No Horsham-Peterborough service Saturday 2nd March

185143 · 2 Mar 2024

Ended up on a 4 car 377 ex Reigate into Victoria earlier from Clapham Junction.

The tube in pre 2020 peaks was less busy. OK, I know that it can't be more than 4 coaches, but I'd guess few others onboard did. An absolute disgrace on both sides of the river.

RailUK Forums

Nicholas Lewis · 2 Mar 2024

Bishopstone said:
I can only say this raises many more questions than it answers!

I’m also unclear why Thameslink can only operate the Horsham-Redhill shuttle once every two hours. This implies one train in service with long layovers - what are the rest of the Horsham drivers and trains doing?

They are running hourly but the should have at least run them to East Croydon as Redhill only has a 4 car service on the Victoria's which are already busy at weekends. This is not the first time we've last minute pulling of services about time GTR got the Avanti treatment in the Commons but wont be from my MP as he is standing down and lost interst.

Magdalia · 2 Mar 2024

700720 said:
Trains do reverse at Platform 1 at Royston

Apart from a few early morning and late evening trains, nothing is booked to use platform 1. Today, according to RTT, nothing is booked into or out of platform 1 between 0607 and 2115.

Yes, from a rail only perspective it is possible to use platform 1, but that creates difficulties for rail/bus interchange which is undesirable at busy times.

JonathanH · 2 Mar 2024

185143 said:
OK, I know that it can't be more than 4 coaches, but I'd guess few others onboard did.

It does show a lack of ability to react to events that the Reigate services weren't cut short at Redhill to allow longer trains to be used.

Steve Harris · 2 Mar 2024

Magdalia said:
Royston is a significant constraint because it does not have a footbridge, unless the new bridge has been opened very recently.

All trains have to reverse in platform 2 because the rail replacement buses use the down side car park. The maximum capacity for that is 3tph so to/from Royston there is 1tph fast to Kings Cross, 1tph to Brighton and 1tph slow to Kings Cross.

I haven't a clue where you get the idea that Royston doesn't have a footbridge, because there has certainly been one there since 1984 (when I first used the station)*. Now, if your talking about lifts, so the footbridge is accessible to all, that's another matter.

*Unless it has been removed since I passed through there last year.

Somewhere · 2 Mar 2024

Peregrine 4903 said:
I suspect the issue is here with them not going to King's Cross is that the control team are short staffed due to sickness so just don't have time to replan the service significantly. I could be wrong here though.

Its not Control's job to replan the service. That's Train Planning's job.
Control's job is to manage the planned service. Control don't have the staff or the time to replan the service. Hence the miniscule service that's running

JonathanH said:
It does show a lack of ability to react to events that the Reigate services weren't cut short at Redhill to allow longer trains to be used.

You also need to consider where are they going to get the longer trains from?

bramling · 2 Mar 2024

Magdalia said:
Apart from a few early morning and late evening trains, nothing is booked to use platform 1. Today, according to RTT, nothing is booked into or out of platform 1 between 0607 and 2115.

Yes, from a rail only perspective it is possible to use platform 1, but that creates difficulties for rail/bus interchange which is undesirable at busy times.

Do all three services need to connect with the buses? But as you suggested earlier, no infrastructure reason why a Letchworth to London service couldn’t be operating. All something of a shambles really, but quite typical of what we have come to expect at weekends.

Also of note, one of the Royston to Brighton diagrams seems to be a 700/0 vice /1. Given the situation today, that really is very remiss.

Steve Harris said:
I haven't a clue where you get the idea that Royston doesn't have a footbridge, because there has certainly been one there since 1984 (when I first used the station)*. Now, if your talking about lifts, so the footbridge is accessible to all, that's another matter.

*Unless it has been removed since I passed through there last year.

The Royston footbridge had been out of use for several years due to structural issues, meaning the only way to get between the platforms was via the road bridge.

My belief is a replacement bridge was commissioned recently, so there *is* a footbridge available now. However I think it is still awaiting lifts to be brought in to use.

Steve Harris · 2 Mar 2024

bramling said:
Do all three services need to connect with the buses? But as you suggested earlier, no infrastructure reason why a Letchworth to London service couldn’t be operating. All something of a shambles really, but quite typical of what we have come to expect at weekends.

Also of note, one of the Royston to Brighton diagrams seems to be a 700/0 vice /1. Given the situation today, that really is very remiss.

The Royston footbridge had been out of use for several years due to structural issues, meaning the only way to get between the platforms was via the road bridge.

My belief is a replacement bridge was commissioned recently, so there *is* a footbridge available now. However I think it is still awaiting lifts to be brought in to use.

Thanx for the update Re the bridge.

Class 170101 · 2 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
Its not Control's job to replan the service. That's Train Planning's job.
Control's job is to manage the planned service. Control don't have the staff or the time to replan the service. Hence the miniscule service that's running

Unless it falls over the weekend / out of hours then it is upto control.

Somewhere · 2 Mar 2024

Class 170101 said:
Unless it falls over the weekend / out of hours then it is upto control.

All Control will do is manage the planned service, which will usually mean taking trains out.
There is no way Control are going to do several weeks work in a few hours

Magdalia · 2 Mar 2024

bramling said:
Do all three services need to connect with the buses?

Yes.

bramling said:
The Royston footbridge had been out of use for several years due to structural issues

I resumed travelling after the pandemic in September 2021 and it was already closed then.

bramling said:
the only way to get between the platforms was via the road bridge.

This route is notionally step free but the paths are narrow and the slope on the up side is very steep, much steeper than, for example, the underpass ramps at Ely. It is not very suitable for wheelie suitcases.

Urban Gateline · 2 Mar 2024

This is nothing new unfortunately, glad I don't live near Sandy anymore as the service was always dire on weekends and holiday periods, the fact they can't even run PBO-KGX is quite shameful, times I used to use this route and routinely had to leave 30mins or 1hr early for work because of cancellations due to crew shortage, it's like a second class citizen compared to the Cambridge route which seem to have far fewer such issues and a more frequent service. (and don't get me started on why it's only an hourly Sunday service PBO-KGX just laughable when others like Bedford to St Pancras have 4 Thameslink per hour!!

bramling · 2 Mar 2024

Magdalia said:
Yes.

I resumed travelling after the pandemic in September 2021 and it was already closed then.

This route is notionally step free but the paths are narrow and the slope on the up side is very steep, much steeper than, for example, the underpass ramps at Ely. It is not very suitable for wheelie suitcases.

I’m not convinced that essentially the entire GN outer suburban service should be geared around providing seamless connection to a bus service at Royston, especially as the stopping service is largely used by people making journeys that don’t involve Cambridge.

If the prospect of people turning up at Royston and having to change sides is *that* much of an issue, then terminate the trains somewhere else - even if they then run empty to Royston to reverse.

Bikeman78 · 2 Mar 2024

Javelin_55 said:
I believe all Horsham drivers are supposed to sign the diversion, so the planning team had no reason to think there was an issue. It's only when the diagrams are printed and issued the previous day and the booked drivers start phoning in one by one to say they don't have the route knowledge that Control realise the extent of the problem and - after exhausting all other options - cut their losses and cancel the service.

This is just mind blowing. How can a railway company not know what routes its drivers sign? Or what engineering works are coming up?

dk1 said:
But does that not have an impact on other ECML fast services?

LNER is running a reduced service today. Only two, sometimes three trains per hour. Hard to see why the GTR trains from Peterborough could not run to King's Cross once an hour. They already have paths as far as Finsbury Park.

Somewhere said:
Its not Control's job to replan the service. That's Train Planning's job.
Control's job is to manage the planned service. Control don't have the staff or the time to replan the service. Hence the miniscule service that's running

If this attitude exists throughout GTR then it explains a lot!

Nicholas Lewis · 2 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
This is just mind blowing. How can a railway company not know what routes its drivers sign? Or what engineering works are coming up?

It is but shows a disconnect internally in GTR where the planning teams are working to rules of the route that resourcing should be maintaining but haven't for whatever reason although wouldn't be surprised that it was limited to a few turns and they took draconian action rather than have an erratic service through the day. Mind you why they didn't run to Bedford which is beyond me as those crews have been working the "Hills" route for decades.

Bikeman78 said:
LNER is running a reduced service today. Only two, sometimes three trains per hour. Hard to see why the GTR trains from Peterborough could not run to King's Cross once an hour. They already have paths as far as Finsbury Park.

If this attitude exists throughout GTR then it explains a lot!

They don't need to try as they just send the bill to DafT who haven't got the nous to question anything

JonathanH · 2 Mar 2024

Nicholas Lewis said:
Mind you why they didn't run to Bedford which is beyond me as those crews have been working the "Hills" route for decades.

Standard practice is to cull the Bedford to Redhill corridor services when the route via Tulse Hill is being used, as the Bedford to Brighton services still run, and there are only so many paths that way.

jdp30 · 2 Mar 2024

Bishopstone said:
I’m surprised they’re not putting Stevenage calls into the ‘Cambridge’ fasts, originating at Royston. Do the buses from Cambridge really fill these trains to capacity at Royston?

I was at King's Cross around 10 this morning, and I was surprised how busy one of those Royston only trains was - So the buses do seem capable of filling it.

DynamicSpirit · 2 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
You also need to consider where are they going to get the longer trains from?

Well considering how many trains have been cancelled, you'd think there would be a few trainsets around waiting for something to do

Somewhere · 2 Mar 2024

DynamicSpirit said:
Well considering how many trains have been cancelled, you'd think there would be a few trainsets around waiting for something to do

Southern drivers don't sign 700's

Magdalia · 2 Mar 2024

bramling said:
I’m not convinced that essentially the entire GN outer suburban service should be geared around providing seamless connection to a bus service at Royston

Most of the passengers at Royston will be transferring to and from the buses.

bramling said:
the stopping service is largely used by people making journeys that don’t involve Cambridge.

Once these are on the branch much of the traffic is to/from Cambridge.

bramling said:
If the prospect of people turning up at Royston and having to change sides is *that* much of an issue, then terminate the trains somewhere else - even if they then run empty to Royston to reverse.

There is no need to run empty to or from Royston, trains can reverse at Letchworth. As I've already said, I can't see why the Kings Cross-Letchworth stoppers have not been running today.

Somewhere · 2 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
If this attitude exists throughout GTR then it explains a lot!

I don't know what GTR's attitude is, but who is going to do Control's job if Control are busy trying to replan a service? Or more likely, there isn't physically enough time to actually do the replanning. It takes weeks.
And likely it would be in breech of union agreements about altered rosters anyway

frediculous · 3 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
I don't know what GTR's attitude is, but who is going to do Control's job if Control are busy trying to replan a service? Or more likely, there isn't physically enough time to actually do the replanning. It takes weeks.
And likely it would be in breech of union agreements about altered rosters anyway

Why would it take weeks when 2 or 3 weeks ago there was also engineering works at Royston. Just reuse what was done then (except this time actually run Peterborough - Kings Cross services)

Peregrine 4903 · 3 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
Its not Control's job to replan the service. That's Train Planning's job.
Control's job is to manage the planned service. Control don't have the staff or the time to replan the service. Hence the miniscule service that's running

You also need to consider where are they going to get the longer trains from?

I'm well aware of that. Planning will have planned to the train crew and resources they thought were available at the time.

frediculous said:
Why would it take weeks when 2 or 3 weeks ago there was also engineering works at Royston. Just reuse what was done then (except this time actually run Peterborough - Kings Cross services)

That's a huge re work job on the train crew side and also quite big on the timings and stock side. Can't just do replanning like that in a day or a couple days a week or two out.

There is a reason why things like this are planned months in advance.

Farningham · 3 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
Southern drivers don't sign 700's

No London Bridge-Epsom or Victoria-London Bridge services running. Means spare 377s I suggest.

Somewhere · 3 Mar 2024

Farningham said:
No London Bridge-Epsom or Victoria-London Bridge services running. Means spare 377s I suggest.

I suggest there are no spare 377s, as mileage is so tight if you use them on Saturday, there won't be enough mileage left in them for Monday morning
Every department on the railway depends upon every other department doing their job properly. If operations don't do their job properly and keep drivers' routes up to date, this is what happens. Other departments don't have the flexibility and resources to provide contingency for them. Ergo trains get cancelled

Nicholas Lewis · 3 Mar 2024

JonathanH said:
Standard practice is to cull the Bedford to Redhill corridor services when the route via Tulse Hill is being used, as the Bedford to Brighton services still run, and there are only so many paths that way.

Same block is still on today and they are running a 2tph service via that route perfectly satisfactorily so why did they choose Peterborough yesterday is beyond me. Bedford/Bridges/Brighton crews sign throughout but Horsham and Peterborough drivers only ever work to/from Finsbury Park so your into multi crewing straight away and thats always been a recipe for a fiasco on this route witness what happens whenever there is service perturbation it rapidly falls apart.

JonathanH · 3 Mar 2024

Nicholas Lewis said:
Same block is still on today and they are running a 2tph service via that route perfectly satisfactorily so why did they choose Peterborough yesterday is beyond me. Bedford/Bridges/Brighton crews sign throughout but Horsham and Peterborough drivers only ever work to/from Finsbury Park so your into multi crewing straight away and thats always been a recipe for a fiasco on this route witness what happens whenever there is service perturbation it rapidly falls apart.

Do Peterborough drivers sign Herne Hill siding?

Nicholas Lewis · 3 Mar 2024

JonathanH said:
Do Peterborough drivers sign Herne Hill siding?

I don't know for sure but as regular user of the Peterborough-Horsham service ive never been on one that hasn't changed drivers at Finsbury Park.

Bikeman78 · 3 Mar 2024

Somewhere said:
I don't know what GTR's attitude is, but who is going to do Control's job if Control are busy trying to replan a service? Or more likely, there isn't physically enough time to actually do the replanning. It takes weeks.
And likely it would be in breech of union agreements about altered rosters anyway

What does control do when there is a line blockage on the day? They just have to deal with it. If the train plan does not work and it is not control's job to deal with it, then whose job is it? The bigger problem is that GTR seems to have no clue about how many drivers it has or what routes they sign.

Steve Harris · 3 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
The bigger problem is that GTR seems to have no clue about how many drivers it has or what routes they sign.

Isn't that the same issue they had when they had the infamous timetable meltdown in 2018 ??

No Horsham-Peterborough service Saturday 2nd March

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