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Thames-Clyde Express in the 1970's

Taunton

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I wonder how the used laundry from the southbound sleeper was dealt with during the period when the sleeping cars only ran north of Nottingham. My guess would be that it would have been bagged up and sent back to Glasgow on the following night's northbound train and then dealt with at Polmadie.
The same way that the used bedding from the Down service from Paddington to Plymouth was dealt with, which was bagged up and sent back to London the next night in the van. Only an accountant then withdrew the van, so it was piled instead in the forward end vestibule. This was the laundry that caught fire in the Taunton Sleeper Fire.

Van was back the following night.
 
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Magdalia

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Was there not an issue with the later withdrawal of the sleeper routed Northampton to Market Harborough, that some felt it required the full official closure procedure, although it served no stations anywhere near the line?

I certainly recall seeing an official closure notice posted at Market Harborough in the mid 70s, mentioning trains at (out of reach) obscure times of the morning and night!
Passenger Services over Unusual Lines sheds some light here.


PSUL Document Archive​


The 1968-69 amendments show that the diversion of the sleeper to run to/from Euston starting in January 1969 not May 1969. This coincides with the closure of the Waverley route and the end of the sleepers between St Pancras and Edinburgh.

new entry: Market Harborough No. 3 ‡ – Northampton Castle No. 5 {from 6 January 1969 Euston  Glasgow sleepers diverted to this route} 2250 SX, 2125 SO, 2250 SUN Glasgow Central – Euston 2100, 2100 SUN Euston – Glasgow Central ‡ Market Harborough No. 3 box re-named Market Harborough box 20 Oct 1968

The 1972-73 amendments show the parliamentary train as follows:

new entry: Northampton No. 2 Junction – Market Harborough Junction {reopened 10 July 1972} 0253 SX Northampton – Leicester

The 1973-74 original issue has:

2F08 0010 MX Northampton-Leicester

The 1973-74 amendments show:

Northampton No. 2 Junction – Market Harborough Junction: heading to read Northampton No. 4 – Market Harborough Junction: Withdrawn with effect from 27 August 1973

So it looks like the sleeper ran January 1969 to May 1972 and the parliamentary train July 1972 to August 1973.
 

Rescars

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I would guess that at least latterly it was formed mainly of mail and parcels vans with just one or two sleeping cars and a few ordinary seated coaches.

I wonder how the used laundry from the southbound sleeper was dealt with during the period when the sleeping cars only ran north of Nottingham. My guess would be that it would have been bagged up and sent back to Glasgow on the following night's northbound train and then dealt with at Polmadie.
British Transport Hotels had a major contract for dealing with sleeping car linen at its three laundries. My guess is the linen found its way to the most convenient one. I know one was in Willesden, next to the WCML. Can anyone recall the location of the other two? I think one was in Scotland and all three had been inherited from the LMS, but memories dim with the passing decades.

The same way that the used bedding from the Down service from Paddington to Plymouth was dealt with, which was bagged up and sent back to London the next night in the van. Only an accountant then withdrew the van, so it was piled instead in the forward end vestibule. This was the laundry that caught fire in the Taunton Sleeper Fire.

Van was back the following night.
Presumably en route to Willesden!
 

jfollows

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So it looks like the sleeper ran January 1969 to May 1972 and the parliamentary train July 1972 to August 1973.
1/5/72 to 6/5/73 Section A working timetable:
1D26 01:40 News Euston-Nottingham Carrington St. E600; D455 from Northampton 02L43-02L53

EDIT And the change from E600 to D455 doesn't mean that the train lost weight when the locomotives changed, its just a timing load thing, simply that the electric section wasn't timed more aggressively because there was no need.
 

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Tester

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The 1972-73 amendments show the parliamentary train as follows:


The 1973-74 original issue has:

2F08 0010 MX Northampton-Leicester

So it looks like the sleeper ran January 1969 to May 1972 and the parliamentary train July 1972 to August 1973.
Thank you - most interesting. I had it nearly right from memory!

I'm pretty sure it would have been after August 1973 when I tried for the parliamentary, which would explain its absence, but whenever it was it was still shown in the timetable.
 

jfollows

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Thank you - most interesting. I had it nearly right from memory!

I'm pretty sure it would have been after August 1973 when I tried for the parliamentary, which would explain its absence, but whenever it was it was still shown in the timetable.
6/5/74 to 4/5/75 there was 6F08 00:12 MX Parcels Northampton-Leicester D700 but this wouldn't have been advertised since it was a class 6 train. I don't have the previous year's working timetable.

EDIT But post 32 above implies it was the same train, previously 2F08.
 
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Tester

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6/5/74 to 4/5/75 there was 6F08 00:12 MX Parcels Northampton-Leicester D700 but this wouldn't have been advertised since it was a class 6 train. I don't have the previous year's working timetable.
If that had been around I would likely have tried my luck (and in those days might well have got away with it!).

But my memory is of no likely candidate being visible.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I would guess that at least latterly it was formed mainly of mail and parcels vans with just one or two sleeping cars and a few ordinary seated coaches.
Two sleeping cars - although I only ever saw one in use (the SLC) and I think 5 seated coaches (never particularly busy, I always got sole occupancy of a compartment), and at least six vans.
 

30907

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1/5/72 to 6/5/73 Section A working timetable:
1D26 01:40 News Euston-Nottingham Carrington St. E600; D455 from Northampton 02L43-02L53

EDIT And the change from E600 to D455 doesn't mean that the train lost weight when the locomotives changed, its just a timing load thing, simply that the electric section wasn't timed more aggressively because there was no need.
And I would guess there was a BSK in the train even before it became a Parly - very common on such trains, whether or not advertised.
 

Roger1973

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Here's the maximum load table for Wellingborough to Clay Cross from the 1975-76 Section CK working timetable:

Thanks.

It's an aspect of railway operation that hadn't occurred to me, but obvious in hindsight.

At the risk of being told off for taking the thread off-topic, how would the train crew estimate the weight of the train?

The unladen weight of each carriage or parcels van is a known thing, but there would be a difference between a lightly loaded (passenger) train, or one with all the seats occupied, or a 'full + standing' load, not to mention the potential for a heavily loaded brake van if the train was heading to or from a holiday resort, or had a lot of newspapers or parcels. And of course this could vary after each station call.

Or was there an assumption based on an average load per carriage?
 

30907

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Thanks.

It's an aspect of railway operation that hadn't occurred to me, but obvious in hindsight.

At the risk of being told off for taking the thread off-topic, how would the train crew estimate the weight of the train?

The unladen weight of each carriage or parcels van is a known thing, but there would be a difference between a lightly loaded (passenger) train, or one with all the seats occupied, or a 'full + standing' load, not to mention the potential for a heavily loaded brake van if the train was heading to or from a holiday resort, or had a lot of newspapers or parcels. And of course this could vary after each station call.

Or was there an assumption based on an average load per carriage?
Timing loads for passenger/parcel trains were always based on tare weights, but they were i nevitably approximat. With 16 passengers = 1 ton, the variation between light and heavy loadings would only amount to 10% of the total train weight, and that's about the same as the extra weight of Commonwealth bogies over Mk1, or indeed the variation among coach types.
Goods traffic did distinguish roughly between empty, loaded, mineral and so on. Someone will no doubt quote the (steam-era) details.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks.

It's an aspect of railway operation that hadn't occurred to me, but obvious in hindsight.

At the risk of being told off for taking the thread off-topic, how would the train crew estimate the weight of the train?

The unladen weight of each carriage or parcels van is a known thing, but there would be a difference between a lightly loaded (passenger) train, or one with all the seats occupied, or a 'full + standing' load, not to mention the potential for a heavily loaded brake van if the train was heading to or from a holiday resort, or had a lot of newspapers or parcels. And of course this could vary after each station call.

Or was there an assumption based on an average load per carriage?
I don't know about parcels/newspaper trains, but for passenger workings the timing loads assumed:

35 tonnes per coach

Sleepers were taken as 40.
 

jfollows

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Indeed.
WCML started out with E455 as standard, so 13 coaches, but was later modified to E385, 11 coaches, which was more realistic. Manchester Pullman was E315 so slightly faster timings.
But nobody actually weighed the trains, it was all assumption.

EDIT The Northampton electrically-hauled services had special notes allowing them to use classes 81-85 with full loads in contradiction to the standard load tables which would have required them to reduce the number of coaches to keep to the timing load (E455).
 
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Magdalia

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the potential for a heavily loaded brake van if the train was heading to or from a holiday resort, or had a lot of newspapers or parcels.
My recollection is that vans used for mail and news had "maximum load 1½ tons evenly distributed" stencilled on them.

The people doing the loading would know roughly how many mailbags or newspaper bundles weighed 1½ tons.
 

70014IronDuke

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The M&EE staff in the Carlisle area were very good - had a bit to do with them in the late 1980's and their output was excellent - every single train through the main station was thoroughly examined and attention given - and the father / son team at Haredendale were there to deal the lime / stone traffics but kept a close eye on anything passing through and often went well above their job description when neccessary.

Interesting. Got any more on this story, I mean, why the work there was so good? Good management team, or just a random set of tradesmen who took pride in a good job?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Interesting. Got any more on this story, I mean, why the work there was so good? Good management team, or just a random set of tradesmen who took pride in a good job?

Sectorisation caused a concentration on costs and outputs. Too much hidden stuff under regional control - e.g a valuable 37 stuck at a depot due to no urgency in chasing spares and getting it back into service.

It was decided that Carlisle Currock would look after 90%+ of the Speedlink fleet for intermediate and above maintenance. (good location for train services which had some spare space on them) - so as a middle manager I was set off to set this up and make sure things happened.

The Area Maintenance Manager resented the interference , however his direct reports could see that this was the future and pledged co-operation and did so very well. So we put some modest investment in - engaged with the staff in an open and honest way , did some "soft" things like getting them to design a depot logo which was applied to "their" stock and later named 47588 "Carlisle Currock" by the Mayor (who turned out to be a railwayman) - and upped quality targets , noteably cleaning wagons and a zero graffiti campaign. Took some customers to show them how their wagons were maintained etc etc.

The staff were excellent and were proud enough of their job and even more so when they could see their input into business (though frankly the economics of Speedlink were dire !) , they were bought some time until inevitable changes - some external - kicked in. Some of the outbased staff were included indirectly - Railfreight then had a purge on improving staff accomodation - with a fund available - so Currock was improved modestly - but the tale of the SHap C/W examiners was pleased as a special case. They had a shack with a coal fire , no real amenities and this pair looked after the passing traffic (along with the Traffic Inspector at Penrith) - so that a passing Freightliner with a shifted load would be pulled in and put right , ditto any passenger train in trouble)

I was so appalled at their working conditions - I sent the architect up to design a decent , central heated office etc and some proper storage facilities , running water etc. Not been past it for a few years but it was there pre-covid. I got a very nice "thank you" from the staff concerned , - and the message trickled through the Area as well.
 

Cheshire Scot

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It was decided that Carlisle Currock would look after 90%+ of the Speedlink fleet for intermediate and above maintenance. (good location for train services which had some spare space on them) - so as a middle manager I was set off to set this up and make sure things happened.

The Area Maintenance Manager resented the interference , however his direct reports could see that this was the future and pledged co-operation and did so very well. So we put some modest investment in - engaged with the staff in an open and honest way , did some "soft" things like getting them to design a depot logo which was applied to "their" stock and later named 47588 "Carlisle Currock" by the Mayor (who turned out to be a railwayman) - and upped quality targets , noteably cleaning wagons and a zero graffiti campaign. Took some customers to show them how their wagons were maintained etc etc.

The staff were excellent and were proud enough of their job and even more so when they could see their input into business (though frankly the economics of Speedlink were dire !) , they were bought some time until inevitable changes - some external - kicked in. Some of the outbased staff were included indirectly - Railfreight then had a purge on improving staff accomodation - with a fund available - so Currock was improved modestly - but the tale of the SHap C/W examiners was pleased as a special case. They had a shack with a coal fire , no real amenities and this pair looked after the passing traffic (along with the Traffic Inspector at Penrith) - so that a passing Freightliner with a shifted load would be pulled in and put right , ditto any passenger train in trouble)
Currock certainly had an excellent reputation during my years with Speedlink.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Currock certainly had an excellent reputation during my years with Speedlink.

Apart from maintaining wagons - they did some modest conversions too on timber wagons (OTA's) , and some conversions on barrier wagons for VDA's which were used for the start of LUL tube and surface stocks (which turned into some lucrative business over a few years , with matching brakevans) , using the fact they were in need of painting anyway , to turn them out in their red/white/blue corporate colours - the "Orsman" livery.
 

70014IronDuke

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Sectorisation caused a concentration on costs and outputs. Too much hidden stuff under regional control - e.g a valuable 37 stuck at a depot due to no urgency in chasing spares and getting it back into service.

It was decided that Carlisle Currock would look after 90%+ of the Speedlink fleet for intermediate and above maintenance. (good location for train services which had some spare space on them) - so as a middle manager I was set off to set this up and make sure things happened.

The Area Maintenance Manager resented the interference , however his direct reports could see that this was the future and pledged co-operation and did so very well. So we put some modest investment in - engaged with the staff in an open and honest way , did some "soft" things like getting them to design a depot logo which was applied to "their" stock and later named 47588 "Carlisle Currock" by the Mayor (who turned out to be a railwayman) - and upped quality targets , noteably cleaning wagons and a zero graffiti campaign. Took some customers to show them how their wagons were maintained etc etc.

The staff were excellent and were proud enough of their job and even more so when they could see their input into business (though frankly the economics of Speedlink were dire !) , they were bought some time until inevitable changes - some external - kicked in. Some of the outbased staff were included indirectly - Railfreight then had a purge on improving staff accomodation - with a fund available - so Currock was improved modestly - but the tale of the SHap C/W examiners was pleased as a special case. They had a shack with a coal fire , no real amenities and this pair looked after the passing traffic (along with the Traffic Inspector at Penrith) - so that a passing Freightliner with a shifted load would be pulled in and put right , ditto any passenger train in trouble)

I was so appalled at their working conditions - I sent the architect up to design a decent , central heated office etc and some proper storage facilities , running water etc. Not been past it for a few years but it was there pre-covid. I got a very nice "thank you" from the staff concerned , - and the message trickled through the Area as well.
Excellent little case study of how to motivate folk at all levels. Thanks for this, just a shame about the bigger picture regarding Speedlink.
 

MadMac

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Apart from maintaining wagons - they did some modest conversions too on timber wagons (OTA's) , and some conversions on barrier wagons for VDA's which were used for the start of LUL tube and surface stocks (which turned into some lucrative business over a few years , with matching brakevans) , using the fact they were in need of painting anyway , to turn them out in their red/white/blue corporate colours - the "Orsman" livery.
Currock also did some of the DMU parcels vans conversions. Also refurbished the moleplough cable train.
 

HurdyGurdy

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Many thanks to all who replied to my original query. As it's 50 yrs or so and should be celebrated, I've decided I'll travel (an approximation of) the old route later this Summer. I have a free Northern pass which will get me from Nottingham to Carlisle via Barnsley. I know that's not the 1974 route, but it does follow the old Midland route from Normanton towards Leeds, so I'll make that work.

I have a soft-spot for the Long Drag. My grandfather was a platelayer on the Midland (Carnforth) and was full of stories about snow clearing and idyllic summer days on the Drag. In the 1920's, snow clearing meant weeks away from home, living in a mess coach, with hamper of food my grandmother had made. A very different world,

Thanks, especially @jfollows regarding timetables, PDF. I will be subscribing.
 

WesternLancer

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Many thanks to all who replied to my original query. As it's 50 yrs or so and should be celebrated, I've decided I'll travel (an approximation of) the old route later this Summer. I have a free Northern pass which will get me from Nottingham to Carlisle via Barnsley. I know that's not the 1974 route, but it does follow the old Midland route from Normanton towards Leeds, so I'll make that work.

I have a soft-spot for the Long Drag. My grandfather was a platelayer on the Midland (Carnforth) and was full of stories about snow clearing and idyllic summer days on the Drag. In the 1920's, snow clearing meant weeks away from home, living in a mess coach, with hamper of food my grandmother had made. A very different world,

Thanks, especially @jfollows regarding timetables, PDF. I will be subscribing.
Look forward to reading a report of your journey - nice idea!
I'm pretty sure there is a Sunday Nottingham to Carlisle through train still, but you have to be in Nottingham fairly early on a Sunday to get it.

Would you have to travel on the EMR services via Corby / Harringworth Viaduct / Melton to get a better approximation of the south of Nottingham route? Are they still operating a daily service that way now. (I guess by 1974 this wasn't any longer the route taken however).

Interesting points about snow clearing as recounted by your grandfather. I'd have assumed they would use more local labour so interesting to to learn that would not necessarily be the case.
 

70014IronDuke

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Look forward to reading a report of your journey - nice idea!
I'm pretty sure there is a Sunday Nottingham to Carlisle through train still, but you have to be in Nottingham fairly early on a Sunday to get it.
Not any longer, alas. It's been cut back - starts at Sheffield now.
Would you have to travel on the EMR services via Corby / Harringworth Viaduct / Melton to get a better approximation of the south of Nottingham route? Are they still operating a daily service that way now. (I guess by 1974 this wasn't any longer the route taken however).
The Thames-Clyde was usually routed through Trent and Leicester - didn't take the 'back road'. (That was for The Waverley, at least most timetables that I'm aware of. (Sorry to rain on the party! :'()
 

Taunton

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The Thames-Clyde was usually routed through Trent and Leicester - didn't take the 'back road'. (That was for The Waverley, at least most timetables that I'm aware of).
I seem to recollect one or the other of these named trains described in an old magazine around 1960, that (possibly only for a year or so) the Down train routed through Melton Mowbray, Nottingham and Derby, stopping at Trent. The Up equivalent routed more directly via the Erewash Valley and Leicester, also stopping at Trent, so both Up and Down trains stopped at the same platform there, heading in the same direction.
 

LMS 4F

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I saw The Thames Clyde many times in
the late 50s at Bedford, where we lived. I also have in mind, I am 76 so the memory is not always the best, getting up early to see what we at least called the Starlight express which I believe was an overnight from Scotland. Can anyone confirm this or have I dreamt it?
 

Taunton

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the late 50s at Bedford, where we lived. I also have in mind, I am 76 so the memory is not always the best, getting up early to see what we at least called the Starlight express which I believe was an overnight from Scotland. Can anyone confirm this or have I dreamt it?
The Starlight Specials ran at exactly this period, Glasgow to London. There is a whole book about them


They deliberately did not use Euston or Glasgow Central, so ran from St Enoch via the Midland route, but certainly in some years ended up at Marylebone. They were well known among enthusiasts (and thus doubtless yourselves) for being double headed steam (as in the cover photo on the book above), well into the times when Peaks had taken over Midland passenger services, and were regularly described in magazines of the era. That cover photo has a Corkerhill 4-4-0 as pilot, which I doubt went south of Carlisle, and being in daylight and with a headboard for the LMR will have been at the start of the run south, in high summer.
 
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D6130

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I saw The Thames Clyde many times in
the late 50s at Bedford, where we lived. I also have in mind, I am 76 so the memory is not always the best, getting up early to see what we at least called the Starlight express which I believe was an overnight from Scotland. Can anyone confirm this or have I dreamt it?
The Starlight Express was, IIRC, a cheap overnight seated-only service which ran in the late 1950s/early 1960s from Glasgow St Enoch to London St Pancras via Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, Leeds and Nottingham. It was a bit like the Nightrider, which ran between Aberdeen and Kings Cross in the early 1980s, but using steam-hauled Mark 1 stock.
 

yeti

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When I lived in Leicester in the late 1970's I have a vague memory of a Kettering to Glasgow night service, maybe Fridays only. I think I was told its purpose was to serve the Scottish steel workers who came to operate the Corby steelworks. Can anyone confirm this?
 

WesternLancer

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Not any longer, alas. It's been cut back - starts at Sheffield now.

The Thames-Clyde was usually routed through Trent and Leicester - didn't take the 'back road'. (That was for The Waverley, at least most timetables that I'm aware of. (Sorry to rain on the party! :'()
Thanks for both of those bits of info. Shame about the Sunday service I must say. I did it both ways a few years back.
 

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