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Do TFL byelaw show on enhanced DBS
- Thread starter dumbgirl
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It's highly unlikely to show in EDBS. I put it like that since I have occasionally seen inappropriate content added into EDBS, thanks to input error at the courts, Disclosure Scotland or DBS - bad training or some such. Broadly speaking that sort of offence is not really the point of EDBS, but what is crucial is your job role, since at least in theory that defines the boundaries of the EDBS search. One specific issue is if the police were involved in your arrest since unstructured comments made by the police are potentially within the scope of EDBS, again depending on the job role.
The bigger issue, though, is if you for example apply for a job that has sensitivities to criminal records then overall it is best to be honest and open about your past. EDBS often covers roles in short supply and most employers will look at the broader picture rather than get too worried about a minor offence. If on the other hand you fail to tell your employer something they find out about via some other route then that's usually a lot more serious than not paying a tube fare.
The bigger issue, though, is if you for example apply for a job that has sensitivities to criminal records then overall it is best to be honest and open about your past. EDBS often covers roles in short supply and most employers will look at the broader picture rather than get too worried about a minor offence. If on the other hand you fail to tell your employer something they find out about via some other route then that's usually a lot more serious than not paying a tube fare.
They are not Police recordable offences usually (though very occasionally they end up on the PNC by mistake) but do get recorded in court records. They also sometimes get reported in local newspapers and local blog reports, though usually there needs to be "an angle", such as a big sum of money or a supreme act of stupidity. Also rail companies sometimes give summary reports to local media, though usually without names attached. You see the DBS / EDBS before your employer does and there is a facility to correct mistakes. The trouble with that is that the employer may find it odd if it takes a long time for you to produce your DBS certificate. Depending on the specific circumstances, you may need to declare your criminal record anyway, so it's not just about DBS. If it's something like an Advanced Nurse Practitioner then you need to take advice from the Royal College, it would be so easy to make a huge and life-changing mistake in this area. ANPs are held to a much higher standard than GPs.
A conviction for a Bylaw offence is a criminal conviction. Ordinarily bylaw convictions aren't entered into the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on DBS checks. That said, as noted above, mistakes sometimes happen when the data is inputted. Also, in some cases, additional background information can be disclosed although I doubt that a railway bylaw conviction would fall into this catageory in most instances.
If you are asked if you have a criminal conviction then it is far better to be truthful about it, regardless of whether it is recorded or not. A conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter is highly unlikely to impact career opportunities as long as you are honest about it. The problem is if you say you have no convictions and then your emplyer finds out that this isn't true...
If you are asked if you have a criminal conviction then it is far better to be truthful about it, regardless of whether it is recorded or not. A conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter is highly unlikely to impact career opportunities as long as you are honest about it. The problem is if you say you have no convictions and then your emplyer finds out that this isn't true...
If you do declare a conviction, and your employer indicates that this of no concern to them, I'd highly recommend getting this in writing and keeping this note safe. Sometimes management &/or HR can suffer corporate amnesia over the years. And an oral assurance is not worth the paper they didn't write it on.
I speak from experience (though over employment conditions, not a conviction issue!)
I speak from experience (though over employment conditions, not a conviction issue!)
If you need something as comprehensive as Developed Vetting you should 100% declare anything and everything that may come up.
if tfl byelaw 17 isnt recorded, how can it come up on developed vetting
Developed Vetting is pretty much the strictest and most intrusive form of vetting which you'd only get if working with National Security or Top Secret information. It involves a comprehensive search and personal interview. You should expect they will have information on you - don't forget that a Byelaw conviction is still a criminal conviction and there will be records of this.
It is nothing like a basic or enhanced DBS check and as part of it you are expected to be totally honest and open. Failing to disclose something because you think it won't come up is a big problem.
Are you sure you need Developed Vetting anyway?
Where will there be records of a TFL byelaw conviction ?
I might work in civil service so I would need developed vetting
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The point of DV is to ensure two things, in order to ensure you're not going to reveal state secrets.
1. You're completely telling the truth (as is anyone they interview on your behalf).
2. You're not susceptible to blackmail (so things like being gay but not fully out may be an issue, as is having financial problems or being likely to have them, as is a history of dishonesty).
You should always 100% tell the truth and reveal anything asked on such an interview - failure to do so, if found out, will ensure failure, whereas admitting to something minor up front most likely won't. And you can assume that if there is something to know they know it - their reach is far wider than a DBS check, though (intentionally) few people know exactly how wide. They aren't necessarily asking to find out, they're asking to see if what you tell them lines up with what they already know.
With regard to ticketing offences having been caught not paying once probably wouldn't be an issue if you had a reasonable excuse e.g. being in a hurry or genuinely forgetting at an ungated station and only realising when too late, but dishonesty like doughnutting or falsification could be because it's all about whether you can be trusted or not.
Not all civil service jobs involve DV, though. SC is far less wide-reaching and involves little more than a DBS type check and a credit check.
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Just because an offence is 'non-recordable' doesn't mean that there will be no records of it anywhere. TfL will have a record, the Court will too. You've been convicted of a criminal offence and that's a matter of public record.
Convictions, of any description can and will show on DVs, but there is an element of what the role is, and how long ago it happened.
Same as DBS/Enhanced really - it's all a red herring as to whether it shows up or not, if you are dishonest to your employer as well as to the rail company, it has the potential to cause lifelong problems. It's just not worth it. Plus, I have to say, if you are asking this question at all then an alarm bell is ringing in my head.
Same as DBS/Enhanced really - it's all a red herring as to whether it shows up or not, if you are dishonest to your employer as well as to the rail company, it has the potential to cause lifelong problems. It's just not worth it. Plus, I have to say, if you are asking this question at all then an alarm bell is ringing in my head.
This is the key thing. A Byelaw conviction is minor and if properly disclosed when required will have little to no effect on daily life. Failing to disclose it when you should will cause much bigger issues.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
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- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 2,997
I'd go a little further than @Bletchleyite: my impression is that overwhelmingly, jobs in the Civil Service do not require DV. It might be that @dumbgirl is looking specifically at roles that do need it - but if they just have a general plan to work somewhere in the Civil Service then DV is unlikely to be a concern.
Yes, mainly MOD and FCDO, plus a few nuclear agencies. You would essentially either need access to Top Secret material (not just the popular meaning of those words, the actual documentation category of TS) or have related access / knowledge to that materials such as Signals, or have close access to material from overseas institutions and governments which won't be using TS on their material but where it amounts to the same thing. And I would point out that CTC and SC also involve a financial history check........
For the OP, the advice being given is what it is, and given in good faith, but if you want specific and perhaps more useful advice, you may need to be a little clearer about the circumstances. For example in some roles you should contact your trade union, in other roles that may be counter-productive. Realistically there is a big difference between done for a £5 fare as a one off, and something like systematically and knowingly using someone else's Freedom Card.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
If you get Developed Vetting they will find your account here, as well, you can be sure of that. It is extremely thorough. DV is for people who handle the most sensitive information.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You'd be asked to declare it. Part of the form is about what online services, forums, social media etc you use and what your handle is so they can look what you post. (They may also find it out themselves and just be checking you're not lying of course!)
They even ask if you use pornography and if so for example URLs, I'm told by someone who did it! They will, at the end, know more about you than you do.
SC clearance also requires you to declare:
- any criminal convictions both spent and unspent in any country
- all offences no matter how long ago they were and how trivial you may think they are
The forms and guidance are available at www.gov.uk/government/collections/national-security-vetting
- any criminal convictions both spent and unspent in any country
- all offences no matter how long ago they were and how trivial you may think they are
The forms and guidance are available at www.gov.uk/government/collections/national-security-vetting
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I have a friend who went through DV when he started at "The Doughnut", and they even knew about the parking fines he'd had, all his social media accounts and even which motor clubs he was a member of!
It is VERY thorough!!
It is VERY thorough!!
As people have said, even if it doesn’t show up (which I would HIGHLY doubt based on how intense the interview is), it is still something you should mention on the initial form. I wouldn’t imagine a minor offence would massively affect the vetting process. Failing to disclose it would cause a much bigger issue, as it shows to the interviewer that you have lied.
I had to act as a witness for someone's DV... That was a 45 minute telephone interview.
I've gone through SC and NPPV. Our guidance for the latter is to declare "any police interaction", even as a witness or assisting police. The advice was also to do a change of circumstance form for every time you get flashed by a speed camera and put that on your annual declaration. The NPPV clearance seems to want more frequent updates than SC, but SC wants more information. CTC doesn't want as much as SC, but possible more than NPPV, or more in some areas.
Clearance is a pain in the backside, but the overarching thing is honesty. Do they care if you got a caution for nicking a handful of pick and mix from Woolworths years ago? Probably not. Do they care that you say you didn't get that caution when you did? Yes.
I've gone through SC and NPPV. Our guidance for the latter is to declare "any police interaction", even as a witness or assisting police. The advice was also to do a change of circumstance form for every time you get flashed by a speed camera and put that on your annual declaration. The NPPV clearance seems to want more frequent updates than SC, but SC wants more information. CTC doesn't want as much as SC, but possible more than NPPV, or more in some areas.
Clearance is a pain in the backside, but the overarching thing is honesty. Do they care if you got a caution for nicking a handful of pick and mix from Woolworths years ago? Probably not. Do they care that you say you didn't get that caution when you did? Yes.
@dumbgirl If you are a Civil Servant or applying to be a Civil Servant and your job role requires Developed Vetting it will say so on the advert.
As others have said I would declare everything because then you are being honest, if your not honest it could cost you the opportunity for not being honest.
I work for the Home Office and have a higher security clearance than basic and declared my being on a Debt Management Plan when I applied - I still got the job.
As others have said I would declare everything because then you are being honest, if your not honest it could cost you the opportunity for not being honest.
I work for the Home Office and have a higher security clearance than basic and declared my being on a Debt Management Plan when I applied - I still got the job.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Criminal cases are a matter of public record - at least in theory - effectively forever. The court holds them locally for a period of up to six years, after which the Courts and Tribunal service or the local county/city record office will retain the record. In theory, anyone can access them; they are public records, and for this reason you may not request for them to be destroyed.