringay – Green Lanes
Heath High Level – Low Level
Hertford North – East
Maidstone Barracks – East
New Mills Central – Newtown
Penge East – West
Purley Oaks – Sanderstead
Seven Sisters – South Tottenham
Southend Central – Victoria
Upper Warlingham – Whyteleafe
Walthamstow Central – Queen's Rd
West Hampstead – Thameslink
Windsor & Eton Central – Riverside
Yeovil Junction – Pen Mill

RailUK Forums

sheff1 · 17 Apr 2011

kwvr45 said:
No I'm sorry, that is completely absurd. In the examples I quoted it is completely absurd to suggest that a £1.10 Single from Bradford to Frizinghall which is one stop and about 4 minutes out of Bradford Forster Square is valid to travel from Bradford Interchange via Leeds and Shipley. The Wigan to Bolton examples are also clearly bonkers as well. No, my view remains that you should travel only via a direct route if one exists.

With all due respect, it is not your view which is relevant but what the National Routeing Guide says. NRCoC Condition 13 is clear that you can travel by any route shown in the NRG.

junglejames · 17 Apr 2011

glynn80 said:
I'm sorry clagmonster but because you have mentioned these distances so many times in this thread, I felt I had to check the wording that is located within the NRT. When I checked, I found no mention of any walking distances between any of the Bradford Stations??

The list I found was as follows:

But none of this matters because the ticket says your not travelling from Forster Sq. The ticket says you are travelling from Bradford Stations.

The routeing guide also states that the extended availability afforded with the grouping of stations (ie coming in and out of any stations you like), is no longer valid if the group of stations are the arrival or departure stations.

Therefore leaving from any station you like is no longer an option. So you have to go from the station which is on the valid route from Bradford now.

OK, the routeing guide does not say exactly what i have said in my last 2 sentences, but it is obvious that this is what its getting at.

yorkie · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
The routeing guide also states that the extended availability afforded with the grouping of stations (ie coming in and out of any stations you like), is no longer valid if the group of stations are the arrival or departure stations.

That's not relevant to this debate. The 'extended availability' refers to the ability to double-back within a group of stations. You are right, that double-backing is not allowed if the arrival or departure station is a member of the group (e.g. Micklefield-York isn't valid via Leeds, but Hull-York is valid via Leeds), however that's a completely separate matter to the subject at hand. And, to further complicate things, the Station Groups (referred to in this thread) are not (necessarily) the same as Routeing Groups (referred to in your quote).

glynn80 · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
But none of this matters because the ticket says your not travelling from Forster Sq. The ticket says you are travelling from Bradford Stations.

Well I'm sorry but it does matter to the school of thought, that is arguing that when you buy a ticket from an "XXX Stations" origin, you are permitted to depart from whichever station in the group you wish.

And the shortest route from FS to New Pudsey we can now say is conclusively via Leeds.

sheff1 · 17 Apr 2011

hairyhandedfool said:
I think this thread is going nowhere fast. The Routeing Guide instructions state that where the origin and destination share a common Routeing Point it only allows direct trains and the shortest route from origin to destination. Routeing Point Groups are irrelevant.

The only direct trains go from Bradford Interchange.
The shortest route from Bradford Stns to New Pudsey is via Bradford Interchange.

But my origin is Forster Square and the Routeing Guide confirms I can travel via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates i.e via Leeds. There is no regular scheduled passenger train service through the streets of central Bradford.

clagmonster · 17 Apr 2011

glynn80 said:
I'm sorry clagmonster but because you have mentioned these distances so many times in this thread, I felt I had to check the wording that is located within the NRT. When I checked, I found no mention of any walking distances between any of the Bradford Stations??

The list I found was as follows:

Oops, it seems they've been removed from the NRT. There used to be the list you mention and two pages of maps, which included Bradford. These maps still exist on the NRES website but not the NRT. The list you quote doesn't give distances, just transfer times. In that case, I concde the point, the shortest route shown in the NRT is from Forster Square via Leeds.

For me the question is simply, for the purpose of computing the shortest route, where we have an origin of Bradford Stations, are we to take the shortest route from any Bradford Station or can we choose whichever suits us. I believe the former is the intended meaning, but the answer isn't documented anywhere.

junglejames · 17 Apr 2011

yorkie said:
That's not relevant to this debate. The 'extended availability' refers to the ability to double-back within a group of stations. You are right, that double-backing is not allowed if the arrival or departure station is a member of the group (e.g. Micklefield-York isn't valid via Leeds, but Hull-York is valid via Leeds), however that's a completely separate matter to the subject at hand. And, to further complicate things, the Station Groups (referred to in this thread) are not (necessarily) the same as Routeing Groups (referred to in your quote).

But the extended availabilty also applies to using any station within the group that you like. Its not just about doubling back. Its more than that. The rule clearly states you can use any station you like, and give yourself a wider range of station facilities.

So this rule clearly does apply in this case.
The extended availability has been taken away, so you no longer have that choice of stations either.

island · 17 Apr 2011

Common sense says you should travel from BDI.

This has absolutely zero bearing on what is actually correct, because common sense and the routeing guide are rarely compatible.

Back in the days of "ANY REASONABLE" route, this would never have got beyond ten posts, because making the journey from BDQ would be manifestly unreasonable!

clagmonster · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
The routeing guide also states that the extended availability afforded with the grouping of stations (ie coming in and out of any stations you like), is no longer valid if the group of stations are the arrival or departure stations.

Therefore leaving from any station you like is no longer an option. So you have to go from the station which is on the valid route from Bradford now.

The origin is not Bradford Group, it is Bradford Stations. The group stations rule is not really relevent here, because as you say it is used when the origin or destination is not in the group. There are cases where the two are different, for example Salford Crescent and Central appear in Manchester Group but not in Manchester Stations.

junglejames · 17 Apr 2011

glynn80 said:
Well I'm sorry but it does matter to the school of thought, that is arguing that when you buy a ticket from an "XXX Stations" origin, you are permitted to depart from whichever station in the group you wish.

And the shortest route from FS to New Pudsey we can now say is conclusively via Leeds.

Now quote my whole post. The part which says that the routeing guide clearly disallows the departure or arrival from any station you so desire. It clearly says this extended availability is not allowed. So you cant use whichever station you like.

yorkie · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
Now quote my whole post. The part which says that the routeing guide clearly disallows the departure or arrival from any station you so desire. It clearly says this extended availability is not allowed. So you cant use whichever station you like.

Where does it say that?

sheff1 · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
But none of this matters because the ticket says your not travelling from Forster Sq. The ticket says you are travelling from Bradford Stations. .

If I am standing at Forster Sq and buy my ticket there, that is where I am travelling from.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

island said:
Back in the days of "ANY REASONABLE" route, this would never have got beyond ten posts, because making the journey from BDQ would be manifestly unreasonable!

Exactly. But, of course, reasonableness was superseded by the NRG.

glynn80 · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
Now quote my whole post. The part which says that the routeing guide clearly disallows the departure or arrival from any station you so desire. It clearly says this extended availability is not allowed. So you cant use whichever station you like.

I haven't read into the semantics of extended availability recently but what I can say with confidence is that when two stations share the same routeing point (in this case Bradford), there is no need to even contemplate going as far into the NRG as you have here, as the only services that are valid are:

a) By the shortest route (+3 miles)
b) By a direct train

So you maybe correct and there maybe some clause in the NRG that does prohibit choosing to depart from any station you desire, but that clause does not apply to the BDQ to NPD example.

In future when mentioning things like rules within the NRG and conversations you had with people like Barry Doe, it would be extremely helpful to the debate if you could include quotations of exactly what you are referring to.

yorkie · 17 Apr 2011

It's relatively simple to resolve these problems, all NT need to do is offer Rte "Not Leeds" and Rte "Any Permitted" or Rte "Leeds", for example from Pontefract Stations to York, there is an Any Permitted (£15.00 SDR / £11.80 CDR) which is valid from Monkhill for journeys via Leeds, and a Not Leeds, which is £9.80.

junglejames · 17 Apr 2011

Right, having clarified what 'Group Stations' means, it seems as though i was looking at it as meaning different than it does. In which case it would seem to play no part in this argument over what 'XXX stations' really means.

So i humbly apologise for bringing that into it. It seems to have no relevance whatsoever.
I still say though that nothing in the routeing guide stops me from going onto the fares rule, and this bars the use of Leeds full stop.
It is very unobvious, and the wording of the rule is a bit silly regarding going past stages 1-3. Nothing in the wording stops me going to the fares rule though. So this does show that Forster Sq to Leeds to N Pudsey is not valid.

So, whilst i say that proves it still, it is blatantly silly that it is so difficult to work this out.

OwlMan · 17 Apr 2011

junglejames said:
.......
So i humbly apologise for bringing that into it. It seems to have no relevance whatsoever.
I still say though that nothing in the routeing guide stops me from going onto the fares rule, and this bars the use of Leeds full stop.
It is very unobvious, and the wording of the rule is a bit silly regarding going past stages 1-3. ...

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the
same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a
particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which
pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide
may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route
description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.
To identify a permitted route the basic steps outlined below should always be
followed:
For all local journeys throughout most of the country the user should follow
the first three steps (Steps 1-3), which will identify the permitted route.
However, for longer distance journeys, where the origin and destination have
no common routeing point, stages 4 - 7 will need to be followed.

Read the piece in Red - Stages 4-7 do not apply in this case only steps 1-3 are relevent. The fares rule is in stage 4

Peter

junglejames · 17 Apr 2011

collybs said:
Read the piece in Red - Stages 4-7 do not apply in this case only steps 1-3 are relevent. The fares rule is in stage 4

Peter

The bit in red doesnt say that 4-7 are not valid in this case. It only says that 4-7 need to be used for longer journeys (i know im being nit picky, but it seems as though you need to with this RG!!). The important bit in this case is the bit you have highlighted in bold letters. It says for local journeys you should use stages 1-3. Looking in the dictionary 'should' can mean 'a likelihood'. So in this case, with the rule using the word 'should' it isnt actually preventing me from going to the next stages. Is that making sense?

I know what they mean by this rule, and i know they dont mean it how i have read it, but it is the case, that with the way they have worded it, i can go on to the next stages.

Admittedly though, its all extremely stupid, and there needs to be a written rule that says what 'XXX stations' means in cases like this.

hairyhandedfool · 18 Apr 2011

Some people in here would benefit from actually reading the Routeing Guide!

sheff1 said:
With all due respect, it is not your view which is relevant but what the National Routeing Guide says. NRCoC Condition 13 is clear that you can travel by any route shown in the NRG.

sheff1 said:
But my origin is Forster Square and the Routeing Guide confirms I can travel via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates i.e via Leeds. There is no regular scheduled passenger train service through the streets of central Bradford.

glynn80 said:
Well I'm sorry but it does matter to the school of thought, that is arguing that when you buy a ticket from an "XXX Stations" origin, you are permitted to depart from whichever station in the group you wish.

And the shortest route from FS to New Pudsey we can now say is conclusively via Leeds.

The NCoC says you can use:

A train that calls at both the origin and the destination.
The shortest route.
A route allowed by the Routeing Guide

The Routeing Guide says that if the route chosen by the passenger is NOT the shortest route or by a service that calls at both the origin and destination, you should consult the instructions to see if the ticket is valid by that route.

Stages 1 and 2 seek to clarify the origin and destination Routeing Points.

Stage 3 says "If the origin and destination share a common routeing point the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance between the origin and destination over which a regular scheduled passenger service operates.....Some origins and destinations have more than one common routeing point. The permitted route is the shortest of all the alternatives. Once again, reference should be made to any regular scheduled services whether any easements apply in Section E that would allow doubling back".

So, the three routes available are:

A service that calls at both the origin and the destination (NCoC)
The shortest route (NCoC)
Direct via the shortest route (RG)

The origin is BRADFORD STATIONS, not Bradford Interchange or Bradford Forster Square. Bradford Stations is EITHER Bradford Interchange OR Bradford Forster Square.

There is a service that calls at Bradford Interchange and New Pudsey, this is a valid route. There is not a service that calls at Bradford Forster Square and New Pudsey.

The shortest route from EITHER Bradford Interchange OR Bradford Forster Square to New Pudsey is from Bradford Interchange.

Just because I buy a ticket from a station, it doesn't make it valid from that station, some people here are seeking to justify a route based on that premise. I could buy a ticket from London Terminals to Exeter at City Thameslink, but that alone does not make it valid from City Thameslink!

sheff1 · 18 Apr 2011

I have read the Routeing Guide thank you.

As I result I am fully aware that (i) in the 'Pink Pages' there is "a list of National Rail Stations and the routeing point(s) associated with those stations."; (ii) this list includes Bradford F Sq and Bradford Interch separately as origin stations. Nowhere do the Pink Pages (use of which is, of course, Step 1 in the process) list 'Bradford Stations' as an origin.

Just because the result is not to certain people's liking dosen't mean we can ignore Step 1 and make up individual definitions of 'origin'.

junglejames · 18 Apr 2011

hairyhandedfool said:
Some people in here would benefit from actually reading the Routeing Guide!

The NCoC says you can use:

A train that calls at both the origin and the destination.
The shortest route.
A route allowed by the Routeing Guide

The Routeing Guide says that if the route chosen by the passenger is NOT the shortest route or by a service that calls at both the origin and destination, you should consult the instructions to see if the ticket is valid by that route.

Stages 1 and 2 seek to clarify the origin and destination Routeing Points.

Stage 3 says "If the origin and destination share a common routeing point the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance between the origin and destination over which a regular scheduled passenger service operates.....Some origins and destinations have more than one common routeing point. The permitted route is the shortest of all the alternatives. Once again, reference should be made to any regular scheduled services whether any easements apply in Section E that would allow doubling back".

So, the three routes available are:

A service that calls at both the origin and the destination (NCoC)
The shortest route (NCoC)
Direct via the shortest route (RG)

The origin is BRADFORD STATIONS, not Bradford Interchange or Bradford Forster Square. Bradford Stations is EITHER Bradford Interchange OR Bradford Forster Square.

There is a service that calls at Bradford Interchange and New Pudsey, this is a valid route. There is not a service that calls at Bradford Forster Square and New Pudsey.

The shortest route from EITHER Bradford Interchange OR Bradford Forster Square to New Pudsey is from Bradford Interchange.

Just because I buy a ticket from a station, it doesn't make it valid from that station, some people here are seeking to justify a route based on that premise. I could buy a ticket from London Terminals to Exeter at City Thameslink, but that alone does not make it valid from City Thameslink!

Your 100% right, of course you are. But the problem is it isnt very obvious what 'XXX stations' actually means. We know what it means, i think we probably all do, but where does it say this?
The only way I have seen that could possibly rule out going via Leeds is the fares rule. However the routeing guide tries to imply that you shouldnt go onto the fares rule for local journeys. Its only because i have taken their words literally, that i can actually go onto the fares rule. But admittedly its stupid.
Ive tried to prove it other ways, but each time ive come a cropper and had to humbly apologise.

So yes, we are purely down to what they mean by 'Stations'. I know what they mean by it, and i think we all know what your saying is right, but where is it actually mentioned? Very little now points to what it means, and there is very little actual proof as to what it means.

If it was a longer journey, then it wouldnt matter. The maps would make it obvious. But there are no maps for this journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

sheff1 said:
I have read the Routeing Guide thank you.

As I result I am fully aware that (i) in the 'Pink Pages' there is "a list of National Rail Stations and the routeing point(s) associated with those stations."; (ii) this list includes Bradford F Sq and Bradford Interch separately as origin stations. Nowhere do the Pink Pages (use of which is, of course, Step 1 in the process) list 'Bradford Stations' as an origin.

Just because the result is not to certain people's liking dosen't mean we can ignore Step 1 and make up individual definitions of 'origin'.

What it says in the pink pages isnt much use when you get a ticket saying 'Bradford stations' though.
I think its plainly obvious what they mean by 'XXX stations'. I think most people do realise what they mean, but now its chasing evidence of this. Ive tried hard, and ive read into things that perhaps you shouldnt need to. But hey, nothing is obvious. I thought at first it was obvious, but then realised actually i was reading into things in the wrong way.
Id never try this journey from Forster Sq because i know what they mean, but if anybody did try it and got stopped, they may have a good chance of successfully appealing, because it isnt obvious anywhere

clagmonster · 18 Apr 2011

HHF, I think you have the intended interpretation, and what I would hope to be the set of valid routes. But I don't think the Routeing Guide is worded strongly enough to make it the only logical conclusion, and I think that John and Glynn's interpretation is, technically correct because as far as I can see, they don't break any rules at any point. There is nothing to specifically state that, when calculating the shortest route, you must calculate the shortest route from Bradford Stations, rather than any member of Bradford Stations.

There are two easy ways for Northern to remedy this, and other similar anomalies. They could change the routeings on the tickets (although I think that 'Not Leeds' and 'Any Permitted' would be best) or they could change the flow to be Bradford Int-New Pudsey (they could even keep a higher priced Bradford Stations flow).
Of course, the harder way, but much more comprehensive, would be to reword parts of the routeing guide to adequately deal with cases like this (essentially every flow from x Stations).

junglejames · 18 Apr 2011

clagmonster said:
HHF, I think you have the intended interpretation, and what I would hope to be the set of valid routes. But I don't think the Routeing Guide is worded strongly enough to make it the only logical conclusion, and I think that John and Glynn's interpretation is, technically correct because as far as I can see, they don't break any rules at any point. There is nothing to specifically state that, when calculating the shortest route, you must calculate the shortest route from Bradford Stations, rather than any member of Bradford Stations.

There are two easy ways for Northern to remedy this, and other similar anomalies. They could change the routeings on the tickets (although I think that 'Not Leeds' and 'Any Permitted' would be best) or they could change the flow to be Bradford Int-New Pudsey (they could even keep a higher priced Bradford Stations flow).
Of course, the harder way, but much more comprehensive, would be to reword parts of the routeing guide to adequately deal with cases like this (essentially every flow from x Stations).

Another way, which would work in this case, but perhaps not all cases, is if they reworded the rule that tries to imply that you dont need to use stages 4-7 for thesae local journeys. Re word that, make it obvious that you are allowed to go onto stage 4 if needed, and Leeds is ruled out by the fares rule fair and square.

Solent&Wessex · 12 May 2011

Sorry to bump up an old thread, but when this was originally discussed I thought I would try and find out an official answer.

I emailed ATOC, citing some of the examples outlined in this thread. I have received the following response:

Dear Mr XXXX

Thank you for your email.

The Fares Group Stations are in place to simplify the range of prices that the industry maintains. The Routeing Guide details the route availability between each origin and destination. In some cases, it is possible to travel out from one member of the Fares Group and back to another but for many short distance journeys, this is often not possible, particularly where the group members are on different lines of route. Short distance travel from Farnborough Main/North would be a good example of this.

The grouping of stations is standard industry practice, and the example of travel from Bradford is akin to travel from London Stations/Terminals: just because it states London Terminals does not mean customers can travel from ANY of the London Stations to any particular destination.

With regard to travel between Bradford and New Pudsey, the only valid rail route for your £1.20 ticket is to go from Bradford Interchange. Should a customer wish to travel from Bradford Forster Square with the “Bradford Yk Stations” ticket then they would be required to walk from Bradford Forster Square to Bradford Interchange (from whence they commence their journey by train).

With regard to your other example, if SWT were to allow use of a ticket between Farnborough Stns and Blackwater to be used from Farnborough Main via Basingstoke/Reading or Woking/Guildford, it would have to build this wider availability into the prices it charges, which would not be popular with customers who simply want to travel on the direct train from Farnborough North (as anyone really making this journey would do). As most tickets can be used for break of journey, SWT would have to ensure that the fare from Farnborough to Blackwater did not undercut the most expensive of the fares for journeys between intermediate points – this is particularly difficult when FGW price Farnborough - Blackwater and SWT price many of the journeys that could be deemed intermediate if the wider availability via Basingstoke/Guildford were conceded.

To conclude, customers are able to use any permitted route from or to a particular station location but must check to ensure that there are no easements in place that forbid a particular journey. To calculate route permissions the user must specify a particular station location - the Routeing Guide does not recognise Fares Groups which are used solely to simplify the range of prices we maintain.

Kind regards,

John Horncastle

Customer Relations Manager

ATOC

This actually doesn't fully answer the original question or problem clearly, as for example the last "conclusion" paragraph actually means you could follow some of the logic outlined previously, and select Bradford Forster Square as your station location (thereby not recognising fares groups) and travel via Leeds.

tony_mac · 12 May 2011

I wonder if that person worked on the routeing guide!
my translation:-

no, that doesn't look right, but I can't find any rules that say it isn't, so if I keep writing stuff maybe nobody will notice that I haven't a clue....

LexyBoy · 12 May 2011

Like a lot of situations in the Routeing Guide (and with ticket restrictions, the CoC ...) there is an obvious commonsense answer - like the Bradford - New Pudsey example being valid only from Bradford Interchange.

However, since the RG (and restrictions, CoC etc) is supposed to be a precise, mechanical document detailing exactly what is permitted with no "wriggle room", it should spell out these "obvious" points, and often fails to, as here, leaving ATOC waffling somewhat.

As most tickets can be used for break of journey, SWT would have to ensure that the fare from Farnborough to Blackwater did not undercut the most expensive of the fares for journeys between intermediate points this is particularly difficult when FGW price Farnborough - Blackwater and SWT price many of the journeys that could be deemed intermediate if the wider availability via Basingstoke/Guildford were conceded.

Well well, imagine if that were to happen all over the network!

sheff1 · 12 May 2011

tony_mac said:
I wonder if that person worked on the routeing guide!
my translation:-

no, that doesn't look right, but I can't find any rules that say it isn't, so if I keep writing stuff maybe nobody will notice that I haven't a clue....

. Unfortunately for them they didn't keep writing long enough before they contradicted themselves.

Good to see the final paragraph confirm that the RG does not recognise Fare Groups as starting stations. Wonder what those who made up their own defintion of origin make of that ?

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