Yes, sorry - Saturdays and school holidays they are. There's still a small amount of the 171 route those 172 buses will duplicate.
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Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Bus News
- Thread starter GusB
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Yes, sorry - Saturdays and school holidays they are. There's still a small amount of the 171 route those 172 buses will duplicate.
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Trainman40083
Member
I think more people are getting wiser about Trentbarton. Yesterday re Ilkeston Flyer, the advised that temporary two way traffic lights had popped up at Dale Abbey delaying buses by up to 49 minutes. A simple check on bus times showed so sign of delays.. But it showed only 4 buses out of six on the route, so missing services which mysteriously led to a 49 minutes gap. I think there was nothing to Spondon for about an hour. Drivers must be well hacked off. Driving schools loving people wanting to drive. I see Sutton Versa 851 and Nottingham Volvo 741 on loan to work Red Arrow, and Nottingham Scania 669 on H1. Good job really. Think 734 broke, putting H1 back to 4 (pvr 6). It seems sad. Most people I know have just stopped using them, and if that is more widespread, then Trentbarton must be losing serious money. Be interesting to see what happens with the £2 fare at end of June..
tram21
Member
Every single trentbarton bus I go on is very busy, but perhaps the Ilkeston Flyer and H1 which I rarely use are more impacted. Nottingham based routes such as Indigo and Skylink have loadings better than ever, but they are incredibly reliable.
This council report of the transport focus shows Trent Barton are still rated highly. (The URL name doesn't reflect the contents!)
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/tram-extension-one-step-closer-3168883
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/tram-extension-one-step-closer-3168883
derbybusdepot
Member
- Joined
- 17 Dec 2015
- Messages
- 101
True, they seem busy whenever I see them. Remember they operate on mainly key trunk routes now, having cut out most of the less profitable routes over the years. Higher costs, £2 fare, fewer pass holders and fewer people buying period tickets may see lower profits now?
Seems Langley Mill, Derby and Kinch in Loughborough currently suffer with a lack of available vehicles.
They simply don't want to spend money adding additional vehicles to ensure all trips operate - why bother when you can run fewer buses and take more or less the same revenue? Most will wait and get on the next service that runs.
In Spondon, many will catch the i4 and indigo instead, so no loss there.
You also have franchising looming, leading to an apathetic approach in general.
joieman
Member
Franchising?
The suggestion is that they can't keep hold of their engineering staff. They can earn more driving the things.
Interesting...when I was at TB that situation was the other way round
markymark2000
On Moderation
I get the idea but there is no reason at all why Trent couldn't just drop the frequency of some routes to make the PVR better match vehicle availability and then you run less trips, use fewer buses but at least they are reliable. Long gone are the days of Trent being 'The really good bus company'.
Trainman40083
Member
You mean you have not read up on the plans that the East Midlands Combined Authority has after a mayor is elected on May 2nd? All across the country authorities are taking control of bus services, following an Act in 2017. Manchester, Liverpool, West Yorkshire, West Scotland, South Yorkshire to start with. I feel sure there are more
One might see full buses, but are they making a profit? Are they covering their overheads or even their direct costs? On the buses I see, passengers are mainly ENCTS passholders (revenue value).. Throw in some other passengers maybe already maxed out with caps, staff and their families on passes (plus any staff member who has been blocked from using his reciprocal pass, and quite frankly, I don't see a lot of profit. Sod all in fact. Zilch. Now you could say the end of prepaid fares like on the Mango etc and maybe replacement with £2 fares is killing "cash in hand". I would wager that when the Mango (card certainly) was in full flow, there was several million pounds in a bank account earning interest. Businesses can place money on the money markets for short periods for a return. Of course, at certain times a bus may appear to be busy, but is it across all the hours of operation? Is it making £50 an hour, every hour? If not, don't expect new buses. Hey, with franchising, the Government gives the Authority loads of money to buy new buses, and the franchise holder just runs the services. If performance drops, they get replaced. Just like on the railways. What makes me laugh, is that people honestly think the Government gives the bus operator the full difference between the full fare and the £2 fare. And there you have a problem, that affects country operators more than City operators. I'll assume there is an exit strategy after the General Election.
But, if you reduced the frequency how do you know that a "much better bus company" won't come in and just register services. There has been talk in the past of Trentbarton selling to another operator. Since 2020, the chances of that crashed to "not a chance". We saw what happened with Bournemouth and others. There has to be a buyer or the "vultures" circle and just set up with no liabilities -just like with Wilko Stores. Why does it happen? Because loyal customers walk away. People who have choice of mode make that choice (but many wish they didn't have to). So, if your costs start rising, where do you go? Try to attract new business, maybe people turn from cars and try the bus. Do they keep catching the bus if it breaks down, doesn't turn up? You only have to look at some of the comments TB and Kinchbus get on social media. Trust me, the only people who complain are those that care. Over time, they walk away.
On a different subject, why are so many Red Arrow coaches off the road and for so long? Can't get parts, can't afford parts, can't afford to even run the coaches (cos Versas are cheaper). Not a good image for what is claimed to be a premium service. But TB spin it nicely. It is a premium service because it doesn't stop much.
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markymark2000
On Moderation
There's an even higher change given the current level of cancellations, there should become a point where the traffic commissioners call them up for a public inquiry and then they risk losing their licence for not running services as per the registration or they risk huge fines.
I agree with you. If they reduce the frequency though and become more reliable, people are less likely to switch from buses to cars/taxis and you may attract more users because of the service being reliable. A reliable 15 minute service is much better than an unreliable 10 minute service.
derbybusdepot
Member
- Joined
- 17 Dec 2015
- Messages
- 101
Seems there is no risk of a public enquiry, they're not interested. It seems lack of buses is a valid excuse not to operate the services you have registered, like it or lump it. Do bus operators still get some form of funding for the number of services registered? Maybe this would be effected if they reduced frequencies?
And whilst in such a mess, councils are in discussions with Trent barton to enhance frequencies on Ilkeston flyer and mickleover - on top of the skylink Derby frequency increase at the end.of this month.
A performance based approach to any funding would be much better approach, and a better system to ensure registered services are operated. This wouldn't have to be anti operator either, perhaps allow operators to make changes to frequencies with less notice.
Trainman40083
Member
In terms of your first comment. What happens if the Commissioners find all bus companies are doing the same? I feel sorry for the "far better bus operators" that are under the radar, but delivering an excellent service . I think the frequency change is now too late. Far too late. Yes it would make the services more reliable. But maybe buses would then be overcrowded and people could not get on. Do you end the £2 fare and make people pay more. Would you likely win back all those former passengers who have gone elsewhere, and maybe love their alternative. Why did those former passengers walk away? Why did the company not ask them or listen to them? Why indeed. Not like they can ask them now
Yes, but how do you increase frequency when you don't have the buses, the drivers (lol), the mechanics, parts? Hang on, you get someone else to pay . Party time. Need to have very robust KPIs, and no excuses
MCR247
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Nov 2008
- Messages
- 9,599
I think it was mentioned in this thread before that these type of coaches are (now) quite known for their gearbox issues with other operators too.
Trainman40083
Member
Should have got rid then, or not bought them in the first place.
m79900
Member
So are we going to get unified buses in Derbyshire like the 'Bee Network' in Manchester?
Trainman40083
Member
From what I have seen so far, you might wonder. There seems to have been some legal challenges in other areas, but all seemed to fail. Imagine a headline "keep your Council Tax down by using the bus". We seem to be in a loop. Bus companies will only run profitable services, new housing estates have no bus services, residents have to have multiple cars to go anywhere, due to lack of alternatives, build bigger roads, more flyovers, which leads to more houses, more cars, which makes for unreliable buses, leading to less passengers, leading to more cars, that get bigger, that don't fit into parking spaces, that makes people shop elsewhere. But one hospital has a solution. Build an even bigger multi storey car park , so more people can park so they make appointments on time, thereby saving the hospital money and giving them more money. I guess then, the traffic keeps getting worse.
STINT47
Member
When I worked at Trentbarton there was talk of buying some second hand coaches but this was rejected by management as they belive that second hand buses would ruin the brand image.
There was slso the suggestion of reducing frequencies but once again this was not considered an option due to the impact it would have on thd brand and their reputation.
There is a feeling within Trentbarton at least amongst the senior team that they must in no accounts admit that the buses are causing the cancellations. This was reflected in social media and customer services being told to advise that cancellations were mainly due to driver shortages if people complained.
Whilst I worked for them I had access to an internal system called Bodcast, which shows a live service starus. Listed on each route is any cancellations and the reason why. Nearly all said cancelled due to no bus. Meanwhile the customers got told it was due to driver shortages, which is/was a national issue and outside of Trentbartons control.
Therefore the brand image of the really good bus company was maintained at least in the eyes of the managment.
There was slso the suggestion of reducing frequencies but once again this was not considered an option due to the impact it would have on thd brand and their reputation.
There is a feeling within Trentbarton at least amongst the senior team that they must in no accounts admit that the buses are causing the cancellations. This was reflected in social media and customer services being told to advise that cancellations were mainly due to driver shortages if people complained.
Whilst I worked for them I had access to an internal system called Bodcast, which shows a live service starus. Listed on each route is any cancellations and the reason why. Nearly all said cancelled due to no bus. Meanwhile the customers got told it was due to driver shortages, which is/was a national issue and outside of Trentbartons control.
Therefore the brand image of the really good bus company was maintained at least in the eyes of the managment.
It'd be interesting as the first more rural area. There is perhaps more of an argument to be made for franchising in urban areas than in rural areas, and the boundary interfaces would be more complex than Gtr Manchester and W. Yorks.
Trainman40083
Member
So these days, all the staff , passengers etc all know that the buses are done. They have killed the brand and everyone but them knows it. Passengers should never be lied to, nor should drivers have to lie to them, because once found out, the trust has gone. Kill the brand, you have nothing to offer, I guess. Gerald Ratner did that with jewellery.
Got to say, I'd have used buses far more if there had been an Oyster card style system, with daily caps. Just tap on and tap off, whatever you decided to do. One cap for Derby depending on whose buses you used, one for say Trentbarton only, one for Arriva. Everyone tap on and tap off, even ENCTS passengers (who could get charged before 09.30 etc). Top up on line, making sure you've not been ripped off, more discount the more you use it. Wouldn't matter whose bus you used, if it gave certainty of travel. Good example might be like in Nottingham to get to Beeston. TB, NCT, tram, CT4N, it wouldn't matter. So when one operator didn't run you just used another. I think post COVID, the way forward has to be any public transport versus the car.
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derbybusdepot
Member
- Joined
- 17 Dec 2015
- Messages
- 101
And of course, after telling people their buses are cancelled because of driver shortage for over 2 years why wouldn't they believe it! Become the norm. acceptable.
TR673
Member
I do this exact journey already using that logic with the Robin Hood card, in either direction. Usually the choice is between NCT's 36 and the tram, but have sometimes used TrentBarton and even the train. Sure, the fare cap is more if you use more than one operator, but it's a small trade-off between slightly more convenience (go multi operator) or a slightly lower price (stay with a single operator).
Big gap in the 36 service? (it's not uncommon) Use the tram
Trams packed full and standing? Use the 36
Using another Trent service that day? Use the indigo
Raining? Use whichever's closest!
m79900
Member
That seems ridiculous to me. If they were refurbished, then only a tiny number of passengers would actually notice. The buses are 9 years old, so are hardly new themselves anyway.
Surely it's more relevant in rural areas, because services are less likely to be profitable, and support would be more needed.
Trainman40083
Member
Exactly. You make your choice based on what works on the day. For many others, they have to walk past a car to get to the stop. If the choice is suspect, you go in the car. I often walk.
Maybe we are back to the profitable services funding the lesser services. I seem to think there are some Trentbarton services where buses only work at peak times , because journeys take longer. I guess many years ago, it is those buses that provided lesser services. But they are all in different colours now, and you kill a brand if you use it on another route to cover a breakdown. Just say "driver shortage" and many just believe it, cos they are the really good bus company, who are honest and trustworthy... Just like the Post Office and Fujitsu. They were honest too
You know, your comment reminded me of an article about shops. Everyone uses self service tills. It will bring the prices down. Great way to cut staff costs. Hang on, 20% of our customers have walked away, theft has increased, we can't put prices down. Where have our customers gone? Must have gone to Aldi, best drop prices to compete.. But where have those customers gone? Same with banks. People clammering for banks, yet the banks say no-one uses them. You go in a bank there is a queue. Our local Post Office manager was saying the other day, just how much of his business was banking related now. But then, you get a shift in customers and shops shut cos of lack of footfall. In the end, customers don't believe anything they are told is fact and just shop elsewhere.
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As has already been said this already exists and has for many years in the robinhood card.
Successful (pre COVID) public transport improvement bids included extending this or a simular system to Derby so I assume this is still on the cards but I suspect is awaiting the forming of the East Midlands Mayor organisation.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There's even a TfL-like contactless system in Nottingham, but unfortunately TrentBarton don't participate. Not sure if this is because they have to have touching out or for some other reason.
Nottingham has generally made the best of the deregulated bus environment. Obviously it helps that they have a majority stake in NCT - even though they have to treat them as arms length by law, the company is driven by social objectives rather than a pure profit motive so there's a good degree of co-operation. TrentBarton has been similar until recently, perhaps because NCT keep them honest, and I get the impression the problems reported here are mainly not on the local routes around Nottingham. So it may be that Nottingham would want to keep things roughly as they are, but things might differ elsewhere in the region.
Trainman40083
Member
Interesting. Maybe TB have more to lose where NCT also run. Would not take a lot for a customer to just use a Robin Hood card on a different operator. Often see complaints about the Keyworth where people say they always run in pairs. Also, maybe a greater frequency plays a part, but then the population is greater.
tram21
Member
That's certainly true. I often travel on trentbarton outside of Nottingham for fun, but all my essential journeys are on Nottingham local routes, namely the Indigo, i4 and Skylink Nottingham. The only disruption is due to traffic congestion and honestly it is unheard of for a service to be missing. 100 minutes late maybe, but not running, never!
Maybe they try harder because there is more competition, for example passengers for Beeston from Nottingham will generally aim for the Indigo as the fastest option, but if the 36 turns up first, then NCT get the fare. Travelling from Smalley to Derby on the H1? Well no competition so no need to try.
Yeah I'd say the Keyworth is probably the only route with problems often seen on here, due to a busy route with too many passenger stops for the (old) timetable and too much congestion. Hopefully it will improve after the upcoming service changes.
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That's a reason why yourbus was quite good since they challenged the bus company's and did make arriva have a fleet update to try get passengers to stay with them. If they have competition Trent would definitely try up their game however in derby they don't really have much competition except maybe with transpeak
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Other than for the first couple of stops over the Trent, NCT's competition for the Keyworth is only the 5 and to a limited extent the 8 and 9, all of which take less direct routes and are less frequent. I'd guess all the other TB routes radiating from Nottingham (leaving aside Red Arrow as a bit of a special case) have more direct NCT competition.