Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western diagram

Plethora · 27 Feb 2024

There's a mad Northern service running directly between Manchester Vic and Wigan NW once-hourly via Lowton Junction. It doesn't stop at intermediate stops, and it's always empty when I see it.

Today it consisted of a 4 carriage 156. Meanwhile Blackburn to Rochdale is formed of a single 150, and it's no doubt going to be full to bursting at some point during its run.

What am I missing? Why allocate scarce resources to such an arbitrary and underutilised run, when Northern already has 4x trains an hour connecting the stations via Swinton and Westhoughton respectively?

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Mcr Warrior · 27 Feb 2024

Is it a 'bounce back' service, so that it can return to Wigan NW quickly, so that it can then form another (busier?) peak hours service inbound to Manchester?

AMD · 27 Feb 2024

It is now quite a busy service, but usually just in one direction - in the morning going to Victoria and the evening back to Wigan. (Albeit I do see a lot of the £3 advance tickets being used).
It's also booked to be a 331, but there's a shortage of units coming off of Allerton at the moment.

berneyarms · 27 Feb 2024

Plethora said:
There's a mad Northern service running directly between Manchester Vic and Wigan NW once-hourly via Lowton Junction. It doesn't stop at intermediate stops, and it's always empty when I see it.

Today it consisted of a 4 carriage 156. Meanwhile Blackburn to Rochdale is formed of a single 150, and it's no doubt going to be full to bursting at some point during its run.

What am I missing? Why allocate scarce resources to such an arbitrary and underutilised run, when Northern already has 4x trains an hour connecting the stations via Swinton and Westhoughton respectively?

What are the loadings like on the inbound services that it operates from Wigan?

geoffk · 27 Feb 2024

AMD said:
It is now quite a busy service, but usually just in one direction - in the morning going to Victoria and the evening back to Wigan. (Albeit I do see a lot of the £3 advance tickets being used).
It's also booked to be a 331, but there's a shortage of units coming off of Allerton at the moment.

Presumably these will call at Golborne station if and when it's built!

The exile · 27 Feb 2024

Plethora said:
There's a mad Northern service running directly between Manchester Vic and Wigan NW once-hourly via Lowton Junction. It doesn't stop at intermediate stops, and it's always empty when I see it.

Today it consisted of a 4 carriage 156. Meanwhile Blackburn to Rochdale is formed of a single 150, and it's no doubt going to be full to bursting at some point during its run.

What am I missing? Why allocate scarce resources to such an arbitrary and underutilised run, when Northern already has 4x trains an hour connecting the stations via Swinton and Westhoughton respectively?

If the rest of its diagram requires 4 cars it’s not necessarily sensible to split. No doubt the 2-car on the Blackburn- Rochdale will also be carrying fresh air at some point. However- as an observer from the South West where we are desperate for units - the provision of 4 cars on some service groups does seem quite generous. Don’t begrudge you them, but there will inevitably be times where one is in the wrong place.

TC7 · 27 Feb 2024

berneyarms said:
What are the loadings like on the inbound services that it operates from Wigan?

From my experience it is busy from Wigan in the mornings but not in the evenings. On the other hand it's quiet from Manchester Victoria in the morning but busy in the evenings. It also gives Eccles an extra train to/from Manchester at peak times but it only stops at Eccles on trains to Manchester in the morning and to Wigan NW in the evening.

berneyarms · 27 Feb 2024

TC7 said:
From my experience it is busy from Wigan in the mornings but not in the evenings. On the other hand it's quiet from Manchester Victoria in the morning but busy in the evenings. It also gives Eccles an extra train to/from Manchester at peak times but it only stops at Eccles on trains to Manchester in the morning and to Wigan NW in the evening.

Well there’s our answer - the non-stop workings are effectively positioning journeys to operate the busy trips in the direction of peak traffic flow.

nw1 · 27 Feb 2024

berneyarms said:
Well there’s our answer - the non-stop workings are effectively positioning journeys to operate the busy trips in the direction of peak traffic flow.

So presumably it doesn't run all day but only during the peak and contra-peak?

berneyarms · 27 Feb 2024

nw1 said:
So presumably it doesn't run all day but only during the peak and contra-peak?

Correct.

TC7 · 27 Feb 2024

berneyarms said:
Correct.

It is 3 trains each way in both the morning peak and evening peak. It was introduced in December 2022, at the same time that Eccles lost its peak time stops on the Leeds to Chester service so it also acts as a replacement service for that as well as giving Wigan an extra peak service. And as was mentioned up thread if Golborne station gets built it will probably end up serving that as well.

rg177 · 27 Feb 2024

This was previously a 319 but seems to be a pair of Sprinters now.

In an ideal world I assume it'd be a 331 now - even if just a three car.

faltskog36abba · 27 Feb 2024

TC7 said:
From my experience it is busy from Wigan in the mornings but not in the evenings. On the other hand it's quiet from Manchester Victoria in the morning but busy in the evenings. It also gives Eccles an extra train to/from Manchester at peak times but it only stops at Eccles on trains to Manchester in the morning and to Wigan NW in the evening.

I got it at 17.19 ? at Wigan and it stopped at Eccles on the evening Manchester bound train.

Plethora · 27 Feb 2024

rg177 said:
This was previously a 319 but seems to be a pair of Sprinters now.

In an ideal world I assume it'd be a 331 now - even if just a three car.

Electric traction would make a lot of sense. But who wants to pay the lease for an expensive EMU if there are cheap DMUs available.

Northern will have to bite the bullet on some EMUs eventually, once Stalybridge to Wigan via Westhoughton is electrified.

nw1 · 27 Feb 2024

Plethora said:
Electric traction would make a lot of sense. But who wants to pay the lease for an expensive EMU if there are cheap DMUs available.

Quite different from the attitude in BR days whereupon they'd go to the (perhaps excessive) trouble of a loco change at Crewe on the Cardiff-Manchester just to ensure that last little bit was under electric traction!

pokemonsuper9 · 27 Feb 2024

rg177 said:
This was previously a 319 but seems to be a pair of Sprinters now.

In an ideal world I assume it'd be a 331 now - even if just a three car.

Typically one diagram is a 331, one is 15x.
Occasionally the 15x is a 769 when Westhoughton is shut.

Hopefully once there's more ex-WMT 323s there'll be no more Sprinters on those fast trains.

td97 · 27 Feb 2024

Plethora said:
Electric traction would make a lot of sense. But who wants to pay the lease for an expensive EMU if there are cheap DMUs available.

Northern will have to bite the bullet on some EMUs eventually, once Stalybridge to Wigan via Westhoughton is electrified.

This is booked as an EMU, but Northern have a shortage of EMUs as the 323s from West Midlands should now all be in service (only 1 out of 17 are). Yet these have not arrived as WMT cannot release further 323s as their direct replacements are late.

As an example of how Northern are so desperate for EMUs, this morning a single 150 was on the peak 0726 Stoke to Manchester all stops (booked 331/0, always full & standing). Passengers were ejected at Macclesfield and told to get the next Avanti so that passengers between Macclesfield and Cheadle Hulme could actually board (incidentally this would have been a wise choice as the Avanti arrived at Piccadilly before the all stops).

Plethora said:
and it's always empty when I see it.

For most of 2023, it suffered dreadful reliability as it was always first to appear on Northern's "cancelled due to a shortage of traincrew" list. Its reliability has markedly improved since the driver overtime agreement began in December 23.
Now that it is trusted by passengers more, it loads very well into and out of Manchester for the peak commuter flows.

Geeves · 27 Feb 2024

It still gets cancelled quite often even with the driver overtime in operation.

At least one of the moves purely does the Wigan Vic work, it spends the middle of the day on Springs Branch. I'm guessing it could be used in an emergencies.

As has been said this is a Burnham special whereby the new station at Golborne already has a train vs building a station and then having the papers print "20 million pound station opens but has no trains"

ThePeakNed · 27 Feb 2024

td97 said:
For most of 2023, it suffered dreadful reliability as it was always first to appear on Northern's "cancelled due to a shortage of traincrew" list. Its reliability has markedly improved since the driver overtime agreement began in December 23.

A combination of this, and the fact that now Golborne is also signed by Manchester Victoria, which for a long time, it wasn't.

AMD · 27 Feb 2024

pokemonsuper9 said:
Typically one diagram is a 331, one is 15x.

Both diagrams are booked as 3 car 331s, but Allerton are usually short at the moment of electric units.

More 323s are due for the June timetable change according to our esteemed leader.....

yorksrob · 28 Feb 2024

So more EMU's withdrawn prematurely then !

Geeves · 28 Feb 2024

ThePeakNed said:
A combination of this, and the fact that now Golborne is also signed by Manchester Victoria, which for a long time, it wasn't.

Its only the guards that sign via Golborne from Vic currently although that may well change

ThePeakNed · 28 Feb 2024

Geeves said:
Its only the guards that sign via Golborne from Vic currently although that may well change

But it still helps having more than just Wigan signing it. That's what I'm saying.

Geeves · 28 Feb 2024

Yeah absolutely! In the not too distant future the rumours are that there will be an all day Stalybridge to Wigan via Eccles and Golborne so they will have to have more drivers signing it!

AL1 · 28 Feb 2024

IIRC this is referred to in the Golbourne station proposal consultation.

norbitonflyer · 28 Feb 2024

nw1 said:
Quite different from the attitude in BR days whereupon they'd go to the (perhaps excessive) trouble of a loco change at Crewe on the Cardiff-Manchester just to ensure that last little bit was under electric traction!

Sometimes such changes are necessary because the diesel is needed to work a different train back south - or even the same one given that it would be trapped at the blocks at Piccadilly.

dalesrail · 28 Feb 2024

Lime Street crews also sign via Golborne. I'm pretty sure they have at least one duty on the WNW - Vic services.

Bow Fell · 28 Feb 2024

They do (drivers and guards) pretty equal share with Wigan, and one job worked by a Victoria guard.

childwallblues · 29 Feb 2024

Plethora said:
Electric traction would make a lot of sense. But who wants to pay the lease for an expensive EMU if there are cheap DMUs available.

Northern will have to bite the bullet on some EMUs eventually, once Stalybridge to Wigan via Westhoughton is electrified.

They will have plenty of 323s then.

Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western diagram

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