Evacuation in emergency - escape routes blocked

Planman · 25 Feb 2024

I have travelled recently where trains have been full of people standing in carriages and by door exists with luggage.
The TOCs seem to feel this is acceptable in terms of safety as train managers see it and have not taken action.
In the event of an emergency, especially a fire I am curious how passengers can be evaculated safely.
Airlines ban luggage which obstructs emergency access.I am unsure about Eurostar.

RailUK Forums

TheTallOne · 25 Feb 2024

Well, I assume these people would take their cases with them, freeing up the space by the doors.

That is if it is even exit via the doors, it might be via a window in some circumstances!

I know on airlines they say leave your belongings behind, but I can't imagine the "average" British person doing that - I reckon a good third of the plane wouldn't comply with that advice.

jfowkes · 25 Feb 2024

With train incidents, it's very unlikely that an unplanned fast evacuation would be necessary. In an overwhelming number of cases passengers are safer if they stay in the train and await instructions. When evacuation happens, it's planned and orderly with no time restriction so obstacles can be ignored/cleared as required.

Having said that there definitely have been modern instances of fires after crashes (I'm thinking specifically of Ladbroke Grove). Hopefully less of an issue as fleets get electrified and crashworthiness improves.

I'm more concerned about the ability of staff to move between coaches to assist passengers in the event of an incident, also a problem with severe overcrowding.

dk1 · 25 Feb 2024

Not much you can do about it really. You can add a catering trolley to the mix too sometimes as they get stuck. That’s an obstruction if you want to be pedantic.

zwk500 · 25 Feb 2024

Planman said:
I have travelled recently where trains have been full of people standing in carriages and by door exists with luggage.
The TOCs seem to feel this is acceptable in terms of safety as train managers see it and have not taken action.

It may be that TOCs simply feel they cannot do anything rather than that they feel it is acceptable.

Planman said:
In the event of an emergency, especially a fire I am curious how passengers can be evaculated safely.

It is a concern although as mentioned the cases could simply be pitched out of the door/window if an emergency evacuation was required

Planman said:
Airlines ban luggage which obstructs emergency access.I am unsure about Eurostar.

Eurostar has lots of luggage space and mandatory reservations so is extremely unlikely to be a problem. I've certainly seen very full Eurostars with all luggage fitting comfortably in the racks.

TheTallOne said:
I know on airlines they say leave your belongings behind, but I can't imagine the "average" British person doing that - I reckon a good third of the plane wouldn't comply with that advice.

There's been plenty of emergency evacuations of planes and it's never been mentioned that people stopping to collect belongings was a problem.

glasgowniteowl · 25 Feb 2024

This is not just an issue on trains, it also happens in stations, Glasgow Central frequently locks multiple marked fire exits later at night even whilst there are still trains due to arrive, the last avanti always arrives after the majority of marked escape routes have been locked

zwk500 · 25 Feb 2024

glasgowniteowl said:
This is not just an issue on trains, it also happens in stations, Glasgow Central frequently locks multiple marked fire exits later at night even whilst there are still trains due to arrive, the last avanti always arrives after the majority of marked escape routes have been locked

Presumably these are fitted with emergency release locks that are fitted into the alarm, or the safety assessment has determined that the lower number of passengers means an altered evacuation plan is acceptable.

Nym · 25 Feb 2024

That assumes of course that it’s not just become local procedure to avoid “problems” in a manner that has not been risk assessed. Local Managment are getting quite good at this on NR stations.
Modified evacuation plans or time dependant ones need a lot of infrastructure that I don’t think I’ve ever seen at Glasgow Central.

357 · 25 Feb 2024

Various stations can be just as bad for deliberately blocking fire exits.

Picture shows an emergency exit at Romford with fire exit signage and green light, blocked with a poster saying "no exit" and a large yellow barrier in an effort to stop fare evasion.

glasgowniteowl · 25 Feb 2024

zwk500 said:
Presumably these are fitted with emergency release locks that are fitted into the alarm, or the safety assessment has determined that the lower number of passengers means an altered evacuation plan is acceptable.

No emergency release locks, I also would not imagine the fire service allowing the locking of marked fire exits when passengers present, the passenger numbers are a little higher than you might think on that last avanti some nights

I fully imagine that the procedures have been put in place to reduce anti social behavior but would be highly surprised to see any sort of risk assessment that allows the locking of multiple marked fire exits while still passengers present

The Puddock · 25 Feb 2024

glasgowniteowl said:
No emergency release locks, I also would not imagine the fire service allowing the locking of marked fire exits when passengers present, the passenger numbers are a little higher than you might think on that last avanti some nights

I fully imagine that the procedures have been put in place to reduce anti social behavior but would be highly surprised to see any sort of risk assessment that allows the locking of multiple marked fire exits while still passengers present

If you’re genuinely concerned then you should report it to Glasgow City Council and/or Scottish Fire & Rescue Service.

43066 · 25 Feb 2024

Planman said:
I have travelled recently where trains have been full of people standing in carriages and by door exists with luggage.
The TOCs seem to feel this is acceptable in terms of safety as train managers see it and have not taken action.
In the event of an emergency, especially a fire I am curious how passengers can be evaculated safely.
Airlines ban luggage which obstructs emergency access.I am unsure about Eurostar.

People shouldn’t place baggage in front of doors, but if the train is too busy for the TM to walk through there’s little that can be done. If doors are defective and need to be locked out of use, there are rules around when the entire carriage also then needs to be locked out (particularly where it’s an end carriage with no corridor).

It isn’t really a safety issue; in almost all cases you’ll be safer staying on the train, if necessary passing through to another carriage, than you will be opening the doors.

glasgowniteowl · 25 Feb 2024

The Puddock said:
If you’re genuinely concerned then you should report it to Glasgow City Council and/or Scottish Fire & Rescue Service.

I've generally found that in the past that making various media organisations aware has a far better and further effect that can lead to organisational change to practices that may be going on nationwide

Lewisham2221 · 25 Feb 2024

jfowkes said:
Having said that there definitely have been modern instances of fires after crashes (I'm thinking specifically of Ladbroke Grove). Hopefully less of an issue as fleets get electrified and crashworthiness improves.

In instances such as this, I imagine the positioning of luggage before the crash becomes somewhat irrelevant?

edwin_m · 25 Feb 2024

zwk500 said:
There's been plenty of emergency evacuations of planes and it's never been mentioned that people stopping to collect belongings was a problem.

It is definitely a problem, to the extent that most/all airlines include it in their safety briefing. It's reported that one reason everyone in the A350 evacuated safely in the Tokyo runway collision was because nobody tried to take their luggage.

When the Japan Airlines plane caught fire, passengers made one choice that may have saved them

As investigators piece together what led to a fatal crash on the runway at Tokyo's Haneda Airport this week, aviation experts say this will be another opportunity for the industry to learn valuable lessons.

www.abc.net.au

Despite the potential for mass panic, the flight attendants can be heard urging everyone to "please cooperate" and evacuate the plane without stopping to collect their carry-on luggage.
...
The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) conducted a survey of passengers and flight attendants involved in 46 different evacuations in 2000.

The NTSB found that almost 50 per cent of people in an evacuation had tried to take a piece of luggage with them.

Those surveyed said that passengers retrieving bags was the biggest cause of delays.

I agree with the previous post that train evacuations are very different and very rarely time-critical. A train will usually burn much less quickly, if it burns at all, and as mentioned it is generally safer to remain on board. In the 1995 Maidenhead accident the front coaches of an HST were engulfed in burning diesel after the power car's fuel tank was damaged, and the only fatality was someone who escaped and was hit by another train.

As the train came to a halt a number of passengers jumped from the train on the unsafe side and made their way across the tracks to the far side. One of them narrowly escaped being hit by a passing HST travelling at speed towards London on the adjacent track unfortunately however, another male passenger... was struck and killed by this train."

43066 · 25 Feb 2024

357 said:
Various stations can be just as bad for deliberately blocking fire exits.

Picture shows an emergency exit at Romford with fire exit signage and green light, blocked with a poster saying "no exit" and a large yellow barrier in an effort to stop fare evasion.

This does seem completely bizarre, especially in the UK where we’re generally very hot on health and safety.

edwin_m said:
It is definitely a problem, to the extent that most/all airlines include it in their safety briefing. It's reported that one reason everyone in the A350 evacuated safely in the Tokyo runway collision was because nobody tried to take their luggage.

When the Japan Airlines plane caught fire, passengers made one choice that may have saved them

As investigators piece together what led to a fatal crash on the runway at Tokyo's Haneda Airport this week, aviation experts say this will be another opportunity for the industry to learn valuable lessons.

www.abc.net.au

If you’re on an airliner that crash lands you’ll often only have a very short time to escape it before it turns into a fireball. Needing to escape quickly just isn’t a consideration on the railway in the same way; as above, you’ll almost always be better off staying on board.

dk1 · 25 Feb 2024

Always makes me chuckle when passengers complain on ‘X’ or to others that their train is unsafe because it’s crowded. Well a typical tube is absolutely packed to the gunwales and hurtling along in a narrow tunnel deep underground.

Mojo · 25 Feb 2024

The Puddock said:
If you’re genuinely concerned then you should report it to Glasgow City Council and/or Scottish Fire & Rescue Service.

In my experience the fire brigade don’t seem too bothered by fire exits being blocked. My local Waitrose were blocking the fire exit (that is also a smaller exit/entrance) with all manner of things from signs, temporary barriers, benches and even on occasion physically locking the door or even pulling the shutter down. I reported this to London Fire Brigade who had the Borough “Fire Safety Advisor” get intouch with the shop manager, but there was no sort of any enforcement action, and the shop has repeatedly blocked or locked the exit on a number of occasions since with emails sent to the fire brigade outright ignored.

The Puddock · 25 Feb 2024

dk1 said:
Always makes me chuckle when passengers complain on ‘X’ or to others that their train is unsafe because it’s crowded. Well a typical tube is absolutely packed to the gunwales and hurtling along in a narrow tunnel deep underground.

One evening a few years ago I was travelling home from work on a train which was busy enough for me and maybe half a dozen others to have to stand in the vestibule, with people in all the other vestibules too. One woman spotted my jacket and lanyard, caught my eye and said “I think it’s shocking that the train companies let the trains run with people having to stand like this. It’s so dangerous, you should do something about it.“ I suggested that if she felt unsafe she could get off at the next station and get a later train but it would likely be even busier. Her reply was “No no, it’s all the other people causing the problem. Some of them should be made to get off!”

dk1 · 25 Feb 2024

The Puddock said:
One evening a few years ago I was travelling home from work on a train which was busy enough for me and maybe half a dozen others to have to stand in the vestibule, with people in all the other vestibules too. One woman spotted my jacket and lanyard, caught my eye and said “I think it’s shocking that the train companies let the trains run with people having to stand like this. It’s so dangerous, you should do something about it.“ I suggested that if she felt unsafe she could get off at the next station and get a later train but it would likely be even busier. Her reply was “No no, it’s all the other people causing the problem. Some of them should be made to get off!”

You couldn’t make it up :rolleyes:

43066 · 25 Feb 2024

Mojo said:
In my experience the fire brigade don’t seem too bothered by fire exits being blocked. My local Waitrose were blocking the fire exit (that is also a smaller exit/entrance) with all manner of things from signs, temporary barriers, benches and even on occasion physically locking the door or even pulling the shutter down. I reported this to London Fire Brigade who had the Borough “Fire Safety Advisor” get intouch with the shop manager, but there was no sort of any enforcement action, and the shop has repeatedly blocked or locked the exit on a number of occasions since with emails sent to the fire brigade outright ignored.

Do the fire brigade have enforcement powers, or is this more something that would be dealt with by local councils?

The Puddock said:
One evening a few years ago I was travelling home from work on a train which was busy enough for me and maybe half a dozen others to have to stand in the vestibule, with people in all the other vestibules too. One woman spotted my jacket and lanyard, caught my eye and said “I think it’s shocking that the train companies let the trains run with people having to stand like this. It’s so dangerous, you should do something about it.“ I suggested that if she felt unsafe she could get off at the next station and get a later train but it would likely be even busier. Her reply was “No no, it’s all the other people causing the problem. Some of them should be made to get off!”

. This kind of thing is why it’s better not to travel in uniform and preferable to wear your own coat when you are on duty.

Steve Harris · 25 Feb 2024

Mojo said:
In my experience the fire brigade don’t seem too bothered by fire exits being blocked. My local Waitrose were blocking the fire exit (that is also a smaller exit/entrance) with all manner of things from signs, temporary barriers, benches and even on occasion physically locking the door or even pulling the shutter down. I reported this to London Fire Brigade who had the Borough “Fire Safety Advisor” get intouch with the shop manager, but there was no sort of any enforcement action, and the shop has repeatedly blocked or locked the exit on a number of occasions since with emails sent to the fire brigade outright ignored.

As you point out in your post, it is advise ! It doesn't mean they have to take their advise, but if they don't they could be liable to prosecution.

As an example, my ex employer had it's own Health and Safety department with a H&S "advisor", they wanted to call his title officer, but he declined. The reason was that a H&S officer could be prosecuted (because he is responsible for H&S and thereby must enforce it), whereas an advisor can't be prosecuted because all H&S responsibilities stay with the company.

If you want enforcement action taken may I suggest letting HSE know (who won't necessarily deal with it themselves, but should be able to signpost you to the local H&S department who could deal with the matter).

DanNCL · 25 Feb 2024

There’s another factor that doesn’t really seem to have been considered and that’s the need for someone to enter the train quickly, for example if passenger has a medical emergency and paramedics need to get on the train to provide medical assistance.

That’ll happen a lot more often than a train goes up in flames.

Mojo · 25 Feb 2024

43066 said:
Do the fire brigade have enforcement powers, or is this more something that would be dealt with by local councils?

Steve Harris said:
If you want enforcement action taken may I suggest letting HSE know (who won't necessarily deal with it themselves, but should be able to signpost you to the local H&S department who could deal with the matter).

Under the relavent legislation (Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005) it is the local fire and rescue authority in almost all cases that are the enforcement authority and not the local authority nor the HSE. Local authorities only being responsible for sports grounds and the HSE being responsible for nuclear sites, ships and most construction sites.

greatkingrat · 25 Feb 2024

DanNCL said:
There’s another factor that doesn’t really seem to have been considered and that’s the need for someone to enter the train quickly, for example if passenger has a medical emergency and paramedics need to get on the train to provide medical assistance.

That’ll happen a lot more often than a train goes up in flames.

But in that case the train will presumably be in a platform and passengers can get off to make room for the paramedics.

Steve Harris · 25 Feb 2024

Mojo said:
Under the relavent legislation (Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005) it is the local fire and rescue authority in almost all cases that are the enforcement authority and not the local authority nor the HSE. Local authorities only being responsible for sports grounds and the HSE being responsible for nuclear sites, ships and most construction sites.

In that case I would report the local fire authority to the HSE for not carrying out Health and Safety ! The buck has to stop somewhere (and that will be written in law somewhere).

I shall end my input there, as we are are drifting off topic.

Horizon22 · 25 Feb 2024

I hear lots of announcements and signage regarding “please keep luggage clear of aisles, exits and seats”. But apparently there are too many announcements…

But ultimately busy intercity trains and people with luggage this is inevitable. Heck, TfL run lines with 20+ tph which are full and standing and the LFB don’t have major concerns! There the escape and fire regulations are in place with mitigations which includes station staffing levels and evacuation routes.

Without compulsory seating, this will always be a concern to some extent but train evacuations are incredibly rare and often not time-critical to the same extent. In most instances the train itself is fine but has lost power and slowly load-sheds (electric stock).

dk1 · 25 Feb 2024

greatkingrat said:
But in that case the train will presumably be in a platform and passengers can get off to make room for the paramedics.

Beat me to it.

3141 · 25 Feb 2024

There is a solution to the issue raised by the OP, which is seat regulation so that no-one travels without a seat reservation. But does the possible danger from luggage blocking the exit justify such a change in rail travel arrangements? It reminds me of the calls for seat belts on trains after the Ufton Nervet accident.

dk1 · 25 Feb 2024

3141 said:
There is a solution to the issue raised by the OP, which is seat regulation so that no-one travels without a seat reservation. But does the possible danger from luggage blocking the exit justify such a change in rail travel arrangements? It reminds me of the calls for seat belts on trains after the Ufton Nervet accident.

It’s a big fat NO to both from me.

Evacuation in emergency - escape routes blocked

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