Thamelink only valid on Gatwick Express train from London Bridge to Hove?

[JackFlash]

Hey. I wondered if you kind people could give me the evidence to prove my ticket (Thamelink only) London Bridge to Brighton is valid on Southern Gatwick Express (nothing to do with Gatwick) is valid instead to Hove?

The ticket I have has always been accepted by conductors on the train for years and is much cheaper. It also goes through the Hove station as it is a Thameslink station.

However, this evening there was an inspector on the 17.33 train to Hove (final destination Littlehampton) who was raising his voice, patronising and intimidating. I argued that they’d stopped direct trains after the pandemic without consultation to Hove (when it did get busy) and this was the only one I got In the evening.

My friends were with me so I had witnesses that the has previously been checked by conductors on journeys and okay.

After a very long argument with my friend offering to just buy a ticket and make him go away as they were embarrassed, I finally got him to back down.

However I would like to have a stronger argument in future as I get a Thameslink only train in to my work at the hospital. It would be very costly as it almost doubles the price.

Any advice welcomed.

 

[AlbertBeale]

"Thameslink only" tickets (putting aside the argument that restriction by brand, as opposed to restriction by TOC [GX and Southern are part of same company as Thameslink] isn't valid anyway) are intended only for Thameslink-branded trains. However, there are other London-Brighton tickets which are the same lower price which are restricted by only being valid to/from T/L stations at the London end - ie from any of St P, Farringdon, City T/L, Blackfriars, London Bridge. Providing you're en route to/from those places (ie not, if north of East Croydon, on the Victoria route) then they're fully as usable as any higher-price London-Brighton ticket. Hence, once you're south of London you can definitively use GX or Southern trains, and you can avail yourself of the usual rule that you can go to Brighton via Hove, and of course you can break your journey there.

So if the problem is that you want to use a London-Brighton ticket to get to Hove (because cheaper tickets are available to Brighton on account of there being T/L-only tickets?) but the brand of train (T/L) you have a ticket for doesn't go to Hove any more [is that it??], then don't get a ticket which is [allegedly] restricted by brand, but get an equally cheaper one to/from Thameslink stations (which has no other restriction). Since it seems that you want to go to/from London Bridge anyway, then this should do the trick for you.

 

[IrishDave]

The 17:33 London Bridge to Littlehampton was a Thameslink train until May 2023, but it was transferred to Southern at that point. Therefore "Thameslink only" tickets are no longer valid on that train.

The solution suggested by Albert Beale is the best one - a Brighton to "London Thameslink" ticket is valid to London Bridge (and onwards to St Pancras), but is not restricted only to Thameslink trains. These will usually say "not valid via London Underground" (or just "not Underground"). This should be the same price as a Brighton to "London Terminals" ticket which says "Thameslink only", which I think is what you have been buying up to this point?

 

[yorkie]

Hey. I wondered if you kind people could give me the evidence to prove my ticket (Thamelink only) London Bridge to Brighton is valid on Southern Gatwick Express (nothing to do with Gatwick) is valid instead to Hove?

It's valid on any train operated by Govia Thameslink.

However if you use any trains operated by this company under their "Southern" or "Gatwick Express" brands, you could erroneously be charged for a new ticket or a Penalty Fare; if this happens you should appeal this, and contact us for assistance.

Such charges are rare, and when they occur, appeals so far have always been successful, in every case that we've been made aware of.

Govia Thameslink are in hot water over this and the matter is due to go to court later this year:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

The ticket I have has always been accepted by conductors on the train for years and is much cheaper. It also goes through the Hove station as it is a Thameslink station.

However, this evening there was an inspector on the 17.33 train to Hove (final destination Littlehampton) who was raising his voice, patronising and intimidating. I argued that they’d stopped direct trains after the pandemic without consultation to Hove (when it did get busy) and this was the only one I got In the evening.

If you recorded this altercation, I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of the audio. Please contact me if so.

My friends were with me so I had witnesses that the has previously been checked by conductors on journeys and okay.

After a very long argument with my friend offering to just buy a ticket and make him go away as they were embarrassed, I finally got him to back down.

Glad to hear he backed down in the end; in my experience, they almost always do.

Very rarely they don't, leading to things like this:

I got my £20 penalty fare back from GTR

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Back in the carefree pre Covid-19 days of travelling around the country for pleasure, on Wednesday 5th March, I found myself on a train from my local station, Hassocks in Suss…

busandtrainuser.com

I got my £20 penalty fare back from GTR

.... the postman has finally delivered a cheque for £20 dated 5th May in today’s post, Tuesday 12th May, ten weeks after being charged the penalty fare....

However I would like to have a stronger argument in future as I get a Thameslink only train in to my work at the hospital. It would be very costly as it almost doubles the price.

Any advice welcomed.

If you end up being charged an excess or penalty fare in future, pay the excess fare, under duress. Take a photo of all tickets. Put in for a refund, and ask us for advice on how to word your letter.

 

[JackFlash]

Thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately, I did not have a recording and believe you need to get their permission. I expect that this would further inflame them and make them more dogged in pursuing a penalty charge. This incidentally is £100 and no longer £20 so I cannot afford to pay an on the spot fine like this. This combined with the time hassle of making an appeal is the reason I would like a strong argument should this occur again (and not be charged in the first instance).

The two friends who regularly travel with me advised that the conductor/inspector was raising his voice and told him to lower it. I told him he was being intimidating and patronising. He said he’d just charge me for a new ticket which I did not accept.

Glad I stood my ground but it still made me anxious and very concerned should be come across me again where I’d get the full £100 charge.

"Thameslink only" tickets (putting aside the argument that restriction by brand, as opposed to restriction by TOC [GX and Southern are part of same company as Thameslink] isn't valid anyway) are intended only for Thameslink-branded trains. However, there are other London-Brighton tickets which are the same lower price which are restricted by only being valid to/from T/L stations at the London end - ie from any of St P, Farringdon, City T/L, Blackfriars, London Bridge. Providing you're en route to/from those places (ie not, if north of East Croydon, on the Victoria route) then they're fully as usable as any higher-price London-Brighton ticket. Hence, once you're south of London you can definitively use GX or Southern trains, and you can avail yourself of the usual rule that you can go to Brighton via Hove, and of course you can break your journey there.

So if the problem is that you want to use a London-Brighton ticket to get to Hove (because cheaper tickets are available to Brighton on account of there being T/L-only tickets?) but the brand of train (T/L) you have a ticket for doesn't go to Hove any more [is that it??], then don't get a ticket which is [allegedly] restricted by brand, but get an equally cheaper one to/from Thameslink stations (which has no other restriction). Since it seems that you want to go to/from London Bridge anyway, then this should do the trick for you.

Thank you for looking at this. You seem to know the system very well.

However, I do not believe there is a cheaper ticket. My exact situation is that I now start my journey into work at Brighton getting the first off peak ticket to London Bridge. A return costs £22.70. I have used the return on occasion (about once a week if it is running) to get the 17.33 from LBG to Hove which is run by Gatwick Express. There are no direct trains anymore from Hove to LBG in the morning since after the pandemic.

The 17.33 is the only direct one now running but it is extremely temperamental and often cancelled. Hence if I bought a more expensive ticket, it would be wasted. Ticket would be £35 approx. In addition, theee would be other T/L around that time (always busy and you have to stand up) to Brighton so I could not claim delay repay

On that note, I did get awarded 70 pence when I claimed for a 15 min delay of the 17.33 which made me think my ticket was valid on this train.

Hove is a T/L station and tickets are accepted there when getting off the train.

Unless there are any other options?

It's valid on any train operated by Govia Thameslink.

However if you use any trains operated by this company under their "Southern" or "Gatwick Express" brands, you could erroneously be charged for a new ticket or a Penalty Fare; if this happens you should appeal this, and contact us for assistance.

Such charges are rare, and when they occur, appeals so far have always been successful, in every case that we've been made aware of.

Govia Thameslink are in hot water over this and the matter is due to go to court later this year:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

If you recorded this altercation, I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of the audio. Please contact me if so.

Glad to hear he backed down in the end; in my experience, they almost always do.

Very rarely they don't, leading to things like this:

I got my £20 penalty fare back from GTR

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Back in the carefree pre Covid-19 days of travelling around the country for pleasure, on Wednesday 5th March, I found myself on a train from my local station, Hassocks in Suss…

busandtrainuser.com

If you end up being charged an excess or penalty fare in future, pay the excess fare, under duress. Take a photo of all tickets. Put in for a refund, and ask us for advice on how to word your letter.

Thank you!

 

[yorkie]

Thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately, I did not have a recording and believe you need to get their permission...

You don't, however....

I expect that this would further inflame them and make them more dogged in pursuing a penalty charge.

...yes, I think you are right that if they realised you were recording, this could indeed happen.

This incidentally is £100 and no longer £20 so I cannot afford to pay an on the spot fine like this. This combined with the time hassle of making an appeal is the reason I would like a strong argument should this occur again (and not be charged in the first instance)...

What you would do in such an instance is co-operated with the PF and immediately appeal it (and contact us for assistance!)

The two friends who regularly travel with me advised that the conductor/inspector was raising his voice and told him to lower it. I told him he was being intimidating and patronising. He said he’d just charge me for a new ticket which I did not accept.

I would consider making a complaint, especially if you have witnesses. Indeed, it would probably be better for the witnesses to make a complaint (independently) stating they witnessed this behaviour towards a customer they were travelling with; they don't need to go into the details of the ticketing dispute, just detail the behaviour. I'm happy to proofread any such letter.

Glad I stood my ground but it still made me anxious and very concerned should be come across me again where I’d get the full £100 charge.

Unfortunately, there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure the behaviour of customer-facing staff is consistently appropriate. If such behaviour occurred in any of the workplaces I've been at, then it wouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Tester]

Just to clarify, a Penalty Fare is NOT an on the spot fine. You are not required to have a lazy £100 available on the off chance that one is issued.

It is of course hassle, which is nice to avoid, but that is the only reason for being concerned.

 

[Hophead]

...

However, I do not believe there is a cheaper ticket. My exact situation is that I now start my journey into work at Brighton getting the first off peak ticket to London Bridge. A return costs £22.70. I have used the return on occasion (about once a week if it is running) to get the 17.33 from LBG to Hove which is run by Gatwick Express. There are no direct trains anymore from Hove to LBG in the morning since after the pandemic.

The 17.33 is the only direct one now running but it is extremely temperamental and often cancelled. Hence if I bought a more expensive ticket, it would be wasted. Ticket would be £35 approx. In addition, theee would be other T/L around that time (always busy and you have to stand up) to Brighton so I could not claim delay repay

.....

Without wanting to get into all the other technicalities, Gatwick Express services do not run to Hove, nor do they depart from London Bridge. This is a Southern service, although it may well be operated by red class 387 Gatwick Express units.

 

[yorkie]

Without wanting to get into all the other technicalities, Gatwick Express services do not run to Hove, nor do they depart from London Bridge. This is a Southern service, although it may well be operated by red class 387 Gatwick Express units.

True, though the result is the same: GTR are claiming that tickets routed Thameslink Only are brand-specific tickets, rather than operator-specific tickets; the regulatory framework for the rail industy permits operator-specific tickets, but not brand-specific tickets.

A few years ago GTR used to claim that each brand was a separate company, and that GTR was an "umbrella" company with four constituent companies, one for each brand, but they appear to have shifted their argument to claiming that brand specific tickets are permitted.

In any case there will hopefully making a ruling on this matter later this year.

 

[43066]

True, though the result is the same: GTR are claiming that tickets routed Thameslink Only are brand-specific tickets, rather than operator-specific tickets; the regulatory framework for the rail industy permits operator-specific tickets, but not brand-specific tickets.

I thought the basis of the case was that GTR are (allegedly) abusing a dominant market position? Gatwick Express has long been (and AIUI continues to be) a completely separate operator in terms of employment of traincrew, stock allocations etc. so it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine they might validly argue that it’s also a different operator for ticketing purposes, and no doubt each brand (or operator) will be held by different entities within the GTR corporate group.

Different operators could still be held to be collectively abusing a dominant position, so this analysis certainly wouldn’t be fatal to the competition law claim.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

There are no direct trains anymore from Hove to LBG in the morning since after the pandemic.

The 06.46 from Hove runs to London Bridge.

 

[Howardh]

As an onlooker who travels to Brighton about 3-4 times a year, I find the complexity of all the TOC's and ticket restrictions etc on that line bewildering, and I think I'm reasonably savvy. Something like Brighton to Victoria and return from St Pancras or London Bridge with the cheapest option is head-spinning. It's also a similar story from Milton Keynes into London, which has some kind of super off-peak ticket for after 1pm (??) and then there are the travel card extensions....

While I can't condone anyone trying to beat the system by being on the wrong TOC at the wrong time and place, it's so darned difficult to get it right. For pax travelling regularly I know a saving of £3-4/trip adds up to a considerable amount, but also why the heck does it have to be so complicated? Can't we just reduce the number of options and drop the need to be on a specific TOC??

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Can't we just reduce the number of options and drop the need to be on a specific TOC??

Most people would prefer the complexity than having to pay the highest-priced fare all the time.

 

[43066]

As an onlooker who travels to Brighton about 3-4 times a year, I find the complexity of all the TOC's and ticket restrictions etc on that line bewildering, and I think I'm reasonably savvy. Something like Brighton to Victoria and return from St Pancras or London Bridge with the cheapest option is head-spinning. It's also a similar story from Milton Keynes into London, which has some kind of super off-peak ticket for after 1pm (??) and then there are the travel card extensions....

While I can't condone anyone trying to beat the system by being on the wrong TOC at the wrong time and place, it's so darned difficult to get it right. For pax travelling regularly I know a saving of £3-4/trip adds up to a considerable amount, but also why the heck does it have to be so complicated?

This is part of the reason so many objected to ticket office closures; it’s useful having someone who can explain it/find the cheapest option! For most non-enthusiast type people railway ticketing is utterly confusing, soul crushingly boring, and far too tedious a subject to spend any time researching.

Can't we just reduce the number of options and drop the need to be on a specific TOC??

Careful what you wish for. This will likely lead to a smaller range of (guaranteed to be more expensive) options!

 

[Howardh]

Most people would prefer the complexity than having to pay the highest-priced fare all the time.

I understand that, but I think an OP day return should be as cheap as the cheapest option currently available, but be able to use any TOC from any London station. What's the difference between the cheapest peak day return and the most expensive (standard class)?

 

[43066]

I understand that, but I think an OP day return should be as cheap as the cheapest option currently available, but be able to use any TOC from any London station. What's the difference between the cheapest peak day return and the most expensive (standard class)?

The direction of travel, as showcased by LNER, is abolition of returns and a move to anytime or advanced tickets only.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What's the difference between the cheapest peak day return and the most expensive (standard class)?

Any Route Permitted BTN - LON: £68.40
Thameslink Only BTN - LON: £52.60

Nice fare increase there in an LNER-style Simpler Fares...

 

[Howardh]

Any Route Permitted BTN - LON: £68.40
Thameslink Only BTN - LON: £52.60

Nice fare increase there in an LNER-style Simpler Fares...

Thanks, it's quite a difference but if "simpler fares" are to work and be popular, they have to be towards the cheapest fare and not the most expensive! What's interesting to me, and I don't know if I've just been lucky, but every single time I've travelled on Thameslink no-one's been round to check the ticket, so I could have one valid only on another TOC (the barriers don't differentiate) - do Southern and Gatwick Express check regularly, especially during the peak?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

to work and be popular,

To work and be popular for whom? You have to be very naive to think they'd reform fares for them to be cheaper for no real benefit other than to avoid the confusion of different coloured trains

 

[Howardh]

To work and be popular for whom? You have to be very naive to think they'd reform fares for them to be cheaper for no real benefit other than to avoid the confusion of different coloured trains

We want people to get on the trains, yes? How many are put off by this almost infinite number of ticket options and give in? As alluded to in another post, passengers shouldn't have to wade through all the options and restrictions, and we are supposed to be running the trains for the benefit of passengers (and environment), not the TOC's!!!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How many are put off by this almost infinite number of ticket options and give in?

"Thameslink Only" vs "Any Permitted Route" is not an infinite number of options. And given the extremely high usage of trains on the BML, I very much doubt it is a real concern for anybody aside from people on this forum. Furthermore, this will be solved if and when CPAY is rolled out to Brighton as part of Project Oval phase 2.

 

[Howardh]

"Thameslink Only" vs "Any Permitted Route" is not an infinite number of options. And given the extremely high usage of trains on the BML, I very much doubt it is a real concern for anybody aside from people on this forum. Furthermore, this will be solved if and when CPAY is rolled out to Brighton as part of Project Oval phase 2.

Yet another option.....!!

I'll leave it there!

 

[43066]

We want people to get on the trains, yes? How many are put off by this almost infinite number of ticket options and give in? As alluded to in another post, passengers shouldn't have to wade through all the options and restrictions, and we are supposed to be running the trains for the benefit of passengers (and environment), not the TOC's!!!

“We” on this forum, as collection of enthusiasts and staff, might. The government (via the DfT) have a different agenda; it won’t have escaped their notice that many trains are severely overcrowded, despite fares increasing year on year, and they would rather increase prices in order to raise revenue and control demand, and run fewer services to reduce costs. Simplification is a disarming sound bite they can use to justify this.

Not my idea of a sensible or responsible approach, but it’s the one currently being adopted, and one which your suggested approach will only further enable.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Yet another option.....!!

The difference between first class and standard class is an "option". I say remove said option and standardise the prices at the first class level...

 

[Watershed]

We want people to get on the trains, yes? How many are put off by this almost infinite number of ticket options and give in? As alluded to in another post, passengers shouldn't have to wade through all the options and restrictions, and we are supposed to be running the trains for the benefit of passengers (and environment), not the TOC's!!!

That would be the sensible outcome. But neither the government nor the industry are interested in that. The government is desperate to reduce subsidy, even if that means throwing the baby out with the bathwater (as seen in the LNER "trial"), and the industry continues to have a fascination with introducing new ticket types, restrictions and complexity and an allergy to any kind of standardisation.

Passengers come last in all of this; they have little sway when it comes to the decisions as it's not a huge political topic (yet).

 

[JackFlash]

Without wanting to get into all the other technicalities, Gatwick Express services do not run to Hove, nor do they depart from London Bridge. This is a Southern service, although it may well be operated by red class 387 Gatwick Express units.

Thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately, I did not have a recording and believe you need to get their permission. I expect that this would further inflame them and make them more dogged in pursuing a penalty charge. This incidentally is £100 and no longer £20 so I cannot afford to pay an on the spot fine like this. This combined with the time hassle of making an appeal is the reason I would like a strong argument should this occur again (and not be charged in the first instance).

The two friends who regularly travel with me advised that the conductor/inspector was raising his voice and told him to lower it. I told him he was being intimidating and patronising. He said he’d just charge me for a new ticket which I did not accept.

Glad I stood my ground but it still made me anxious and very concerned should be come across me again where I’d get the full £100 charge.


Thank you for looking at this. You seem to know the system very well.

However, I do not believe there is a cheaper ticket. My exact situation is that I now start my journey into work at Brighton getting the first off peak ticket to London Bridge. A return costs £22.70. I have used the return on occasion (about once a week if it is running) to get the 17.33 from LBG to Hove which is run by Gatwick Express. There are no direct trains anymore from Hove to LBG in the morning since after the pandemic.

The 17.33 is the only direct one now running but it is extremely temperamental and often cancelled. Hence if I bought a more expensive ticket, it would be wasted. Ticket would be £35 approx. In addition, theee would be other T/L around that time (always busy and you have to stand up) to Brighton so I could not claim delay repay

On that note, I did get awarded 70 pence when I claimed for a 15 min delay of the 17.33 which made me think my ticket was valid on this train.

Hove is a T/L station and tickets are accepted there when getting off the train.

Unless there are any other options?


Thank you!

To add to the complexity - Thameslink are putting different information in exactly the same ticket. So last Friday 8th March, I bought my usual return ticket to London (includes all Thameslink terminals) for £22.70 and under route it stated ‘Thameslink only’ which the conductor tried to hand me on. Today, the same ticket states ‘not underground’. So I am inclined to believe the 17.33 from LBG, although a red Gatwick express train operated by southern (correct me if I am wrong) is now valid with this ticket as it does not state ‘Thameslink only’.

 

[Haywain]

Thameslink are putting different information in exactly the same ticket.

They are not - there are tickets for both routes available (at the same price).

 

[yorkie]

I thought the basis of the case was that GTR are (allegedly) abusing a dominant market position?

Yes, by having brand-specific pricing contrary to the relevant legislation/conditions/framework, which is distorting the market.

Gatwick Express has long been (and AIUI continues to be) a completely separate operator in terms of employment of traincrew, stock allocations etc.

It is not a separate operator; the operator is Govia Thameslink Railway.

Operational matters are not relevant to this case, but if you want to look at comparisons, Northern operates in a manner that is more like two separate TOCs than GTR does! There are numerous other examples, with EMR and XC having levels of separation between parts of their business that were previously separate TOCs.

so it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine they might validly argue that it’s also a different operator for ticketing purposes

They appear to have given up that argument, which tells you all you need to know about the validity of it.

, and no doubt each brand (or operator) will be held by different entities within the GTR corporate group.

GTR is the entity.

Different operators could still be held to be collectively abusing a dominant position, so this analysis certainly wouldn’t be fatal to the competition law claim.

If you want to understand it better, you could read the link provided in the original thread.

While I can't condone anyone trying to beat the system by being on the wrong TOC at the wrong time and place, it's so darned difficult to get it right. For pax travelling regularly I know a saving of £3-4/trip adds up to a considerable amount, but also why the heck does it have to be so complicated? Can't we just reduce the number of options and drop the need to be on a specific TOC??

For Brighton/Gatwick-London, there is only one TOC (notwithstanding that for small parts of the journey you could be on GWR/SWR/SE).

This is part of the reason so many objected to ticket office closures; it’s useful having someone who can explain it/find the cheapest option!

Sadly misinformation from ticket offices, on this particular matter at least, on this line, is going to be very much the norm.

This is part of the reason so many objected to ticket office closures; it’s useful having someone who can explain it/find the cheapest option! For most non-enthusiast type people railway ticketing is utterly confusing, soul crushingly boring, and far too tedious a subject to spend any time researching.



Careful what you wish for. This will likely lead to a smaller range of (guaranteed to be more expensive) options!

Yes the cheapest fares will go up, but the most expensive fares would have to come down, such as the Gatwick to London premium fare (even the non-premium fare is charged at a significant premium over the cost of "splitting"!)

We want people to get on the trains, yes?

No, the DfT does not want too many people on trains as this means increased costs, but this is a discussion for another thread (indeed it has cropped up elsewhere numerous times)

Thanks, it's quite a difference but if "simpler fares" are to work and be popular, they have to be towards the cheapest fare and not the most expensive!

It doesn't work like that; I refer you to the LNER threads as it's all been discussed there, it' not for this thread.#

See:

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance. From...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is LNER losing the plot with fares policy

We have had a number of discussions recently about LNER fare policy. The London - Newcastle / Edinburgh trail seems to have very few winners. Then the policy of not selling tickets to allow people to stand on their services is undesirable. This is a concern to me. I will of course buy the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Impact of LNER single ticket only policy and any thoughts

We visit family in Peterborough maybe 4 times a year, travelling by train from Bempton. We are going again in a couple of weeks, Saturday 19th for the day, and there are no advance tickets available for Bempton - Peterborough that day. I am not totally surprised, middle of August, weekend etc...

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER / UK Fare System

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www.railforums.co.uk

(and there are several more!)

What's interesting to me, and I don't know if I've just been lucky, but every single time I've travelled on Thameslink no-one's been round to check the ticket, so I could have one valid only on another TOC (the barriers don't differentiate) - do Southern and Gatwick Express check regularly, especially during the peak?

GTR have on board supervisors on most (if not all) of their "GX" branded trains and I think most or at least some of the "mainline" trains on the Brighton Mainline which are branded "Southern". But not on their Thameslink branded trains; if you see staff checking tickets on Thameslink branded trains, that will be a revenue inspector/officer.

To add to the complexity - Thameslink are putting different information in exactly the same ticket. So last Friday 8th March, I bought my usual return ticket to London (includes all Thameslink terminals) for £22.70 and under route it stated ‘Thameslink only’ which the conductor tried to hand me on. Today, the same ticket states ‘not underground’. So I am inclined to believe the 17.33 from LBG, although a red Gatwick express train operated by southern (correct me if I am wrong) is now valid with this ticket as it does not state ‘Thameslink only’.

GTR have tickets, at the same price, to either "London Thameslink" routed "Not underground" (which - at least ostensibly - denies travel via Victoria) or alternatively to "London Terminals" routed "Thameslink Only" (which is arguably valid into Victoria, on any train operated by Govia Thameslink, but the company doesn't see it that way!)

“We” on this forum, as collection of enthusiasts and staff, might. The government (via the DfT) have a different agenda; it won’t have escaped their notice that many trains are severely overcrowded, despite fares increasing year on year, and they would rather increase prices in order to raise revenue and control demand, and run fewer services to reduce costs. Simplification is a disarming sound bite they can use to justify this.

Not my idea of a sensible or responsible approach, but it’s the one currently being adopted, and one which your suggested approach will only further enable.

This is absolutely true, in my opinion.

 

[sheff1]

Where do you buy your tickets ?

If online or from a Ticket Vending Machine at the station make sure you select the "Not Underground" option NOT "Thameslink Only".

If you buy from the station ticket office specify that you want "Not Underground" and do not accept a "Thameslink Only" ticket on the basis that it is the same price - although the price is the same the validity is different.

 

[43066]

It is not a separate operator; the operator is Govia Thameslink Railway.

Operational matters are not relevant to this case, but if you want to look at comparisons, Northern operates in a manner that is more like two separate TOCs than GTR does! There are numerous other examples, with EMR and XC having levels of separation between parts of their business that were previously separate TOCs.

That’s a view, and it might even be the correct one, but nobody will know for sure until the case is resolved. It also may well make no difference to the competition law question.

GTR is the entity.

GTR certainly won’t be one entity, it’ll be a corporate group comprised of various different entities. I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, but these questions are complex, may cost many hundreds of thousands of pounds to even get a legal opinion on, and even then that view wont be a definitive statement of the position!

If you want to understand it better, you could read the link provided in the original thread.

It’ll certainly be interesting to read the eventual judgement.

Sadly misinformation from ticket offices, on this particular matter at least, on this line, is going to be very much the norm.

You can’t reasonably expect ticket office staff to do anymore than parrot their employer’s line - and indeed if they did otherwise they’d find themselves being sacked sooner or later. They aren’t competition law experts, and they’re unlikely even to be aware of the case.

However they are likely to be able to provide advice on the cheapest ticketing options for those who are unfamiliar with railway ticketing, and have no interest in the subject, which is probably 99% of railway users. Most travellers will simply accept the company line that Gatwick Express is a separate premium service, which they have to pay more to use, and won’t see any issue with that.

This is absolutely true, in my opinion.

Yes, and it’s something those of us with an interest in the industry (and certainly those who work in it) should be opposed to. We really do need a sensible resolution to the disputes, and a focus on growth going forward.