Elecman
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It is live but not yet approved for use by the ORR
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
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jonesy3001
Established Member
See my post in the transpennine thread post 7556.
Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates, CP6
Actually yes, there was a different consistent for some of the MML tests. However, 90s are route cleared whilst 91s are not, so if used at all it would likely revert to the 90 formation similar to the GWML testing. A related and curious side question here, how do electric locos get...
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childwallblues
Established Member
Liverpool drivers will retain traction knowledge of the 769s as they take them to and from Allerton Depot.
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Greybeard33
Established Member
But how many Liverpool drivers? Just one link?
I am fully aware of what 769s are and the differences between them and the 319s from which they were modified. My comment was about how attitudes have changed, the continuous scorn about them being unsuitable and surprisingly, slower and less comfortable than the 150s that they replaced when running in Diesel mode. The fact is that they will have provided the railway with some useful experience of running mixed mode traction on short and medium length regional and outer suburban services. This experience will eventually place those tasked with ordering new bi-modes (DEMU or BEMU), and will probablygo a long way towards providing the passengers on these types of services with a universal level of accommodation both under wires and on non-electrified track.
childwallblues
Established Member
Well said. I have travelled on a number of 769s in recent weeks and their performance on both electric and diesel has been very satisfactory.
craigybagel
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From the info I was given for the driver route/traction knowledge thread, it's 1 link of 2 that signs them.
To be fair, a lot of the scorn was about how late into service they were, and how unreliable. Given we're still only seeing 50% of the fleet in use on a typical day, it still doesn't seem like much to shout home about.
I know I've been one of their biggest critics, but I can accept that the fact the 769 was ever made to work at all is an impressive achievement. I do agree there's an awful lot of useful data they've supplied. But I feel like the biggest lesson of all to be gained from both these units and the 230s is that whilst you can turn a purely electric unit into a diesel or bi-mode, you're probably a lot better off starting with a brand new unit and designing it the way you want from scratch.....
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I think the reason I find them rather slow is that I've been used to them whizzing along on electric for most of their lives. The difference before and after Bolton was very noticeable.
I agree with you conclusion, but at the time, (and ever since), there had been no serious appraisal of needs and analysis of design of working bimode multiple units. Courtesy of Porterbrook, whose efforts were of course primarily sweating the resource of off-lease trains, there is now a limited knowledge base on the relative performance of electric and diesel tractioninrhe same weight and space envelope. The technical reasons for choosing the 319s centered on their 750v DC bus and electronic traction control common to both AC and DC (3rd rail or genset) sources.
The use of a MK111 donor EMU was also useful, giving a direct read across between the 769's DEMU mode and it's sibling a class 150 DMMU performance. Despite the 150's superior power to weight ratio, when the 769s were deployed on appropriate routes, theor disadvantage in that respect was not as much as feared, and certainly gave a superior passenger experience.
I travelled on hardworking 319s from 1993 until their Thameslink withdrawal and managed to get travel behind 769424 in 2021, which was surprisingly smooth and quiet yet still managed a healthy 73mph on the Preston-Southport line.
Enough of my reminiscing.
childwallblues
Established Member
It would be nice if the Preston to Southport line still existed.
Oooops! I meant the Wigan to Southport line. It's a long way from here.
Greybeard33
Established Member
SNCF has had (purpose built) electro-diesel bi-modes in service since 2005 (Bombardier Class B 81500 and Class B 82500). The 769 was hardly cutting edge technology, nor has it significantly informed the design of subsequent bi-modes for the British loading gauge, such as the Stadler Class 755.
The french bimodes were designed for a larger CIE gauge than the UK's. Other than the 769 Flex there hasn't been any bimode development in the UK, the 755s were bought in. The Flirts also are unsuitable for many UK routes where platform lengths are at a premium because they waste several metres with the non-passenger power car. Meanwhile, the UK plods on buying DMUs with no prospect of modification to even EMU let alone battery power. Just importing units from overseas does nothing for UK rail engineering.
childwallblues
Established Member
Travelled on 769424 today from Wigan Wallgate to Southport in carriage 77337. Obviously this carriage in its Thameslink days had first class seating which has been left in place and Northern have just recovered. Very pleasant.
Another problem is that Liverpool guards don't sign them, although they have booked work on the Wigan to Man Vic peak services via Chat Moss, so they can only be substituted when there is a spare Wigan guard available.
From a guard's perspective, is there any difference between a 319 and a 769?
Yesterday, the PIS on 769424 said welcome aboard this class 319!
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
I especially like the 2+1 bit, when I'm ticking off 769s (typically just a journey from Wallgate to Hindley to be able to say I rode it) I always aim for a 1 seat because it's quite rare, not that the trains are even usually busy enough to require me to do that.
For anyone who doesn't know, the 2+1 bit is in the end of the half of the train with the pantograph on it, which can be useful for identifying from a distance (e.g. when it's arriving from Southport).
Greybeard33
Established Member
Before conversion to 769s, these 319/4s were arguably the best of Northern's 319 fleet, especially the declassified first class area.
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A slightly better day today, with 424, 434, 442, 448 and 458 all in service. And with 150115+156408 standing in on the sixth 769 diagram, all eight of Northern's Southport - Stalybridge/Oxford Road diagrams are 4-car, with no short forms - a rare event!
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pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Not only all the Southports, no short forms on Atherton line or the DMU on the peak Wigan-Manc.
The 769s being out in full seems quite important to having no short forms.
childwallblues
Established Member
According to RTT the 2F23 0832 from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street is 769456 vice a 331. Rtt does not have an allocation for the inward working 2V91 0728 from Liverpool. The 319 lives on!
150225 + 156424 were on 2O78 1405 from Southport to Manchester Oxford Road.
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And the service has run half an hour late ECS as 5F23, presumably due to no guard, but at least there’s now precedent for 769s to cover electric diagrams.
Greybeard33
Established Member
I believe 2O78 1405 Southport to Oxford Road forms part of one of the two Southport diagrams that are booked as 4-car 15x formations. There are not enough 769s to work all Southport services, even with a full turnout of 6 units (the remaining two being on exams).
I was so impressed with the legroom in the former first class area on the 769s I took this photo a couple of weeks ago:
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Principal difference is being aware that in the event of fire you might not want to exit the train from a driving vehicle.
In reality it's being aware of changeover points and waiting to see if power changeover works.
Just imagine, had the 769/9s been successfully launched into full service, and Northern expanded their fleet with a few, they could pull away on 3rd rail DC.
Yes I know they wouldn't even have got to the end of the platform before the 3rd rail parted company from the running rails.
Jamesrob637
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I miss the Southport to Alderley Edge 769s that I caught in 2021 with the ex-First Class. However, if it was 2-car rather than 769, I'd wait for the following Blackpool to Hazel Grove. Sadly, both are now consigned to the history books.
childwallblues
Established Member
Northern services have gone backwards in recent years. The splitting of the CLC Lime Street to Oxford Road is another. All in the name of progress so that longer distance services can use the Oxford Road to Piccadilly corridor.
It was almost impossible to miss the Southport to Alderley Edge 769s because they never ran on time, to the extent that I stopped bothering with the timetable when I wanted to go from Heaton Chapel to Wilmslow - I just turned up at a random time and a random train arrived. The change back to running the Crewe line services out of the main station at Piccadilly instead has vastly improved the service which was destroyed in 2018. Yes, it was occasionally nice to get the train home from Oxford Road but that was worsened by their poor time keeping plus random platform re-allocation at Oxford Road.