I thought the basis of the case was that GTR are (allegedly) abusing a dominant market position?
Yes, by having brand-specific pricing contrary to the relevant legislation/conditions/framework, which is distorting the market.
Gatwick Express has long been (and AIUI continues to be) a completely separate operator in terms of employment of traincrew, stock allocations etc.
It is not a separate operator; the operator is Govia Thameslink Railway.
Operational matters are not relevant to this case, but if you want to look at comparisons, Northern operates in a manner that is more like two separate TOCs than GTR does! There are numerous other examples, with EMR and XC having levels of separation between parts of their business that were previously separate TOCs.
so it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine they might validly argue that it’s also a different operator for ticketing purposes
They appear to have given up that argument, which tells you all you need to know about the validity of it.
, and no doubt each brand (or operator) will be held by different entities within the GTR corporate group.
GTR is the entity.
Different operators could still be held to be collectively abusing a dominant position, so this analysis certainly wouldn’t be fatal to the competition law claim.
If you want to understand it better, you could read the link provided in the original thread.
While I can't condone anyone trying to beat the system by being on the wrong TOC at the wrong time and place, it's so darned difficult to get it right. For pax travelling regularly I know a saving of £3-4/trip adds up to a considerable amount, but also why the heck does it have to be so complicated? Can't we just reduce the number of options and drop the need to be on a specific TOC??
For Brighton/Gatwick-London, there is only one TOC (notwithstanding that for small parts of the journey you could be on GWR/SWR/SE).
This is part of the reason so many objected to ticket office closures; it’s useful having someone who can explain it/find the cheapest option!
Sadly misinformation from ticket offices, on this particular matter at least, on this line, is going to be very much the norm.
This is part of the reason so many objected to ticket office closures; it’s useful having someone who can explain it/find the cheapest option! For most non-enthusiast type people railway ticketing is utterly confusing, soul crushingly boring, and far too tedious a subject to spend any time researching.
Careful what you wish for. This will likely lead to a smaller range of (guaranteed to be more expensive) options!
Yes the cheapest fares will go up, but the most expensive fares would have to come down, such as the Gatwick to London premium fare (even the non-premium fare is charged at a significant premium over the cost of "splitting"!)
We want people to get on the trains, yes?
No, the DfT does not want too many people on trains as this means increased costs, but this is a discussion for another thread (indeed it has cropped up elsewhere numerous times)
Thanks, it's quite a difference but if "simpler fares" are to work and be popular, they have to be towards the cheapest fare and not the most expensive!
It doesn't work like that; I refer you to the LNER threads as it's all been discussed there, it' not for this thread.#
See:
LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance. From...
www.railforums.co.uk
We have had a number of discussions recently about LNER fare policy. The London - Newcastle / Edinburgh trail seems to have very few winners. Then the policy of not selling tickets to allow people to stand on their services is undesirable. This is a concern to me. I will of course buy the...
www.railforums.co.uk
We visit family in Peterborough maybe 4 times a year, travelling by train from Bempton. We are going again in a couple of weeks, Saturday 19th for the day, and there are no advance tickets available for Bempton - Peterborough that day. I am not totally surprised, middle of August, weekend etc...
www.railforums.co.uk
Hi all, New here and hoping the community can help provide an answer. We're all dismayed with LNER's proposals, but having lived happily in the Netherlands for three years I always wonder...what's to stop us having a nationwide role out of OV / contactless? It works in London, so why not UK /...
www.railforums.co.uk
(and there are several more!)
What's interesting to me, and I don't know if I've just been lucky, but every single time I've travelled on Thameslink no-one's been round to check the ticket, so I could have one valid only on another TOC (the barriers don't differentiate) - do Southern and Gatwick Express check regularly, especially during the peak?
GTR have on board supervisors on most (if not all) of their "GX" branded trains and I think most or at least some of the "mainline" trains on the Brighton Mainline which are branded "Southern". But not on their Thameslink branded trains; if you see staff checking tickets on Thameslink branded trains, that will be a revenue inspector/officer.
To add to the complexity - Thameslink are putting different information in exactly the same ticket. So last Friday 8th March, I bought my usual return ticket to London (includes all Thameslink terminals) for £22.70 and under route it stated ‘Thameslink only’ which the conductor tried to hand me on. Today, the same ticket states ‘not underground’. So I am inclined to believe the 17.33 from LBG, although a red Gatwick express train operated by southern (correct me if I am wrong) is now valid with this ticket as it does not state ‘Thameslink only’.
GTR have tickets, at the same price, to either "London Thameslink" routed "Not underground" (which - at least ostensibly - denies travel via Victoria) or alternatively to "London Terminals" routed "Thameslink Only" (which is arguably valid into Victoria, on any train operated by Govia Thameslink, but the company doesn't see it that way!)
“We” on this forum, as collection of enthusiasts and staff, might. The government (via the DfT) have a different agenda; it won’t have escaped their notice that many trains are severely overcrowded, despite fares increasing year on year, and they would rather increase prices in order to raise revenue and control demand, and run fewer services to reduce costs. Simplification is a disarming sound bite they can use to justify this.
Not my idea of a sensible or responsible approach, but it’s the one currently being adopted, and one which your suggested approach will only further enable.
This is absolutely true, in my opinion.