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Third rail - becoming a better option for electrification?

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mike57

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It was often said that third rail extensions could be largely done by the then BR maintenance gangs, as the SR sleepers were pre-drilled for the pots etc.
I think this highlights the main difference between 3rd rail installation and OLHE, as in general 3rd rail doesn't require large amounts of civils work. OHLE requires potential bridge raises, tunnels are an issue, station canopies sometimes have to be redesigned and rebuilt, and there can be issues with the ground into which the support masts are inserted. None of these issues occur with 3rd rail.

I repeat, 3rd rail is not the answer for Inter City and other major routes, but it could be a cheap way of dealing with a lot of the less busy routes.
 
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DjU

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ORR won't even allow that, which is why the electrification programme has collapsed.

There will be no more third rail electrification in the UK, but there will be precious little new electrification full stop
Unless there has been a statement or news from the ORR in the last year clarifying this then the continued use of the statement that there is some full stop ban on any 3rd rail installation repeated in this thread is just perpetuating a bit of myth. - If there has been I stand corrcted but it would be good to see.

There has been a lecture/presentation within the last 14 months where Network Rail southern region were specifically scoping and looking at 3rd rail infills as well as discontinuous electrification - specifically at places like Uckfield. Working alonside with and complying with ORR was also mentioned.
 

HSTEd

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Unless there has been a statement or news from the ORR in the last year clarifying this then the continued use of the statement that there is some full stop ban on any 3rd rail installation repeated in this thread is just perpetuating a bit of myth. - If there has been I stand corrcted but it would be good to see.

There has been a lecture/presentation within the last 14 months where Network Rail southern region were specifically scoping and looking at 3rd rail infills as well as discontinuous electrification - specifically at places like Uckfield. Working alonside with and complying with ORR was also mentioned.
There is a presumption against approval of such schemes. In safety case speak that basically means "not a chance".

In the nuclear industry noone will even try to overcome such a bar because it is essentially impossible.
 

DjU

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There is a presumption against approval of such schemes. In safety case speak that basically means "not a chance".

In the nuclear industry noone will even try to overcome such a bar because it is essentially impossible.
Well NR were not presuming no chance and were trying to actively overcome this as recently as April 2023 and working with ORR to find these things to overcome and propose a viable working solution and proposals - so the will is there...

That project and trial may be dead now but who knows.
 

WAO

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Both the nuclear and aviation industries have tighter safety regimes than the Railway.

Both produce cost effective schemes for continuing progress.

Do we have a "not a chance" rail industry?"

WAO
 

HSTEd

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Both the nuclear and aviation industries have tighter safety regimes than the Railway.

Both produce cost effective schemes for continuing progress.
I don't see much about cost effective schemes in the nuclear industry, and I am in nuclear-adjacent academia!

I see a lot of feverish activity on projects that will never go anywhere.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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There is a presumption against approval of such schemes. In safety case speak that basically means "not a chance".

In the nuclear industry noone will even try to overcome such a bar because it is essentially impossible.
ORR haven't banned any extension they have just said they can't see how a safety case can be made that complies with the Electricity at Work Regulations.
 

HSTEd

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ORR haven't banned any extension they have just said they can't see how a safety case can be made that complies with the Electricity at Work Regulations.
Which is, de-facto, the same thing.

Since the regulatory regime essentially makes them the final arbiter of what does or does not achieve SFAIRP under the relevant legislation.

If they say they can't see how it can be made, it cannot be made unless ORR themselves decide to change their position. I see little evidence they are willing to seriously considering doing that.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Which is, de-facto, the same thing.

Since the regulatory regime essentially makes them the final arbiter of what does or does not achieve SFAIRP under the relevant legislation.

If they say they can't see how it can be made, it cannot be made unless ORR themselves decide to change their position. I see little evidence they are willing to seriously considering doing that.
Its not for ORR to determine how it can be made SFAIRP that is for the infrastructure operator to demonstrate. ORR last position (2015) on 3rd rail postulated its main concern was about surrounding isolations and working in close proximity to third rail. Since then NT has/is investing heavily in remote negative short circuiting devices along with virtually removing all staff from the live railway.

Fundamentally we all know top contact exposed DC traction system wouldn't be the choice today but its the most appropriate solution for less than an additional 100 route mile that would allow the removal for diesel trains the emissions of which are proven to have a health dis benefit.
 

HSTEd

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Its not for ORR to determine how it can be made SFAIRP that is for the infrastructure operator to demonstrate. ORR last position (2015) on 3rd rail postulated its main concern was about surrounding isolations and working in close proximity to third rail. Since then NT has/is investing heavily in remote negative short circuiting devices along with virtually removing all staff from the live railway.

Fundamentally we all know top contact exposed DC traction system wouldn't be the choice today but its the most appropriate solution for less than an additional 100 route mile that would allow the removal for diesel trains the emissions of which are proven to have a health dis benefit.
The operator must "demonstrate" it, but the only arbiter as to whether the operator has demonstrated it is the will of the ORR.

It doesn't matter what Network Rail says or does, if ORR says "no" that is essentially the end of the matter.

A "presumption against" is pretty much an impossible bar to beat, because the ORR is not going to change its mind short of something epoch defining occuring.
 
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zwk500

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A ban that's not called a "ban" is still a ban.
But it's not a ban when there's a paper published by the safety authorities saying 'here's what we would require to make it safe, it's up to you to justify the costs'.
 

yorksrob

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But it's not a ban when there's a paper published by the safety authorities saying 'here's what we would require to make it safe, it's up to you to justify the costs'.

Depends what the requirements and the costs are I'd say.

Don't get me wrong - it's different if you're regulating something brand new like teleportation for example, however when you're talking about extending a system that already straddles the south of England, it's different.
 

AM9

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A ban that's not called a "ban" is still a ban.
It's not a ban, - it's just too much bother to meet the safety requirements, only to end up with all the other shortfalls of 3rd rail and low voltage electrification. Be under no illusion, the ORR and HSE could watch over operation of any scheme that they approved in the future like hawks. One serious incident and it could cause even more tightening of the requirements across wrd rail including some presumed 'grandfather rights'.
 

yorksrob

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It's not a ban, - it's just too much bother to meet the safety requirements, only to end up with all the other shortfalls of 3rd rail and low voltage electrification. Be under no illusion, the ORR and HSE could watch over operation of any scheme that they approved in the future like hawks. One serious incident and it could cause even more tightening of the requirements across wrd rail including some presumed 'grandfather rights'.

Is there any less danger of that happening due to an incident on the existing network ?

I'm only interested in the practical end result, not the semantics.

Buying battery trains instead of electrifying to one station down the track tells me that there's a ban in all but name.
 

zwk500

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Buying battery trains instead of electrifying to one station down the track tells me that there's a ban in all but name.
And the fitment of a new third rail system to the ELL tells you there isn't.

Although I do agree it was silly not to electrify to Headbolt Lane, even if Merseyrail were getting battery units regardless. 1-2km short bolt-ons for operational smoothness are exactly the kind of interventions needed to meet the strategic goals for a decarbonised railway. Are there any level crossings on the battery section?
 

yorksrob

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And the fitment of a new third rail system to the ELL tells you there isn't.

Although I do agree it was silly not to electrify to Headbolt Lane, even if Merseyrail were getting battery units regardless. 1-2km short bolt-ons for operational smoothness are exactly the kind of interventions needed to meet the strategic goals for a decarbonised railway. Are there any level crossings on the battery section?

It's not quite the same though. The ELL previously had conductor rail, so must have had some grandfather rights.

Not sure about level crossings to Headbolt Lane though.
 

zwk500

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It's not quite the same though. The ELL previously had conductor rail, so must have had some grandfather rights.
It was almost completely rebuilt. If there was a ban, then it was the perfect opportunity to fit OLE from Highbury to Whitechapel. But because the line is grade separated with very little opportunity for trespass, Third Rail was fitted. So there's no ban, just a high safety threshold.
 

Peter Wilde

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Unfortunately recent projects have shown that installation costs are high, and tend to run out of control, and the supporting works, bridge, tunnel and platform canopy changes add further cost, including issues which only come to light once you start. OHLE may be the gold standard, and on routes where line speeds are 100mph+ (including an allowance for reasonable upgrades to 100mph+) then its also the right answer. However a cheaper and less invasive solution is needed for a lot of secondary routes if diesel operation is to be phased out. Batteries are another option, but add weight, and still have limitations. Realistically there are large sections of the network which will never see OLHE

Bottom contact exists in other countries, so why are we starting from scratch... Take a current design and use it. Go for a contact rail that has protection on 3 sides, possibly some form of extruded insulation, and make a kit of standard parts, with say 60, 30 and 10ft lengths with standard lead in and out ramps which bolt together. Mass produce these, with the mounts. Design a standard 3 phase HV AC / DC grid fed converter packaged in a container that can sit at the side every few miles, and in areas where grid feed is tricky link with a high voltage cable and maybe have a standard static battery module to provide peak power where grid supply is limited/unreliable. Reduce the 'custom' design element to a minimum. Think meccano kit. For the first phase dont try and mix with the current DC top contact system, there are huge parts of the network which are nowhere near current 3rd rail territory.

Use a higher voltage, (1000-1500v) dc to reduce losses, and set a realistic max current draw, we are talking max speed 90mph on rural and suburban services and in a lot of cases 75mph, probably 8 car max, and frequently 3/4 car. Have small batteries to avoid gapping and provide additional acceleration as well as short (5 miles at half power?) moves off the juice. This also means that complex conductor rail configurations at junctions can be avoided.

Set up a trial on a (mainly self contained) route to iron out issues. Then rollout on an area basis. Spec all new EMUs as dual voltage, modern electronics means this is no longer a problem. Long rural routes could have bigger batteries and powered islands typically in and around stations and maybe on long climbs, with less visual intrusion through sensitive areas. This solution could in my opinion be much cheaper to install and could deliver a way of dealing with the large number of routes off the main Inter City and big city metro systems. If the sparks effect revitalises a route then consider upgrade to OLHE and transfer the DC kit into a pool of spares to maintain and extend on other routes at some point in the future.

There will be limitations, but properly developed and delivered it could give a low cost quick to install solution. Set some very clear goals to avoid over engineering and scope creep.

In terms of disruption a custom installation train could probably lay significant amounts during overnight possesions, the routes that would be upgraded probably have no overnight service.
That seems an interesting and well thought out proposition.

In considering whether a safety case could be made convincing, there are some arguments on both sides, including:

How much safer would a shrouded, bottom contact third rail system be, compared to the bare top-contact Southern legacy system? I wonder if any studies have been done of the residual risk to those who might be on the track, including maintenance workers, as well as trespassers, etc?

How would the risk from such a modern 3rd rail system compare to that from 25kv OLE (which of course is not totally safe)?

On the other hand, how much new risk would arise from lack of public awareness of 3rd rail electrification, if a modern shrouded system was used as you suggest for new installations on secondary lines well away from traditional 3rd rail legacy systems? (While some unfortunate electrocution incidents involving ignorant trespassers, etc still occur in places like the Southern network, there would surely be many more if the general public in 3rd rail territory did not have some degree of historical awareness of 3rd rail risks).
 

AM9

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Is there any less danger of that happening due to an incident on the existing network ?

I'm only interested in the practical end result, not the semantics.

Buying battery trains instead of electrifying to one station down the track tells me that there's a ban in all but name.
Actually yes. The existing 3rd rail has largely been in operation for some time, - up to 100 years in a few locations. Thus, despite the continued existence of a significant number of careless and plain stupid idiots, the majority of people on and around those legacy 3rd rail routes are aware of the risks and aren't stupid so the number of serious incidents is borderline acceptable. If however any existing unelectrified track is fitted with live 3rd rail, it represents a new education task to make everbody aware of the new risks because there's less or no inherent local experience in dealing with the risks. I think permitting a new risk location would be considered unreasonable by the ORR and in virtually every instance they would be minded to reject any applications, - irrespective of cost savings or profitability. Just imagine the political backlash and many parts of the mass media's reraction to loss of life under those circumstances. Those are practical end results.
 

DjU

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Just to add to the thread about the fact that NR Southern Region are actively investigating schemes and mitigations they can propose and not just sitting on "presumption against". Yes nothing is approved and it could all get refused but they see DC extensions as the best case for a number of Southern routes.

Here is the same guy that gave a presentation in April 2023 giving a slightly more longer one - though the content is broadly the same - in September 2023

 

yorksrob

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Actually yes. The existing 3rd rail has largely been in operation for some time, - up to 100 years in a few locations. Thus, despite the continued existence of a significant number of careless and plain stupid idiots, the majority of people on and around those legacy 3rd rail routes are aware of the risks and aren't stupid so the number of serious incidents is borderline acceptable. If however any existing unelectrified track is fitted with live 3rd rail, it represents a new education task to make everbody aware of the new risks because there's less or no inherent local experience in dealing with the risks. I think permitting a new risk location would be considered unreasonable by the ORR and in virtually every instance they would be minded to reject any applications, - irrespective of cost savings or profitability. Just imagine the political backlash and many parts of the mass media's reraction to loss of life under those circumstances. Those are practical end results.

I would agree with your point if we were talking about installing third rail in Argyll, however is there really any justification for saying that people in Rye, or Buxted or North Camp are so isolated that they have no concept of the third rail network and its dangers ?

To ban extension to these areas on this basis is unjustifiable stupidity.
 

AM9

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I mentioned Buxted which is the next stop up !

But yes, I include Uckfield obviously.
So those stations and the track south of Edenbridge Town has never had exposed live conductors rails at ankle level before and the line runs in a corridor that is at least 5 miles from any other electrified line. That represent planty of idiot opportunities for lethal electric shocks, plus of course any live track workers.
It's seems very much that you are a fan of the 3rd rail electric railway judging by your picture of an obsolete EMU as your avatar, and your keeness to ignore or override the concerns that the responsible authority (ORR) about the safety issues of the obsolescent traction supply that the EBPs require.
 

yorksrob

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So those stations and the track south of Edenbridge Town has never had exposed live conductors rails at ankle level before and the line runs in a corridor that is at least 5 miles from any other electrified line. That represent planty of idiot opportunities for lethal electric shocks, plus of course any live track workers.
It's seems very much that you are a fan of the 3rd rail electric railway judging by your picture of an obsolete EMU as your avatar, and your keeness to ignore or override the concerns that the responsible authority (ORR) about the safety issues of the obsolescent traction supply that the EBPs require.

I do like obsolete traction, this is true.

However, the idea that third rail electrification is somehow alien to the citizens of Uckfield or Buxted is plainly an absurdity. Really a leafleting campaign and some safety visits by railway staff to local schools should provide an adequate opportunity to refresh the minds of those who may not have travelled more than five miles from their home for the last ten years.
 

Dr Hoo

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I do like obsolete traction, this is true.

However, the idea that third rail electrification is somehow alien to the citizens of Uckfield or Buxted is plainly an absurdity. Really a leafleting campaign and some safety visits by railway staff to local schools should provide an adequate opportunity to refresh the minds of those who may not have travelled more than five miles from their home for the last ten years.
Nice thought, Rob. Pity that it didn't work for the nine-year-old schoolboy whose inquest I attended after he was electrocuted.
 

yorksrob

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Nice thought, Rob. Pity that it didn't work for the nine-year-old schoolboy whose inquest I attended after he was electrocuted.

The world is full of danger.

I assume you never leave your front door.
 

Whistler40145

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Is it still the case that 3rd rail Electrification requires Feeder Stations to be located at regular intervals, whereas 25kV AC can be spaced out by a longer distance?
 
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