Thamelink only valid on Gatwick Express train from London Bridge to Hove?

yorkie · 13 Mar 2024

43066 said:
That’s a view, and it might even be the correct one, but nobody will know for sure until the case is resolved. It also may well make no difference to the competition law question.

This particular part, that GTR is the operator, is not a view and is fact.

Edit: From the TSA (Vol 2; Schedule 1):

SCHEDULE 1 - THE OPERATORS

Name of Operator
Govia Thameslink Railway Limited

Registered Number
07934306

Registered Office
3rd Floor,
41-51 Grey Street,
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 6EE

The part that is a view is whether or not train companies are allowed to have brand restrictions or not; I believe the relevant legislation, conditions and framework are clear on this, but if others wish to disagree, then that is their choice, and you are right the cout decision should settle that.

43066 said:
GTR certainly won’t be one entity, it’ll be a corporate group comprised of various different entities. I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, but these questions are complex, may cost many hundreds of thousands of pounds to even get a legal opinion on, and even then that view wont be a definitive statement of the position!

I can assure you GTR is an incorporated entity; the corporate group is Govia:

GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED

Company number 07934306
Follow this company File for this company

Company Overview for GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED (07934306)
Filing history for GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED (07934306)
People for GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY LIMITED (07934306)
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Registered office address
3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street, Newcastle Upon Tyne, NE1 6EE

Company status
Active

Company type
Private limited Company

Incorporated on
2 February 2012

Each brand is a trading name of GTR.

GTR is owned by Govia, which is a partnership between the Go-Ahead Group and Keolis; this may be what you are thinking of when you refer to a "coroprate group".

43066 said:
You can’t reasonably expect ticket office staff to do anymore than parrot their employer’s line - and indeed if they did otherwise they’d find themselves being sacked sooner or later. They aren’t competition law experts, and they’re unlikely even to be aware of the case.

I do expect ticket office staff to adhere to contract law, consumer law, the NRCoT and any other relevant legislation/frameworks.

The liability, when staff do not act correctly, is with the employer.

43066 said:
However they are likely to be able to provide advice on the cheapest ticketing options for those who are unfamiliar with railway ticketing, and have no interest in the subject, which is probably 99% of railway users. Most travellers will simply accept the company line that Gatwick Express is a separate premium service, which they have to pay more to use, and won’t see any issue with that.

I don't agree, but it's not relevant to the matter under debate.

RailUK Forums

AlbertBeale · 13 Mar 2024

AlbertBeale said:
"Thameslink only" tickets (putting aside the argument that restriction by brand, as opposed to restriction by TOC [GX and Southern are part of same company as Thameslink] isn't valid anyway) are intended only for Thameslink-branded trains. However, there are other London-Brighton tickets which are the same lower price which are restricted by only being valid to/from T/L stations at the London end - ie from any of St P, Farringdon, City T/L, Blackfriars, London Bridge. Providing you're en route to/from those places (ie not, if north of East Croydon, on the Victoria route) then they're fully as usable as any higher-price London-Brighton ticket. Hence, once you're south of London you can definitively use GX or Southern trains, and you can avail yourself of the usual rule that you can go to Brighton via Hove, and of course you can break your journey there.

So if the problem is that you want to use a London-Brighton ticket to get to Hove (because cheaper tickets are available to Brighton on account of there being T/L-only tickets?) but the brand of train (T/L) you have a ticket for doesn't go to Hove any more [is that it??], then don't get a ticket which is [allegedly] restricted by brand, but get an equally cheaper one to/from Thameslink stations (which has no other restriction). Since it seems that you want to go to/from London Bridge anyway, then this should do the trick for you.

JackFlash said:
Thank you for looking at this. You seem to know the system very well.

However, I do not believe there is a cheaper ticket. My exact situation is that I now start my journey into work at Brighton getting the first off peak ticket to London Bridge. A return costs £22.70. I have used the return on occasion (about once a week if it is running) to get the 17.33 from LBG to Hove which is run by Gatwick Express. There are no direct trains anymore from Hove to LBG in the morning since after the pandemic.

The 17.33 is the only direct one now running but it is extremely temperamental and often cancelled. Hence if I bought a more expensive ticket, it would be wasted. Ticket would be £35 approx. In addition, theee would be other T/L around that time (always busy and you have to stand up) to Brighton so I could not claim delay repay

On that note, I did get awarded 70 pence when I claimed for a 15 min delay of the 17.33 which made me think my ticket was valid on this train.

Hove is a T/L station and tickets are accepted there when getting off the train.

Unless there are any other options?

To repeat: there are two equally cheap [compared with a ticket with no restrictions at all, and valid to all south London termini] tickets between Brighton and London Bridge ... the "Thameslink route" ticket (which purports to be only valid on T/L trains - though as Yorkie explains that's not ultimately enforceable); and the "Thameslink destinations" ticket (valid to London Bridge and to stations onwards to St P, and marked "not Underground" - which is relevant if you are continuing across to St P). You've been getting the former; you need to get the latter if you want an easy life. With this ticket you could use any of the trains you mention: no-one will question which colour train you're on (providing, at the London end, you're on a reasonable route between East Croydon and London Bridge [or Blackfriars], and not on a route to Victoria); and you can use a Hove-London train if you want, since these Brighton-London tickets are valid via Hove. Easy.

thedbdiboy · 13 Mar 2024

yorkie said:
The part that is a view is whether or not train companies are allowed to have brand restrictions or not; I believe the relevant legislation, conditions and framework are clear on this, but if others wish to disagree, then that is their choice, and you are right the cout decision should settle that.

The legislation says absolutely nothing about brand restrictions. The issue relates solely to the phrasing of the passenger contract in various iterations of the NRCoC/NRCoT. Even the argument about who can set dedicated permanent fares in the TSA is irrelevant as the TSA itself is a multi-party contract between the operators and the 'Authority' (originally OPRAF; now the DfT) so no passenger has any right of recourse as they are not party to the TSA itself, only to the NRCoT conditions under which a ticket was purchased.

The issue arises only because of the way in which the restriction has continued to be enforced. For example, had GTR in 2007 wished to continue with lower fares for Thameslink trains by replacing the 'route Thameslink' fares with fares restricted by validity code to those services at the times when a Thameslink branded service operated, there would have been absolutely no basis for a case. But they didn't, hence the long drawn out legal challenges, which as you say, the courts will (eventually) rule on.

yorkie · 13 Mar 2024

thedbdiboy said:
The legislation says absolutely nothing about brand restrictions. The issue relates solely to the phrasing of the passenger contract in various iterations of the NRCoC/NRCoT. Even the argument about who can set dedicated permanent fares in the TSA is irrelevant as the TSA itself is a multi-party contract between the operators and the 'Authority' (originally OPRAF; now the DfT) so no passenger has any right of recourse as they are not party to the TSA itself, only to the NRCoT conditions under which a ticket was purchased.

The issue arises only because of the way in which the restriction has continued to be enforced. For example, had GTR in 2007 wished to continue with lower fares for Thameslink trains by replacing the 'route Thameslink' fares with fares restricted by validity code to those services at the times when a Thameslink branded service operated, there would have been absolutely no basis for a case. But they didn't, hence the long drawn out legal challenges, which as you say, the courts will (eventually) rule on.

I find this post disappointing and disingenuous.

Your analysis of the situation regarding the TSA is your opinion which I am not convinced by (and, in any case, even if this is technically true, it has no bearing on the actual case, whatsoever), while your view that they could have listed every Thameslink departure in the restriction code of every ticket is... well, unrealistic and fanciful at best. No operator has ever done anything like this, and for good reason; even TOCs - who often push the boundaries of what is acceptable - know it is a step too far.

I am not prepared to debate it further; ultimately we will get a ruling; I just hope the court makes the correct decision.

MrJeeves · 13 Mar 2024

To me the main potential claim that could be put forward is that the "Thameslink Only" restriction is actually a geographical one, stating that the tickets can only be used on routes where Thameslink trains operate. This is something that has been discussed on the forum before (or maybe it was the other way around with "SOUTHERN ONLY"?).

Ironically, this still wouldn't prevent use to London Victoria due to the one train per day from Sevenoaks which terminates there around 0030, but it would render use via Clapham Junction impossible, essentially prohibiting usage into the station.

It would be interesting to pursue this argument considering that's not how the restriction has ever been presented or interpreted by staff, in the data, and I'd hope that argument would fall over as a result.

thedbdiboy · 13 Mar 2024

The bit about the legislation is a factual observation.

The rest is indeed an opinion - it is quite normal to share different opinions of a public forum. There is no expectation that everyone will agree.

I think we all await the court decision with interest.

MrJeeves · 13 Mar 2024

thedbdiboy said:
I think we all await the court decision with interest.

Quite!

yorkie · 13 Mar 2024

MrJeeves said:
To me the main potential claim that could be put forward is that the "Thameslink Only" restriction is actually a geographical one, stating that the tickets can only be used on routes where Thameslink trains operate. This is something that has been discussed on the forum before (or maybe it was the other way around with "SOUTHERN ONLY"?).

Ironically, this still wouldn't prevent use to London Victoria due to the one train per day from Sevenoaks which terminates there around 0030, but it would render use via Clapham Junction impossible, essentially prohibiting usage into the station.

It would be interesting to pursue this argument considering that's not how the restriction has ever been presented or interpreted by staff, in the data, and I'd hope that argument would fall over as a result.

Even GTR/DfT are not daft enough to try that, either.

furlong · 14 Mar 2024

thedbdiboy said:
The legislation says absolutely nothing about brand restrictions. The issue relates solely to the phrasing of the passenger contract in various iterations of the NRCoC/NRCoT. Even the argument about who can set dedicated permanent fares in the TSA is irrelevant as the TSA itself is a multi-party contract between the operators and the 'Authority' (originally OPRAF; now the DfT) so no passenger has any right of recourse as they are not party to the TSA itself, only to the NRCoT conditions under which a ticket was purchased.

The issue arises only because of the way in which the restriction has continued to be enforced. For example, had GTR in 2007 wished to continue with lower fares for Thameslink trains by replacing the 'route Thameslink' fares with fares restricted by validity code to those services at the times when a Thameslink branded service operated, there would have been absolutely no basis for a case. But they didn't, hence the long drawn out legal challenges, which as you say, the courts will (eventually) rule on.

I think the wider point is that it was entirely within the gift of government to provide a mechanism that enabled the arrangements to continue if that was the desire while avoiding any questions of legality but instead we've ended up in this mess and left it to the courts to untangle it all. I think the underlying justification for the challenge is that many of the differences that used to justify premium branding got eliminated over time as the services got increasingly integrated operationally.

infobleep · 14 Mar 2024

thedbdiboy said:
The bit about the legislation is a factual observation.

The rest is indeed an opinion - it is quite normal to share different opinions of a public forum. There is no expectation that everyone will agree.

I think we all await the court decision with interest.

I also look forward to the statements released after the court decision. Be interesting to see if any of them are bland.

I always remember the time Nick Ferrari ripped up a statement on LBC because it was so bland. Probably a government one but I forget exactly what and from whome now.

I could imagine a bland GTR press release if they lost. Not sure about the other side though if they lost. I personally don't want them to lose.

MrJeeves · 14 Mar 2024

infobleep said:
I could imagine a bland GTR press release if they lost. Not sure about the other side though if they lost. I personally don't want them to lose.

Quite honestly, I don't particularly mind either way. I don't want my Thameslink Only tickets to go up in price, but I also want the flexibility of "any brand"!

I get I can't eat my cake and have it too, though.

What I do think is unfair is GTR being able to impose these restrictions while other operators cannot, hence my preference not being towards GTR.

AlbertBeale · 14 Mar 2024

MrJeeves said:
To me the main potential claim that could be put forward is that the "Thameslink Only" restriction is actually a geographical one, stating that the tickets can only be used on routes where Thameslink trains operate. This is something that has been discussed on the forum before (or maybe it was the other way around with "SOUTHERN ONLY"?).

Ironically, this still wouldn't prevent use to London Victoria due to the one train per day from Sevenoaks which terminates there around 0030, but it would render use via Clapham Junction impossible, essentially prohibiting usage into the station.

It would be interesting to pursue this argument considering that's not how the restriction has ever been presented or interpreted by staff, in the data, and I'd hope that argument would fall over as a result.

Of course the other, equally cheap, ticket - to a T/L destination, rather than using a T/L train/route - is geographical in effect, being valid only (by a relevant/sensible route) to certain London stations. The disputed cheap ticket could presumably have been put more or less in place - rather than in the current legally doubtful way, or by listing all the train times or something silly like that - by a valid route restriction (effectively making London Bridge tickets cheaper than ones valid at other termini). Though that would still have allowed Southern trains - as well as T/L ones - from London Bridge of course.

JackFlash · 14 Mar 2024

I do get what you’re saying however on the Thameslink app which is where I buy my e tickets, I have looked at the detail under info and selected ‘

AlbertBeale said:
To repeat: there are two equally cheap [compared with a ticket with no restrictions at all, and valid to all south London termini] tickets between Brighton and London Bridge ... the "Thameslink route" ticket (which purports to be only valid on T/L trains - though as Yorkie explains that's not ultimately enforceable); and the "Thameslink destinations" ticket (valid to London Bridge and to stations onwards to St P, and marked "not Underground" - which is relevant if you are continuing across to St P). You've been getting the former; you need to get the latter if you want an easy life. With this ticket you could use any of the trains you mention: no-one will question which colour train you're on (providing, at the London end, you're on a reasonable route between East Croydon and London Bridge [or Blackfriars], and not on a route to Victoria); and you can use a Hove-London train if you want, since these Brighton-London tickets are valid via Hove. Easy.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I do get what you are saying however it is a lottery as to which ticket is issued on the Thameslink app where I purchase my e tickets. This morning I carefully looked at the ‘info’ and it stated ‘not underground’ however issued a Thameslink only ticket. I’ll keep trying different ticket versions e.g slightly different times and destinations to see if there is a consistent one which issues a ‘not Underground’ ticket.

thedbdiboy · 14 Mar 2024

furlong said:
I think the wider point is that it was entirely within the gift of government to provide a mechanism that enabled the arrangements to continue if that was the desire while avoiding any questions of legality but instead we've ended up in this mess and left it to the courts to untangle it all. I think the underlying justification for the challenge is that many of the differences that used to justify premium branding got eliminated over time as the services got increasingly integrated operationally.

Thank you, yes, that was exactly the point

JackFlash said:
I do get what you’re saying however on the Thameslink app which is where I buy my e tickets, I have looked at the detail under info and selected ‘

Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I do get what you are saying however it is a lottery as to which ticket is issued on the Thameslink app where I purchase my e tickets. This morning I carefully looked at the ‘info’ and it stated ‘not underground’ however issued a Thameslink only ticket. I’ll keep trying different ticket versions e.g slightly different times and destinations to see if there is a consistent one which issues a ‘not Underground’ ticket.

Which gets to the heart of the issue - despite all the Gatwick/Brighton line fares having been under the control of a single operator since 2007, in an arrangement where Government takes the revenue risk (long before that was the case for other DfT franchises), the fare structure on that route is still an excessively complex mess that the public is supposed to navigate.

AlbertBeale · 14 Mar 2024

JackFlash said:
Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I do get what you are saying however it is a lottery as to which ticket is issued on the Thameslink app where I purchase my e tickets. This morning I carefully looked at the ‘info’ and it stated ‘not underground’ however issued a Thameslink only ticket. I’ll keep trying different ticket versions e.g slightly different times and destinations to see if there is a consistent one which issues a ‘not Underground’ ticket.

You could always do what I do and buy your London-Brighton tickets from a ticket office (or a machine, providing it gives the right option!)... Or buy from an online source that properly distinguishes the two different tickets.

thedbdiboy said:
Which gets to the heart of the issue - despite all the Gatwick/Brighton line fares having been under the control of a single operator since 2007, in an arrangement where Government takes the revenue risk (long before that was the case for other DfT franchises), the fare structure on that route is still an excessively complex mess that the public is supposed to navigate.

Yes - if even the Thameslink app doesn't "know" what's going on.... However, such a "confusion" when T/L itself is selling you the ticket is, by coincidence presumably, financially valuable [at least on paper, even if it all ends up with the DfT anyway now], since you're tied to their colour of train and hence they don't have to share revenue with "other companies" running on that line.

pelli · 14 Mar 2024

JackFlash said:
I do get what you are saying however it is a lottery as to which ticket is issued on the Thameslink app where I purchase my e tickets. This morning I carefully looked at the ‘info’ and it stated ‘not underground’ however issued a Thameslink only ticket. I’ll keep trying different ticket versions e.g slightly different times and destinations to see if there is a consistent one which issues a ‘not Underground’ ticket.

Perhaps if you search your journey with a destination of London St Pancras, despite having no intention of going that far, that'll guarantee that the app sells you the "London Thameslink / Route Not Underground" ticket rather than the "London Terminals / Route Thameslink Only" ticket (as the latter is not valid to STP)?

AlbertBeale · 14 Mar 2024

pelli said:
Perhaps if you search your journey with a destination of London St Pancras, despite having no intention of going that far, that'll guarantee that the app sells you the "London Thameslink / Route Not Underground" ticket rather than the "London Terminals / Route Thameslink Only" ticket (as the latter is not valid to STP)?

Of course - brilliant! (I didn't think of that - my excuse is that I'm usually getting the returns starting from the London end...)

sheff1 · 14 Mar 2024

JackFlash said:
Thank you again for taking the time to reply. I do get what you are saying however it is a lottery as to which ticket is issued on the Thameslink app where I purchase my e tickets. This morning I carefully looked at the ‘info’ and it stated ‘not underground’ however issued a Thameslink only ticket. I’ll keep trying different ticket versions e.g slightly different times and destinations to see if there is a consistent one which issues a ‘not Underground’ ticket.

If that is what the Thameslink app does I suggest buying your tickets from a different source which actually sells what you ask for.
You might also want to take screenshots of the Thameslink app booking process and complain to Thameslink about their app.

If, for some reason, you wish to continue to use the Thameslink app, the suggestion in post #46 is probably the answer.

JackFlash · 18 Mar 2024

pelli said:
Perhaps if you search your journey with a destination of London St Pancras, despite having no intention of going that far, that'll guarantee that the app sells you the "London Thameslink / Route Not Underground" ticket rather than the "London Terminals / Route Thameslink Only" ticket (as the latter is not valid to STP)?

Figured it I think. Bought ticket to London Farringdon and states ‘not underground’ but does not state ‘Thameslink only’. Only issue is, it creates code ‘57’ when going though barriers at London Bridge. So I have to seek assistance

Doctor Fegg · 18 Mar 2024

yorkie said:
your view that they could have listed every Thameslink departure in the restriction code of every ticket is... well, unrealistic and fanciful at best. No operator has ever done anything like this

It's not that far off what FGW did. When evening peak restrictions came in out of Paddington, essentially they enumerated the ex-Great Western Trains services by departure time, while leaving the ex-Thames Trains services exempt.

The situation has evolved over the years as the two franchises have melded, and most recently as stopping services have been transferred to the Elizabeth Line. It's not as clear cut as it once was - so, for example, the restrictions on (for example) this Reading ticket have acquired the Didcot semi-fasts, which are inherited from Thames rather than from GWT. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

yorkie · 18 Mar 2024

Doctor Fegg said:
It's not that far off what FGW did...

It is actually very far off!

GWR did this for peak departures, with Off Peak fares. It would have been absolutely fine for GTR to include restrictions for relevant Off Peak fares are not valid on trains that run non-stop from London to Gatwick at 'peak' times.

At no point did GWR attempt to restrict Off Peak fares for the entire day (with a huge list of barred services 24/7); nor at any point did GWR attempt to impose restrictions on Anytime fares, which by definition are valid at any time.

Doctor Fegg said:
When evening peak restrictions came in out of Paddington, essentially they enumerated the ex-Great Western Trains services by departure time, while leaving the ex-Thames Trains services exempt.

This only applied to Off Peak fares, at off peak times, and was not in any way an attempt at brand-specific pricing.

Doctor Fegg said:
The situation has evolved over the years as the two franchises have melded, and most recently as stopping services have been transferred to the Elizabeth Line. It's not as clear cut as it once was - so, for example, the restrictions on (for example) this Reading ticket have acquired the Didcot semi-fasts, which are inherited from Thames rather than from GWT. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=PAD&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Again, it's not comparable to the suggestion mooted here.

Thamelink only valid on Gatwick Express train from London Bridge to Hove?

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