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Extensions of East-West Rail Past Oxford

The Planner

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It is a good idea, but the problem is it'll never compete with the Cowley plans on cost.
And buses will always be a better choice into the centre of Oxford from Abingdon, due to the sprawling estates meaning most of the population is closer to the A34 than the centre, and the frequency of service compared to your proposed train.

What might be a good idea is a bus shuttle to Radley if/when Didcot to Oxford is electrified and the service extended, because that could well be faster than buses into the city centre and would provide a better link to Reading/London/InterCity services at Didcot.
You could time it for 10 mins each way on a shuttle basis.

Where I would reopen the railway in that part of Oxon is the old Oxford, Witney and Fairford as far as Lechlade - it serves a population of around 50k around the extremely congested A40 corridor, the alignment is mostly intact, the population is rapidly growing in the area at a faster rate than Abingdon, and you can link with a new alignment south from east of Lechlade skirting Highworth to the GWML (adding another 15-20k to the catchment).
So you have not just a route serving those towns, but you have a direct route to extend regional EWR/GWR services from Swindon or Oxford, largely without interaction with the GWML/Cherwell Valley Line.
Is it intact? You are going to have problems with Eynsham and Witney itself. Even the proposal posted on here a while back had it substantially re-routed and not even getting close to Witney by staying south of the bypass.
 
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AlastairFraser

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Is it intact? You are going to have problems with Eynsham and Witney itself. Even the proposal posted on here a while back had it substantially re-routed and not even getting close to Witney by staying south of the bypass.
It isn't fully intact, but the only major barrier is at Witney itself, where you could reroute through a 0.3 mile tunnel under Ducklington and build a Witney Parkway station to the west.
The issues at Eynsham could be avoided by a curve to the south of the factory near Swinford Bridge and the industrial estate.
 

lpjthomad

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It isn't fully intact, but the only major barrier is at Witney itself, where you could reroute through a 0.3 mile tunnel under Ducklington and build a Witney Parkway station to the west.
The issues at Eynsham could be avoided by a curve to the south of the factory near Swinford Bridge and the industrial estate.
Said factory is due to close within the next decade, so maybe a potential station site?
 

The Planner

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It isn't fully intact, but the only major barrier is at Witney itself, where you could reroute through a 0.3 mile tunnel under Ducklington and build a Witney Parkway station to the west.
The issues at Eynsham could be avoided by a curve to the south of the factory near Swinford Bridge and the industrial estate.
Like I said when the other proposal was made though, you end up with a massive traffic influx trying to get to it as its right on the edge of the town.
 

ShadowKnight

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Conversely could the new GWR service from Bristol to Oxford be extended to MK?

Perhaps this could add competition and capacity against cross country and the cross country route (and lower their ticket prices)
 

fishwomp

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It is a good idea, but the problem is it'll never compete with the Cowley plans on cost.
And buses will always be a better choice into the centre of Oxford from Abingdon, due to the sprawling estates meaning most of the population is closer to the A34 than the centre, and the frequency of service compared to your proposed train.

What might be a good idea is a bus shuttle to Radley if/when Didcot to Oxford is electrified and the service extended, because that could well be faster than buses into the city centre and would provide a better link to Reading/London/InterCity services at Didcot.
You could time it for 10 mins each way on a shuttle basis.
Traffic into Oxford is terrible, and the last 2 miles by park and ride isn't great. A shuttle to Radley would be good - rather than 2x / hour which the bus is. Radley could become Abingdon Parkway even!
Where I would reopen the railway in that part of Oxon is the old Oxford, Witney and Fairford as far as Lechlade - it serves a population of around 50k around the extremely congested A40 corridor, the alignment is mostly intact, the population is rapidly growing in the area at a faster rate than Abingdon, and you can link with a new alignment south from east of Lechlade skirting Highworth to the GWML (adding another 15-20k to the catchment).
So you have not just a route serving those towns, but you have a direct route to extend regional EWR/GWR services from Swindon or Oxford, largely without interaction with the GWML/Cherwell Valley Line.
Witney's busy and could do with it - but west of that is pretty sparse and probably not too much need for connecting with Oxford. The closure and tracklifting was around 1980 1970 - hard to imagine that happening today!
 
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zwk500

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Conversely could the new GWR service from Bristol to Oxford be extended to MK?
Not without taking something out at MK for the platform, AIUI (once EWR is up and running).
Perhaps this could add competition and capacity against cross country and the cross country route (and lower their ticket prices)
It's not really competing for any XC traffic though, so it certainly wouldn't affect their ticket prices (especially as if anything they'd see it as market segmentation which eases their capacity slightly).
 

AlastairFraser

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Like I said when the other proposal was made though, you end up with a massive traffic influx trying to get to it as its right on the edge of the town.
It depends if people could use public transport to access the station.
Traffic into Oxford is terrible, and the last 2 miles by park and ride isn't great. A shuttle to Radley would be good - rather than 2x / hour which the bus is. Radley could become Abingdon Parkway even!

Witney's busy and could do with it - but west of that is pretty sparse and probably not too much need for connecting with Oxford. The closure and tracklifting was around 1980 1970 - hard to imagine that happening today!
I know traffic is terrible, but the frequency is key. Train would need at least 4tph direct to compete.
Radley could easily become a parkway for Abingdon, yes - although expanding the station parking on land to the east would be required as Radley residents already suffer from commuters parking all over the village.

As for the Witney reopening, you have to remember Carterton (inc. personnel and families resident at RAF Brize Norton) is around 20k and has significant traffic into Oxford.
Even if you weren't heading for Swindon, Carterton would be a logical end for a branch line in West Oxon.
 

zwk500

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Even if you weren't heading for Swindon, Carterton would be a logical end for a branch line in West Oxon.
Now it feels properly like we're into 'solution in search of a problem' territory.

There was reference earlier to EWR saying they couldn't do 4tph without going beyond Oxford - was this assuming Chiltern stayed at their current pattern or with them moving out to Cowley as well?

Given the eventual aim of EWR to run services further East, Oxford seems a very sensible Western limit as it is a large destination in its own right and opens up 1 change connections to the Hampshire and Dorset coast, Southampton and Bournemouth being the main potential traffic draws. A second change at Didcot opens up nearly all of GWRs network west as well. Terminating at Oxford minimises the transfer of delay, while sending Chiltern through to Cowley offers that branch a direct London service they would never otherwise get, the revenue and social benefits of which are most likely to justify the additional operational risks.
 

The Planner

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It depends if people could use public transport to access the station.
This is where generalised journey time plays a part. If you are having to rely on public transport to get to the station with a low frequency of trains, how far towards Oxford is that going to get you either in a car or bus? It would certainly apply off peak where traffic reduces towards Oxford. A rail service is unlikely to be more than 2tph, and without a lot of infrastructure, you might not even get that.
 

Topological

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I am still thinking Swindon is part of the answer, Didcot does not quite have the connections that Swindon does. There are some discussions of how Swindon station could be modified to accommodate both an EWR terminator and potential Paddington suburban terminators.
 

MarkyT

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I am still thinking Swindon is part of the answer, Didcot does not quite have the connections that Swindon does. There are some discussions of how Swindon station could be modified to accommodate both an EWR terminator and potential Paddington suburban terminators.
I've got a suggestion for that when I get back to my laptop...
 

AlastairFraser

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This is where generalised journey time plays a part. If you are having to rely on public transport to get to the station with a low frequency of trains, how far towards Oxford is that going to get you either in a car or bus? It would certainly apply off peak where traffic reduces towards Oxford. A rail service is unlikely to be more than 2tph, and without a lot of infrastructure, you might not even get that.
It does has the big advantage of being in close proximity to an arterial road out of Witney, where as Abingdon's station location is rather peripheral.
 

The Planner

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It does has the big advantage of being in close proximity to an arterial road out of Witney, where as Abingdon's station location is rather peripheral.
You are still looking at 10 minutes journey time from the centre of Witney out to the Ducklington roundabout. Looking at GoogleMaps, anyone to the east of the High St is just going to carry on as they are. Id be very surprised if they bothered trying to fight through Eynsham to get to a station there either, unless it is the proposal to re-route the railway to the north which would make more sense for them.
 

cle

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There is the stretch of 125mph running so yes Swindon has more long distance GWR calls, but it’s a harder stretch and a long way of nothing.

Didcot of course connects much closer to Reading and TV towns. If XC called that would help but it’s probably not a good idea for other reasons.

Reading would also be a worthy 1tph, with many more connections and a destination itself.
I am still thinking Swindon is part of the answer, Didcot does not quite have the connections that Swindon does. There are some discussions of how Swindon station could be modified to accommodate both an EWR terminator and potential Paddington suburban terminators.
 

Topological

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There is the stretch of 125mph running so yes Swindon has more long distance GWR calls, but it’s a harder stretch and a long way of nothing.

Didcot of course connects much closer to Reading and TV towns. If XC called that would help but it’s probably not a good idea for other reasons.

Reading would also be a worthy 1tph, with many more connections and a destination itself.
My logic on that would be the Oxford call already allows for connections to Reading.

The proposal to extend to Swindon would also include a Didcot call since it would seem odd to use the curve and avoid Didcot when there are platforms that can be used for reversal. Has the added benefit that turning round short in disruption is not the end of the world for passengers wanting Swindon.
 

MarkyT

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There is the stretch of 125mph running so yes Swindon has more long distance GWR calls, but it’s a harder stretch and a long way of nothing.

Didcot of course connects much closer to Reading and TV towns. If XC called that would help but it’s probably not a good idea for other reasons.

Reading would also be a worthy 1tph, with many more connections and a destination itself.
Many journeys connectable through Reading to east of Bletchley might be more quickly routed through London, or via XC direct from the South Coast to Oxford for interchange, while Swindon follows the general east - west trajectory and connects with trains heading further west. I think Swindon better matches up with the Oxford to Bedford and Cambridge service for capturing longer journeys, although Milton Keynes - Reading might make some sense. There could be slower paths routed via the 3.5-mile-long reliefs between Wantage Road and Challow. That would favour a new station at Grove as a stop there would increase the time on the reliefs for a slower train to be overtaken by an Express. With EWR's diesels, I wouldn't advocate running them any significant distance under the wires on GWML or elsewhere. When they eventually trade them in for battery-equipped EMUs, running to Swindon would be beneficial as it would give them a good long run under wires at the west end of the circuit to charge up en route without requiring any long charging dwells at termini.
 

AlastairFraser

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You are still looking at 10 minutes journey time from the centre of Witney out to the Ducklington roundabout. Looking at GoogleMaps, anyone to the east of the High St is just going to carry on as they are. Id be very surprised if they bothered trying to fight through Eynsham to get to a station there either, unless it is the proposal to re-route the railway to the north which would make more sense for them.
I don't know how well you know West Oxon, but the A40 corridor has to be one of the worst for congestion and overall reliability, so it isn't a question of just carrying on into Oxford.
Add in the parking game in the city centre and the rail option is much more attractive.
An alignment to the north of Eynsham is an interesting idea to be fair, and I agree much more workable, although a new Eynsham park and ride will make things easier if it has a dedicated shuttle into Oxford.
 

mwmbwls

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Many journeys connectable through Reading to east of Bletchley might be more quickly routed through London, or via XC direct from the South Coast to Oxford for interchange, while Swindon follows the general east - west trajectory and connects with trains heading further west. I think Swindon better matches up with the Oxford to Bedford and Cambridge service for capturing longer journeys, although Milton Keynes - Reading might make some sense. There could be slower paths routed via the 3.5-mile-long reliefs between Wantage Road and Challow. That would favour a new station at Grove as a stop there would increase the time on the reliefs for a slower train to be overtaken by an Express. With EWR's diesels, I wouldn't advocate running them any significant distance under the wires on GWML or elsewhere. When they eventually trade them in for battery-equipped EMUs, running to Swindon would be beneficial as it would give them a good long run under wires at the west end of the circuit to charge up en route without requiring any long charging dwells at termini.
I concur with your Swindon to Oxford, Bedford and Cambridge suggestion, especially in the light of Oxford station's rebuild. I always assumed that at some point the Cowley Branch would link into services to Milton Keynes in a similar manner to the Aylesbury to Bletchley service. As to the question of EWR not being wired ab initio - I am of the view that as Felixstowe to Ely is on the,albeit distant CILT agenda because battery power for freight won't hack it) for electrification and also that Network Rail have already proposed a new east west chord near Soham to avoid existing loading gauge constraints at Newmarket that (a) if not electrified on opening it would be in due course and that (b) the original concept of EWR sreaching both Ispwich and Norwich will happen at some point.
 

cle

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Oxford's current rebuild is only on the Botley side. Which will add a much needed through platform.

The main station rebuild will be a much bigger job - and have to add a bigger building, a new through platform, potentially another Bicester-facing bay too. And consider wires, Cowley / additional line capacity, signal work, you name it.

Swindon isn't the most glamorous but it does have good connections west. Reading has good connections south-west. They are not mutually exclusive - and Reading is a far more important destination itself. Yes, it does risk the 'via London is quicker' factor, but not for everywhere. It's still one of the biggest rail hubs in the region, and country. Far busier than Chippenham, Bath and both Bristols put together. Or Parkway, Newport and Cardiff.
 

rapmastaj

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For me, the ideal set of through-Oxford direct services, matching up the destinations in their most natural and popular combinations, would be:
- Cowley Branch to London Marylebone
- Reading to Milton Keynes
- Bristol Temple Meads to Cambridge (Bedford to start with)
 

Basil Jet

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For me, the ideal set of through-Oxford direct services, matching up the destinations in their most natural and popular combinations, would be:
- Cowley Branch to London Marylebone
- Reading to Milton Keynes
- Bristol Temple Meads to Cambridge (Bedford to start with)
Why not Basingstoke to Milton Keynes with a reversal on the north side of Reading?
 

Doctor Fegg

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You are still looking at 10 minutes journey time from the centre of Witney out to the Ducklington roundabout. Looking at GoogleMaps, anyone to the east of the High St is just going to carry on as they are. Id be very surprised if they bothered trying to fight through Eynsham to get to a station there either, unless it is the proposal to re-route the railway to the north which would make more sense for them.
As @AlastairFraser says, congestion on the A40 approaching Oxford (never mind Oxford itself) is such that "carrying on as they are" isn't really a viable option most times of the day.

Oxfordshire County Council is about to start work on Shores Green junction (map) to add west-facing sliproads, with the express intention that people on the east side of Witney will be able to use the A40 to access the Ducklington roundabout and similar areas, rather than having to fight through the one river crossing in the centre of Witney.

For Eynsham I believe the current railway proposal is indeed to reroute to the north.

But even if the line were ever (re)opened, Witney/Carterton would work as the terminus either of the hourly non-Cotswold IET from Paddington to Oxford, or of the 387 electric stopping service. It wouldn't really make any sense to link it into EWR.
 

AlastairFraser

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For me, the ideal set of through-Oxford direct services, matching up the destinations in their most natural and popular combinations, would be:
- Cowley Branch to London Marylebone
- Reading to Milton Keynes
- Bristol Temple Meads to Cambridge (Bedford to start with)
Cowley to London Marylebone is an odd choice.
There's not a lot of demand to places like High Wycombe/Bicester/Beaconsfield from south Oxford, and the few destinations out towards that way
Places like Aylesbury via Princes Risborough and Thame require a change onto another train or bus, while there is a direct bus from the city centre to both places (which is relatively fast for the distance and volume of passengers because the roads are fast and relatively uncongested that side of Oxford due to the M40).

Reading to MK would be nice, but I don't think there currently is the space for it on the Great Western Main Line (GWML), plus there's plenty of trains direct to Oxford from Reading/Didcot.

Bristol TM to Cambridge would be great if you could fit on the GWML west of Didcot.
As @AlastairFraser says, congestion on the A40 approaching Oxford (never mind Oxford itself) is such that "carrying on as they are" isn't really a viable option most times of the day.

Oxfordshire County Council is about to start work on Shores Green junction (map) to add west-facing sliproads, with the express intention that people on the east side of Witney will be able to use the A40 to access the Ducklington roundabout and similar areas, rather than having to fight through the one river crossing in the centre of Witney.

For Eynsham I believe the current railway proposal is indeed to reroute to the north.

But even if the line were ever (re)opened, Witney/Carterton would work as the terminus either of the hourly non-Cotswold IET from Paddington to Oxford, or of the 387 electric stopping service. It wouldn't really make any sense to link it into EWR.
Fully agreed on most of it including Carterton being a great a place for the stopper to end, not sure I would send the IET there though (Banbury for connections if paths could be found, and perhaps Stratford via Honeybourne if they ever get round to reopening that).
 

The Planner

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Cowley to London Marylebone is an odd choice.
There's not a lot of demand to places like High Wycombe/Bicester/Beaconsfield from south Oxford, and the few destinations out towards that way
Places like Aylesbury via Princes Risborough and Thame require a change onto another train or bus, while there is a direct bus from the city centre to both places (which is relatively fast for the distance and volume of passengers because the roads are fast and relatively uncongested that side of Oxford due to the M40).
Don't think of it of a through service based on those parameters, it allows the Cowley branch the connection to other services at Oxford whilst being able to hide a Chiltern service. Its like the TfW service to Birmingham International, it gets it out of New St.
 

AlastairFraser

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Don't think of it of a through service based on those parameters, it allows the Cowley branch the connection to other services at Oxford whilst being able to hide a Chiltern service. Its like the TfW service to Birmingham International, it gets it out of New St.
EWR trains also need storing elsewhere and would provide more useful connections in my view.
There's always the bays at Oxford Station proper for storing a unit before the return to Marylebone.
You also may be able to confirm whether Hinksey Yard is available for use, that could be another alternative.
 

The Planner

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EWR trains also need storing elsewhere and would provide more useful connections in my view.
There's always the bays at Oxford Station proper for storing a unit before the return to Marylebone.
You also may be able to confirm whether Hinksey Yard is available for use, that could be another alternative.
Considering the nightmare timetabling the Milton Keynes trains, don't assume Oxford has room. Hinksey would be an operational nightmare getting across the layout twice.
 

cle

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EWR trains also need storing elsewhere and would provide more useful connections in my view.
There's always the bays at Oxford Station proper for storing a unit before the return to Marylebone.
You also may be able to confirm whether Hinksey Yard is available for use, that could be another alternative.
Oxford will probably lose a bay on its rebuild - for a through platform (which this Cowley would probably use both directions)

I would hope it gets another bay so that EWR have two, especially if they eventually get to Bedford and 4tph.

I think there would be more demand to/from London to the Science/Business Parks, and BMW/Mini, than from MK, personally. But it doesn't matter that much - 2tph clockface need to get out of the way at Oxford.
 

AlastairFraser

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Considering the nightmare timetabling the Milton Keynes trains, don't assume Oxford has room. Hinksey would be an operational nightmare getting across the layout twice.
I bow to your superior knowledge on Hinksey Yard, perhaps some track layout changes would be prudent once EWR is complete.
Oxford will probably lose a bay on its rebuild - for a through platform (which this Cowley would probably use both directions)

I would hope it gets another bay so that EWR have two, especially if they eventually get to Bedford and 4tph.

I think there would be more demand to/from London to the Science/Business Parks, and BMW/Mini, than from MK, personally. But it doesn't matter that much - 2tph clockface need to get out of the way at Oxford.
Agreed that another bay would be useful.
As for the demand, the fastest route to London involves changing at Oxford on a GWR InterCity into London, so the Marylebone service isn't useful in this regard.
EWR would connect to Oxford main, and the WCML connections at MK/MML connections at Bedford eventually.
 

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