Northern Rail - Caught 30 mins earlier train

[Hellsbells]

Hi there. Can anyone give me some advice regarding a dispute with Northern Rail? Me and my hubby travelled from Leeds to Hornbeam Park on Sunday 4th Feb. I bought our tickets on my app for the 12.06 train but when we got to the station the earlier 1136 train was still on the platform so we asked the guard if we could get on and he said yes. When the ticket inspector came round I showed him the tickets on my app but he said they were for the later train. So we explained the above and said he would have to report us. Both journeys were the same price. He said that when we got the letter in the post we just needed to appeal explaining the circumstances and the matter would be dropped. We have now written 2 letters as he told us. Two more final demand letters received today saying the charge is now £100 plus the cost of the ticket for EACH of us or Magistrates court action. The telephone numbers on the letters are just automated messages. Can anyone advise me please? This is sooooooo annoying I could understand if we were trying to dodge paying but we weren’t at all!!! Many thanks.

 

[Brissle Girl]

One question - did you make it very clear to the guard that you had tickets that were only valid for the later train? As opposed to just asking if you could board (eg if the train was about to leave).

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Your tickets weren't valid for that train. I don't know why you were apparently expecting that permission to board would mean permission to use an invalid ticket.
When buying on your app it would have clearly stated something like 'specified train only' for the ticket you selected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your tickets weren't valid for that train. I don't know why you were apparently expecting that permission to board would mean permission to use an invalid ticket.

However if a guard having seen the ticket gave permission then that overrides what any RPI might think - if the RPI thought the guard was in the wrong for giving such permission their sanction is to report them to their manager for doing so, not to penalise the passenger. The problem is proving that they did.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi there. Can anyone give me some advice regarding a dispute with Northern Rail? Me and my hubby travelled from Leeds to Hornbeam Park on Sunday 4th Feb. I bought our tickets on my app for the 12.06 train but when we got to the station the earlier 1136 train was still on the platform so we asked the guard if we could get on and he said yes.

Did you show the guard your tickets?

When the ticket inspector came round

Is this the guard, or were were you approached by someone else, like a revenue protection inspector?

I showed him the tickets on my app but he said they were for the later train. So we explained the above and said he would have to report us.

What, exactly, did you explain? if the guard gave explicit permission to travel, having seen your tickets (did this happen?), why was this reason not accepted?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi there. Can anyone give me some advice regarding a dispute with Northern Rail? Me and my hubby travelled from Leeds to Hornbeam Park on Sunday 4th Feb. I bought our tickets on my app for the 12.06 train but when we got to the station the earlier 1136 train was still on the platform so we asked the guard if we could get on and he said yes. When the ticket inspector came round I showed him the tickets on my app but he said they were for the later train. So we explained the above and said he would have to report us. Both journeys were the same price. He said that when we got the letter in the post we just needed to appeal explaining the circumstances and the matter would be dropped. We have now written 2 letters as he told us. Two more final demand letters received today saying the charge is now £100 plus the cost of the ticket for EACH of us or Magistrates court action. The telephone numbers on the letters are just automated messages. Can anyone advise me please? This is sooooooo annoying I could understand if we were trying to dodge paying but we weren’t at all!!! Many thanks.

Were you issued with a Penalty Fare (£100 or £50 if paid promptly) which has a right of Appeal or one of Northern's 'Fixed Penalty Notices' which have no right of appeal as as I understand it are a request to pay a sum (often / usually £100) with the condition that if you do not pay this they will escalate to prosecution.

The difference may be pertinent in terms of what your options now are but I fear if it is the later that you have received there is little in the way of options and you are probably best advised to pay this quickly to prevent further escalation.

If you upload copies of the paperwork with your personal details and ref numbers blocked out ppl here can check this for you.

There are numerous cases on here where staff tell people along lines of 'have to issue this but if you appeal it will be ok' as a way of diffusing a situation at that moment in time (or prevent customers getting angry).

My advice is that on these short local journeys where the sum saved by selecting a times specific train is worth very little over having a ticket valid on any or many trains (Anytime or Off Peak tickets) the sum saved is not worth the loss in flexibility - and it's certainly not worth it when it results in a punishment of £50 - £100 or threats of prosecution. I suspect that across the purchase of a rtn ticket - or a single each way - you probably only saved £2 or £3 ish maybe by (presumably) selecting an 'Advance' fare.

My other advice would be to make sure to claim 'delay -repay' on any delayed trains you are ever on as a way of recouping something from the railway, since you would be owed it with legit claims.

 

[AlterEgo]

Were you issued with a Penalty Fare (£100 or £50 if paid promptly) which has a right of Appeal or one of Northern's 'Fixed Penalty Notices' which have no right of appeal as as I understand it are a request to pay a sum (often / usually £100) with the condition that if you do not pay this they will escalate to prosecution.

The OP received a letter after the fact, not at the time, so it must be the latter.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP received a letter after the fact, not at the time, so it must be the latter.

Indeed what I fear is the case, but of course helpful if the OP can clarify when they have the chance.

 

[Western Sunset]

What I don't understand is how the ticket can be train specific - the middle of the day on a Sunday?
Both Trainline and National Rail sell 'em for £4.20 single with no time restrictions.

 

[Skymonster]

What I don't understand is how the ticket can be train specific - the middle of the day on a Sunday?
Both Trainline and National Rail sell 'em for £4.20 single with no time restrictions.

£4.20 advance single; £10.20 anytime single, £11.40 anytime day return - you can guess the rest.

 

[Haywain]

Both Trainline and National Rail sell 'em for £4.20 single with no time restrictions.

National Rail don't sell anything, and I very much doubt that Trainline sell Advance tickets with no time restrictions.

 

[Western Sunset]

I merely went onto the National Rail and Trainline websites, as a normal punter would, and I was just offered the £4.20 single for a Sunday around midday. It didn't mention any other prices.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I merely went onto the National Rail and Trainline websites, as a normal punter would, and I was just offered the £4.20 single for a Sunday around midday. It didn't mention any other prices.

Just checked and they clearly show as Advance tickets, so booked train only.

 

[WesternLancer]

I merely went onto the National Rail and Trainline websites, as a normal punter would, and I was just offered the £4.20 single for a Sunday around midday. It didn't mention any other prices.

Yes, they are badly presented at first glance and people are mislead into buying tickets (which people want to do quickly as it's not the most exciting aspect of life) that may not always meet their requirements. The worst thing is that train companies and government seem to maintain that this makes train tickets 'simpler' for people.

 

[AlterEgo]

I merely went onto the National Rail and Trainline websites, as a normal punter would, and I was just offered the £4.20 single for a Sunday around midday. It didn't mention any other prices.

The Trainline app does - it says "More tickets available from £9.80" underneath "Specified train only. No refunds. Only valid on booked Northern services".

The Northern app shows all prices and is very, very clear indeed.

None of this is of any direct help to the OP though.

 

[Skymonster]

Anyhow, this talk about the amount paid is irrelevant - the OP acknowledges they had a time restricted ticket (an Advance). The crux of the matter then is the Guard saying one thing, but Revenue saying (and acting on) another that is contradictory, and the lack of proof the OP has for the former. The OP has fallen down one of the major cracks in the revenue control system: verbal approval given to do something contrary to the rules, that cannot be proven to other railway staff later. While it doesn’t help the OP much, a more robust response to such a ticket check would have been to very politely but firmly insist that the ticket checker goes to consult the Guard (though I accept that could potentially raise issues too). The Guard could then of course deny giving approval… Sigh! While appeals are undoubtedly warranted assuming the OP’s account of what happened is accurate and there are no extenuating circumstances, I suspect this may end up costing the OP the “penalty” and leaving a very bad taste in their mouths as well as an extremely poor opinion of the railway.

 

[Brissle Girl]

We still haven’t had an answer as to whether the question they asked the guard was very clear in respect of the tickets they held.

 

[Hellsbells]

Did you show the guard your tickets?


Is this the guard, or were were you approached by someone else, like a revenue protection inspector?


What, exactly, did you explain? if the guard gave explicit permission to travel, having seen your tickets (did this happen?), why was this reason not accepted?

When the ticket inspector came round we told him that the guard said it was ok to get on the earlier train. We did not show the guard the tickets however. The train was only a couple of minutes away leaving. He then said that we shouldn’t have asked him as he worked for the train station and not northern rail!

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the ticket inspector came round we told him that the guard said it was ok to get on the earlier train. We did not show the guard the tickets however. The train was only a couple of minutes away leaving. He then said that we shouldn’t have asked him as he worked for the train station and not northern rail!

If you didn't show him the tickets then he won't have known what you were trying to do, and thus unfortunately you will need to pay these settlements.

 

[Hellsbells]

We still haven’t had an answer as to whether the question they asked the guard was very clear in respect of the tickets they held.

Hi. No we did not show the guard the tickets. There wasn’t much time before the train left. If he’d have said no then we would have just waited for the next one.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is a classic case of not asking the right question. Passengers need to not only know lots of ticket restrictions, they need to know the correct questions to ask too.

 

[WesternLancer]

When the ticket inspector came round we told him that the guard said it was ok to get on the earlier train. We did not show the guard the tickets however. The train was only a couple of minutes away leaving. He then said that we shouldn’t have asked him as he worked for the train station and not northern rail!

I'm a bit confused - So the person you asked if it was ok to get on the train was not actually the train guard but a member of staff at the station on the platform?

And perhaps it was the train guard who checked your ticket on the train and reported the ticket as not being valid on that train (by which time you were on the train), as opposed to a separate ticket or revenue protection inspector checking your ticket on the train.

I realise that there is no reason you would be immediately able to tell the difference between such job roles. FWIW I think a Guard is a job role that involves working on the train, but no reason the avg member of the public should be expected to know that.

I would also imagine that station staff at this station would also be employed by Northern. But is Hornbeam Park a staffed station? Northern's website seems to claim it is both unstaffed but has a ticket office (as well as ticket machines)... so that's confusing as well. EDit - apols I forgot the journey was from Leeds TO Hornbeam Park (tho many platform staff at Leeds are employed by Northern)

You have my sympathy by the way.

 

[AlterEgo]

When the ticket inspector came round we told him that the guard said it was ok to get on the earlier train. We did not show the guard the tickets however. The train was only a couple of minutes away leaving. He then said that we shouldn’t have asked him as he worked for the train station and not northern rail!

Then I'm afraid you don't really have a defence in that respect. It also sounds like the "guard" you are talking about wasn't a guard, but platform staff in Leeds. A guard is the person on board the train who operates the doors and inspects your tickets.

 

[Hellsbells]

We

The OP received a letter after the fact, not at the time, so it must be the latter.

I received the first letter and I replied giving my version of events. I then received a second letter and I responded again by letter. received no acknowledgment but then got a 3rd letter yesterday stating the the fine had now gone to £100 EACH plus the fare on top each.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would also imagine that station staff at this station would also be employed by Northern. But is Hornbeam Park a staffed station?

The OP was travelling from Leeds *to* Hornbeam Park.

We

I received the first letter and I replied giving my version of events. I then received a second letter and I responded again by letter. received no acknowledgment but then got a 3rd letter yesterday stating the the fine had now gone to £100 EACH plus the fare on top each.

Can you post copies of the correspondence with your details redacted?

 

[Hellsbells]

I'm a bit confused - So the person you asked if it was ok to get on the train was not actually the train guard but a member of staff at the station on the platform?

And perhaps it was the train guard who checked your ticket on the train and reported the ticket as not being valid on that train (by which time you were on the train), as opposed to a separate ticket or revenue protection inspector checking your ticket on the train.

I realise that there is no reason you would be immediately able to tell the difference between such job roles. FWIW I think a Guard is a job role that involves working on the train.

I would also imagine that station staff at this station would also be employed by Northern. But is Hornbeam Park a staffed station?

You have my sympathy by the way.

I don’t know if the person we asked got on the train but he was in uniform. There were 2 ticket inspectors on this train and they both conferred about the matter. My point is that when he was filling in the fine notice he explicitly said to us that we can appeal and state our case, the matter would be dropped and there would be no further action. We did exactly that, appealed twice by post, but due to the length of time taken the fine has now gone up to over £100 EACH. If I thought this would have happened we would have just (begrudgingly) paid the lower fine first and have done with it!!!

The OP was travelling from Leeds *to* Hornbeam Park.


Can you post copies of the correspondence with your details redacted?

Hornbeam Park is not a manned station

 

[WesternLancer]

We

I received the first letter and I replied giving my version of events. I then received a second letter and I responded again by letter. received no acknowledgment but then got a 3rd letter yesterday stating the the fine had now gone to £100 EACH plus the fare on top each.

So did earlier letter(s) offer to resolve the matter for less than £100 + the cost of the tickets?
If they did it's bad luck you did not encounter the forum earlier on because given what sounds like the circs of the case I think people would probably have advised you to take up this offer then, esp if the sum asked for was lower.

I think for people to advise you on how (if at all) it may be possible to pursue this further then we do need to see the copies of the correspondence you have been sent (because some of the options do not have a right of Appeal in any case).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t know if the person we asked got on the train but he was in uniform. There were 2 ticket inspectors on this train and they both conferred about the matter. My point is that when he was filling in the fine notice he explicitly said to us that we can appeal and state our case, the matter would be dropped and there would be no further action. We did exactly that, appealed twice by post, but due to the length of time taken the fine has now gone up to over £100 EACH. If I thought this would have happened we would have just (begrudgingly) paid the lower fine first and have done with it!!!

This does sound like a Penalty Fare.

As others have asked could you please upload a copy of ALL correspondance you have received and sent on this with any personal details or reference numbers obscured, including dates. Then we can know what we are dealing with.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Hi. No we did not show the guard the tickets. There wasn’t much time before the train left. If he’d have said no then we would have just waited for the next one.

In which case, I don’t think you have a defence. If you wanted to get permission to travel on a different train from that which your ticket is valid, you would have had to make it clear that your ticket was only valid for a specific train. Which it sounds like you didn’t do, (quite likely because you didn’t appreciate that it was restricted to one train?)

 

[WesternLancer]

This does sound like a Penalty Fare.

As others have asked could you please upload a copy of ALL correspondance you have received and sent on this with any personal details or reference numbers obscured, including dates. Then we can know what we are dealing with.

Yes, for the benefit of @Hellsbells if it was a Penalty Fare - and you used the Penalty Fare Appeals process (which is to an independent Appeals body not Northern Trains) this prevents the penalty being increased during the process of the Appeal (it stops the clock) - but yet you say the sum has been increased.

This is why we all need to be 100% clear about what you have been issued with.

I appreciate that this can all be confusing, but the benefit of the forum is that experts here will be able to explain your options, and if there are any, help you make use of them, but clarity on what you are dealing with is vital.

Apols as I am not meaning to sound pedantic - as I say you have my sympathy.