Northern Rail - Caught 30 mins earlier train

Hellsbells said:

I don’t know if the person we asked got on the train but he was in uniform. There were 2 ticket inspectors on this train and they both conferred about the matter. My point is that when he was filling in the fine notice he explicitly said to us that we can appeal and state our case, the matter would be dropped and there would be no further action.

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If that was the case - it would just be dropped - there'd be no need for him to report you. Inspectors often tell lies like this to just get your details, but it is what it is sadly.

Hellsbells said:

We did exactly that, appealed twice by post, but due to the length of time taken the fine has now gone up to over £100 EACH.

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Show us the correspondence with your details removed, this is important because we need to know *exactly* what you were issued. Is this a Penalty Fare? Earlier you mentioned you'd get a letter in the post, but a Penalty Fare can only be issued on the spot.

3 letters received in date order. Latest one received yesterday. Really appreciate your help with this. Thank you.

The first letter just asks you to pay the outstanding fare (an Unpaid Fares Notice, essentially). Why on earth did you not just pay that?

This isn't a Penalty Fare, so I think you're stuck with just paying what is requested by the latest letter.

Bletchleyite said:

The first letter just asks you to pay the outstanding fare (an Unpaid Fares Notice, essentially). Why on earth did you not just pay that?

This isn't a Penalty Fare, so I think you're stuck with just paying what is requested by the latest letter.

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I was taking the advice of the ticket inspector and appealing. That’s what he told us to do!

Hellsbells said:

3 letters received in date order. Latest one received yesterday. Really appreciate your help with this. Thank you.

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Thanks for sharing

Bletchleyite said:

The first letter just asks you to pay the outstanding fare (an Unpaid Fares Notice, essentially). Why on earth did you not just pay that?

This isn't a Penalty Fare, so I think you're stuck with just paying what is requested by the latest letter.

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Yes, based on verbal instruction given on the train by staff to "appeal it" - but obv the letter does not state any ability to appeal

SO - v bad luck the OP did not seek help here earlier but all I can think of doing now is

a) pay these sums ASAP to prevent further escalation

b) write to Northern's customer services to explain that the staff member on board the train (list date train time etc) - advised you that an 'appeal could be made' which is the only reason you did not pay immediately - and could they kindly refund the additional £100 now asked for that occurred whilst you believed you were appealing the request for the fare, an Appeal that you only made because staff advised you to do so.

c) copy that to your MP with a request that the MP raise how the matter has been handled with Northern Trains (Northern Trains are run by a govt operator so an MPs involvement is not unreasonable in my view) and ask if your MP can support your request for the 2 x £100 sums to be repaid.

You need to be very clear that you were clearly advised by a member of staff on the train that you could appeal any sum asked for, which you then did in good faith, as you had no intention to evade the fare. That member of staff mislead you and as a consequence you have each had to pay £100 more than you would otherwise have had to pay.

Hellsbells said:

I was taking the advice of the ticket inspector and appealing. That’s what he told us to do!

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You don't have anything to appeal; they're merely asking you for the fare for the journey, which is the proper off peak fare which would have allowed you to take any train you wanted. You knew your ticket wasn't valid, and hence the fare was due. This is extremely lenient of them in the circumstances.

The only advice I think which makes sense is @WesternLancer's above.

This is such a shame. The first letter (8th Feb?) was only asking for £9.70 in full settlement. By not acting promptly (within the 14 days they allowed), this has escalated into an additional £100.

Best to chalk this down to experience and pay, else it could increase further. From what you've said, the guard(?) who said you could board the train wasn't aware what type of ticket you had but it isn't their responsibility to either - it is assumed you know what you bought and any limitations on travel it might have. Had you made it clear to them that your ticket was only valid on the 12:06 service, they may have suggested waiting for the correct service.

Sultan said:

Best to chalk this down to experience and pay, else it could increase further. From what you've said, the guard(?) who said you could board the train wasn't aware what type of ticket you had but it isn't their responsibility to either - it is assumed you know what you bought and any limitations on travel it might have. Had you made it clear to them that your ticket was only valid on the 12:06 service, they may have suggested waiting for the correct service.

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And depending how exactly the question was phrased depends on the answer given - ie:
"Can I get on this train?" - "yes", because dispatch hasn't started and the doors are open so it's still possible to board.
"I'm going to Hornbeam Park, can I get this train" - "yes", because it stops there.
"I have a ticket for the next train, but can I get this one instead?" - "yes" here would be providing permission to use your ticket, but it's practically impossible to prove was given.

Hellsbells said:

I was taking the advice of the ticket inspector and appealing. That’s what he told us to do!

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WesternLancer said:

Thanks for sharing


Yes, based on verbal instruction given on the train by staff to "appeal it" - but obv the letter does not state any ability to appeal

SO - v bad luck the OP did not seek help here earlier but all I can think of doing now is

a) pay these sums ASAP to prevent further escalation

b) write to Northern's customer services to explain that the staff member on board the train (list date train time etc) - advised you that an 'appeal could be made' which is the only reason you did not pay immediately - and could they kindly refund the additional £100 now asked for that occurred whilst you believed you were appealing the request for the fare, an Appeal that you only made because staff advised you to do so.

c) copy that to your MP with a request that the MP raise how the matter has been handled with Northern Trains (Northern Trains are run by a govt operator so an MPs involvement is not unreasonable in my view)

You need to be very clear that you were clearly advised by a member of staff on the train that you could appeal any sum asked for, which you then did in good faith, as you had no intention to evade the fare. That member of staff mislead you and as a consequence you have each had to pay £100 more than you would otherwise have had to pay.

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Thank you very much for your help. Obviously I’m fuming at being made to feel like a fare dodging criminal and will put this down to experience. In times when the rail service relies on public support to function incidents such as this do nothing to help their cause. I have however taken your advice and begrudgingly paid the 2 x £109.70p and will write to them and ask them to look into the matter as you suggest. Kind regards. H

Hellsbells said:

Thank you very much for your help. Obviously I’m fuming at being made to feel like a fare dodging criminal and will put this down to experience. In times when the rail service relies on public support to function incidents such as this do nothing to help their cause. I have however taken your advice and begrudgingly paid the 2 x £109.70p and will write to them and ask them to look into the matter as you suggest. Kind regards. H

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Thanks - yes very frustrating.

At one level it's 'welcome to the govt's hostile environment policy for rail travellers' which is to make the operators maximise income with little or no regard to the damage to the customer experience that comes as a a result. This is driven by HM Treasury and Dept for Transport - and links into the desire to do away with staff on trains that can sell fares etc but to implement a punitive regime of Penalty Fares etc. Having said that in this case you were only asked to pay a ticket that was actually valid on the train but you were mislead (for whatever reason) by staff on the platform and staff on the train ref the appeal.

If you think it might help, you could post up the draft of any letter you want to send to Northern and people will no doubt be happy to check the content for you, if that might help maximise chance of success.