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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

Bill57p9

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I'm pretty sure LSL's Mk1 vehicles have had major structural work carried out in this regard.
Most if not all mainline Mk1 operators*, including LSL and WCRC, have regulation 4 (crashworthiness) exemptions agreed with ORR until March 2028, so may not have had major structural work carried out.

LSL’s is here: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...ption-certificate-for-locomotive-services.pdf
This stipulates:
The Company must ensure that the Rolling Stock:
(i) have buckeye couplers fitted with shelf brackets (except when coupled to a
locomotive not fitted with buckeye couplers);
(ii) have crash pillars of an equivalent or greater strength than the original British
Rail design;

The operator must ensure that, when formed as a rake, the Rolling Stock must have
the same buffing height (within maintenance limits).


* regulation 4 (crashworthiness) and 5 (CDL) exemptions cover stock in passenger service. I do not believe exemptions are required for crew vehicles. Which could raise an interesting question around a non complaint vehicle for crew use in the middle of a rake.
 
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Robin Procter

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I agree, too many hysterical supporters of WCRC on here.

I work in the railway industry and all of my colleagues agree that WCRC dont have a leg to stand on here.

But maybe thats because all my colleagues actively work in trying to make the railway more efficient and safer.

All the people on here going on about common sense. The number of trainspotters you see right on the platform edge as a train comes in, would be in the place they would get hit by a swinging door.

Its time for them to grow up and accept the world has moved on.
.... I fundamentally agree with you and respect that many of those in the rail industry are trying to make the railway more efficient and safer.

However, I don't see any of the WCRC supporters (including myself) being "hysterical" but being calm in expressing their opinions. [I wonder if calling a male "hysterical" ranks with calling a female "emotional" in this crazy PC world :D]

The term "trainspotters", especially in this context, is somewhat derogatory. You will find that most railway enthusiasts are responsible and stay behind the yellow markings etc but it's always the few that spoil it for the others - Rather like the window hangers.

I expect and hope that we agree with each other that common sense is always of prime importance. I wish the bureaucrats had more common sense and less of a blanket rule mentality.

Ultimately, WCRC will have to comply in one form or another and many of the opinions expressed in this thread are somewhat academic and merely fodder for internet warriors.
 

Blindtraveler

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And do you know something, I'm about to report my own post here but perhaps this is where we should for now at least put this discussion to bed given the very little of import that is new has emerged or is likely to do so anytime soon on this issue and those who want to speculate about jacobite or other west coast railway company touring operations might find it better to do so in separate threads, this one is just going around in circles now and we get nearer a nearer to the point where I as someone who dips in and out is feeling more and more like someone somewhere is going to be offended sooner rather than later and indeed may have already happened
 

Wolfie

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.... I fundamentally agree with you and respect that many of those in the rail industry are trying to make the railway more efficient and safer.

However, I don't see any of the WCRC supporters (including myself) being "hysterical" but being calm in expressing their opinions. [I wonder if calling a male "hysterical" ranks with calling a female "emotional" in this crazy PC world :D]

The term "trainspotters", especially in this context, is somewhat derogatory. You will find that most railway enthusiasts are responsible and stay behind the yellow markings etc but it's always the few that spoil it for the others - Rather like the window hangers.

I expect and hope that we agree with each other that common sense is always of prime importance. I wish the bureaucrats had more common sense and less of a blanket rule mentality.

Ultimately, WCRC will have to comply in one form or another and many of the opinions expressed in this thread are somewhat academic and merely fodder for internet warriors.
You go into a Court and state that you applied common sense as it was of prime importance and to hell with the law and see where that gets you.
 

Cowley

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Yes I think that’ll do us for now.

When there’s a bit more news, report this post and we’ll look into reopening it.

Thanks everyone
 

Wolfie

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WCRC's attempt to use support from the tourist industry in the Highlands is NOT going well for them....

Tourism reliant businesses in the Scottish Highlands have slammed the operator of a "lucrative" steam train service for refusing to comply with safety requirements that would allow it to continue to operate.

West Coast Railways (WCR) has suspended the Jacobite service, which runs from Fort William to Mallaig in West Lochaber bringing hundreds of tourists each day in peak season.
 

cf111

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WCRC's attempt to use support from the tourist industry in the Highlands is NOT going well for them....

I'm not remotely surprised. WCRC's attitude in Mallaig/Ft. Wm. is that the populace should be in thrall to them because they operate the Jacobite. These are canny Highland business owners, not uneducated bumpkins who can't understand at least the jist of a High Court judgement.

Interesting comments from the chap who runs the boat tours, who quite rightly notes that he has to comply with the regulations laid down by the MCA which he does with significantly less resource than WCRC.
 
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Would some kind of system where stewards have to open the door with a key that locks behind them after it shuts be acceptable to ORR?
 

43096

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Would some kind of system where stewards have to open the door with a key that locks behind them after it shuts be acceptable to ORR?
No. The regulation is very clear that it is centrally controlled locking that is required. Extract from the legislation is below.

5.—(1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of any rolling stock on a railway if the rolling stock has hinged doors for use by passengers for boarding and alighting from the train (other than doors which have a means of centrally locking them in a closed position).
 

Blindtraveler

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I'm not remotely surprised. WCRC's attitude in Mallaig/Ft. Wm. is that the populace should be in thrall to them because they operate the Jacobite. These are canny Highland business owners, not uneducated bumpkins who can't understand at least the jist of a High Court judgement.

Interesting comments from the chap who runs the boat tours, who quite rightly notes that he has to comply with the regulations laid down by the MCA which he does with significantly less resource than WCRC.
Likewise and unsurprised that this latest attempt to smarm their way out of it by garnering support from the countless businesses of all shapes sizes and varieties who benefit directly or indirectly from jacobite customers has gone down like a particularly soggy breakfast pancake

Tourism businesses in particular no an awful lot about complying with rules be they set by local authorities or statutory bodies or national government and for this particular attitude especially that where it's assumed that businesses should be grateful for the custom generated will cut no ice with many or indeed all of them. But seriously though please now this thread has been reopened can we please not go round in the same circles that we've been going around for the last 33 also pages and stick to the current and ongoing developments on the situation? It got a bit hot in here last week and it makes those of us who come in here for actual news and happening both despondent and disheartened and angry, I'm sure that we could debate the merits of different door locking systems or operating methods or whatever in alternative places could we not?
 

12LDA28C

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Would some kind of system where stewards have to open the door with a key that locks behind them after it shuts be acceptable to ORR?

Surely the whole point of Central Door Locking is that all doors can be locked and unlocked from a central location by the guard, whether that's from the guard's van or other location on the train. Any kind of locking system that requires operation on each door individually falls outside that definition.
 

Llanigraham

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Would some kind of system where stewards have to open the door with a key that locks behind them after it shuts be acceptable to ORR?
Wasn't something similar to that what the ORR was insisting on, but when the ORR did a spot-check visit, they found that it was one of the things that they weren't doing?
 

12LDA28C

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We'll have to wait and see what ORR's response is to the latest application from WCR. Can't be long now.

Not so sure about that. The exemption / derogation request was submitted a month ago and according to reports, ORR deliberation on the matter may take up to four months.
 

Ashley Hill

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Having seen the Hastings unit at the weekend i noticed their CDL locks were very simple and well designed,why are WCRC making such a fuss?
 
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Wasn't something similar to that what the ORR was insisting on, but when the ORR did a spot-check visit, they found that it was one of the things that they weren't doing?
They had bolts like the ones you used to get on toilet doors. Didnt take a genius to figure out how to open one, and the ORRs main gripe was that the stewards would prefer to sit in the carriage rather than linger at the doors for the whole journey , and instruct the customers how to open the door so they didnt have to open it themselves like they where supposed to.

I'm more thinking of a propper key that has to be turnt in the door for people to get out, cant be taken out while the door is open and then shuts automatically behind them like a yale lock. That way stewards are forced to come to the door and open.

Having seen the Hastings unit at the weekend i noticed their CDL locks were very simple and well designed,why are WCRC making such a fuss?
The hastings set already had an electrical supply system built into it.
There is currently one one loco hauled mark 1 set with CDL , which was one fitted with ETH by BR and additionally has air brakes already fitted. Their also from the company that charge a lot more for a standard ticket so it makes more financial sense

Surely the whole point of Central Door Locking is that all doors can be locked and unlocked from a central location by the guard, whether that's from the guard's van or other location on the train. Any kind of locking system that requires operation on each door individually falls outside that definition.
It's not propper central locking but itd make it impossible for customers to get the door open without pulling the emergency lever, which is what the ORR says they are worried about.
 

Greybeard33

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WCRC's attempt to use support from the tourist industry in the Highlands is NOT going well for them....

WCR has now counterattacked by persuading 8 MPs to sign a letter (presumably drafted by WCR) asking Rail Minister Huw Merriman to put pressure on the ORR to grant a temporary exemption:

The pdf of the letter is locked to prevent selective quoting. It states that WCR has now submitted an application for a long term exemption "with enhanced oversight of secondary door locking (SDL), on the basis of a comprehensive risk assessment carried out by an external health and safety consultant. WCR's previous application was criticised for not having a sufficient risk assessment." The related request for a temporary exemption is intended to cover the period during which the ORR is considering this new application for a long term exemption.

The letter goes on to repeat the "not fair" argument that the ORR has granted temporary exemptions to allow other operators to use Mark 1 carriages on the mainline without CDL. However, it then undermines this argument by admitting that the other operators have all committed to long term, timebound plans to fit CDL, including 6-monthly progress reports. Evidently WCR is still refusing to enter into such a commitment.
 

Wolfie

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WCR has now counterattacked by persuading 8 MPs to sign a letter (presumably drafted by WCR) asking Rail Minister Huw Merriman to put pressure on the ORR to grant a temporary exemption:

The pdf of the letter is locked to prevent selective quoting. It states that WCR has now submitted an application for a long term exemption "with enhanced oversight of secondary door locking (SDL), on the basis of a comprehensive risk assessment carried out by an external health and safety consultant. WCR's previous application was criticised for not having a sufficient risk assessment." The related request for a temporary exemption is intended to cover the period during which the ORR is considering this new application for a long term exemption.

The letter goes on to repeat the "not fair" argument that the ORR has granted temporary exemptions to allow other operators to use Mark 1 carriages on the mainline without CDL. However, it then undermines this argument by admitting that the other operators have all committed to long term, timebound plans to fit CDL, including 6-monthly progress reports. Evidently WCR is still refusing to enter into such a commitment.
If WCRC had put half of the effort that they have into having their own way into complying with their previous exemption and/or complying with the rules then they wouldn't be in this mess now. Their owner seems to do a fine line in arrogant pighead-ness.
 

GusB

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I'm not sure why any of those MPs would really care. None of them represent Scottish constituencies, other than Jamie Stone whose constituency is Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross.

The list is:
  • David Morris
  • Tim Farron
  • Sarah Dines
  • Jamie Stone
  • James Wild
  • Graham Brady
  • Robbie Moore
  • Cat Smith
 
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If WCRC had put half of the effort that they have into having their own way into complying with their previous exemption and/or complying with the rules then they wouldn't be in this mess now. Their owner seems to do a fine line in arrogant pighead-ness.
They have been intransigent but I do think fitting a novel saftey system to 60 year old trains is a bit more time consuming than writing some press releases

No. The regulation is very clear that it is centrally controlled locking that is required. Extract from the legislation is below.
It could be feasible grounds for an exemption though . A key system which only stewards have access to would be a lot safer than the system they was previously permitted to use and VT and NYMR are currently using
 

Wolfie

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They have been intransigent but I do think fitting a novel saftey system to 60 year old trains is a bit more time consuming than writing some press releases
To take a case to Court, lose and then proceed as if that never happened though...

I'm not sure why any of those MPs would really care. None of them represent Scottish constituencies, other than Jamie Stone whose constituency is Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross.

The list is:
  • David Morris
  • Tim Farron
  • Sarah Dines
  • Jamie Stone
  • James Wild
  • Graham Brady
  • Robbie Moore
  • Cat Smith
Do some perhaps represent constituencies where WCRC and/or companies which support them have a presence?
 
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lose and then proceed as if that never happened though...
Is that what you call shutting down the non compliant services and reducing what you can do to what you can do legally.

I think ultimately they did all the stalling because they had decided it's not economical to fit CDL and worst case they can get rid of the (relatively cheap tickets) jacobite and focus on their more profitable railtour business, using the mark 2 set.
 
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12LDA28C

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WCRC appears to have run a train from Fort William to Mallaig this morning in the usual Jacobite path, with 37676/685 as the traction....


They have been intransigent but I do think fitting a novel saftey system to 60 year old trains is a bit more time consuming than writing some press releases

They've had 20 years to fit CDL. How long do you think it takes?

I think ultimately they did all the stalling because they had decided it's not economical to fit CDL and worst case they can get rid of the (relatively cheap tickets) jacobite and focus on their more profitable railtour business, using the mark 2 set.

It doesn't matter if it's not 'economical' or not. It's required, end of story. Also WCRC have £6 million in the bank and make £1 million in profit each Jacobite season, so to plead poverty is clearly nonsense.
 
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sprinterguy

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WCRC appears to have run a train from Fort William to Mallaig this morning in the usual Jacobite path, with 37676/685 as the traction....




They've had 20 years to fit CDL. How long do you think it takes?
That must have put four class 37s at Arisaig at noon when the LSL and WCRC workings crossed over, assuming the LSL service is running top and tail. Can't imagine that's happened often, or at all, over the decades, and especially not with a majority of 37/5s.
 
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jfollows

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Text of WCRC letter (https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/downloads/wcr-mp-letter-26-03-24.pdf):
HOUSE OF COMMONS
LONDON SW1A 0AA
Date: 26th March 2024

Dear Minister,
West Coast Railway Company

We write to you as a group of Members of Parliament in whose constituencies West Coast Railway Company (WCR) and Railway Touring Company (RTC) operations are based, whose constituencies are served by WCR and RTC heritage train journeys, providing important economic support to local businesses or with an interest in protecting and promoting the UK’s heritage rail sector.

This letter follows earlier correspondence with you from a number of us, WCR and RTC.

We are grateful for the attention you have given this matter to date and ask you to consider the contents of this letter at your earliest convenience.

Application for a Regulation 5 long-term exemption

On Friday 8 March 2024, WCR made an application to the ORR for a long-term “Regulation 5” exemption to operate its heritage Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages on the mainline without central door locking (CDL). As you will know, its previous exemption was withdrawn on 8 January.

This application asks the ORR to consider granting an exemption for the continued use of hinged-door carriages with enhanced oversight of secondary-door locking (SDL), on the basis of a comprehensive risk assessment carried out by an external health and safety consultant. WCR’s previous application was criticised for not having a sufficient risk assessment.

Although the ORR’s policy on the granting of exemptions emphasises that fitment of CDL will be required, there are exceptions. It makes clear that ORR will consider granting an exemption where an applicant can demonstrate exceptional circumstances. Consistently with this, the ORR has confirmed that it cannot “shut its ears” to an application for an exemption which excludes the fitment of CDL. The High Court judgment helpfully summarises the policy as follows:

“The ORR’s policy gives a strong steer that central door locking will be required but it nonetheless makes clear that ORR will consider granting an exemption from Regulation 5 where an applicant can “demonstrate that there are exceptional circumstances”. Two examples of exceptional circumstances are given but they are not said to be exhaustive. It is ‘expected’ that any deviation from the policy “provide an equivalent level of safety protection to central door locking” but the requirement is not mandatory.”

WCR‘s application is intended to meet the exceptional circumstances exception to the policy.

We note from your correspondence with the managing director of RTC that you encouraged WCR to implement CDL on its rolling stock as soon as possible. We set out the above policy context in order to clarify two points in this regard. First, WCR is acting reasonably in making an application for a Regulation 5 exemption on the basis of SDL, supported by a robust risk assessment meeting the ORR’s requirements. Secondly, the ORR has to keep an open mind in considering the application. Given the huge cost of fitting CDL - WCR has 125 Mark 1 and 2 carriages which would require fitting, approximately 60% of the heritage rolling stock in the UK - it is understandable that they should wish to make a further application for an exemption on the basis that it meets the exceptional circumstances exception in the ORR policy. We are concerned that WCR should not be judged negatively for doing so.

Application for a temporary Regulation 5 exemption

WCR’s immediate concern is that it is able to operate its services while the full application is considered. This concern is shared by the RTC, whose heritage operations are wholly reliant on WCR’s Mark 1 rolling stock.

WCR had previously requested a temporary exemption while it was preparing its application, both at an in-person meeting with Richard Hines, HM Deputy Chief Inspector of Railways at the ORR, on 7 February 2024 and in follow-up correspondence on 15 February. ORR’s response was that it requires an application from WCR before it will consider whether the granting of a regulation 5 exemption is appropriate.

In its covering letter accompanying the application sent to the ORR last Friday, WCR requested a temporary exemption to cover the period of the application, now that a full application had been submitted.

The ORR has a statutory period of four months to consider WCR’s application and reach a determination, on receipt of all required information. In practice, the ORR’s assessment of an exemption application can take much longer than four months. It can request further information and restart the clock upon its receipt. This can happen multiple times. WCR’s last application took nearly two years to be processed.

Even were the ORR to decide the application in four months, this period extends through spring to the summer months, the busiest period for both WCR and RTC, third-party suppliers and hospitality and retail businesses who depend on their services.

The ORR’s refusal, and its consequences

On 13 March 2024, the ORR refused to grant WCR'‘s request for a temporary exemption, stating that “the unique set of circumstances that resulted in the grant of short-term temporary extensions to WCRC no longer apply and as such, a temporary exemption will not be granted while we assess the
application.”

The consequences for both WCR, RTC, the tourism-based economies in our constituencies and members of the public who have booked tickets will be profound:

- In terms of WCR, the bookings of 77,000 passengers are at risk. The first Jacobite service runs
on 28 March.

- The Jacobite service alone brings in an annual average of £25 million in tourism revenue to the UK.

- RTC runs 70 steam-hauled tours in the UK. It carried 22,000 passengers in 2023 and currently has over 10,000 passengers booked for 2024. Its seven-day UK tour on The Great Britain XVI runs on 13 April.

- Neither WCR nor RTC will be able to withstand the financial costs of cancelling their services for a minimum of four months, let alone any longer, while the full application is considered.

Our request
We ask that you urgently consider for yourself, and in turn discuss with the ORR, whether its refusal of the temporary exemption is based on legitimate regulatory reasons. For the reasons below, we are deeply concerned that it is not.

Safety

In previous correspondence with us, WCR and RTC you have explained that it would not be appropriate for you to intervene where “a safety issue” has been identified and acted upon by the ORR.

We want to clarify that, in relation to the granting of a temporary exemption while the full application is considered, there are no safety reasons to justify a refusal. This is for two reasons:

1. There has been no suggestion from the ORR that, since its last inspection in the summer, WCR's operating procedures have given rise to new safety concerns, which require an immediate revocation of the exemption. This is confirmed in the High Court judgment:

After inspection on 8 August 2023, the ORR was satisfied that the changes proposed by the Claimant were sufficient to address the safety concerns raised by its June and July inspections.

2. WCR has operated with an exemption for 18 years, during which time there has been no serious injury attributable to the lack of CDL.

Consistency of approach and fairness

Other operators are operating on the mainline with an exemption, the only difference being they have given a long-term commitment to carry out plans for fitment of CDL. In its first decision letter to WCR, dated 31 January 2023, the ORR stated:

“However, even though operators have had a significant period to fit CDL since the Regulations came into force, we are not requiring operators or owners to cease using vehicles until CDL is fitted. Instead, we have requested that operators provide timebound plans for how they will fit CDL for our consideration, which include any financial, engineering, etc. limitations which means fitment might take longer.”

The fitment plans can be found on the ORR’s website here. An example from one of the exemption certificates reads:

“The Company must ensure that the fitment of a method of centrally locking hinged doors in a closed position to the Rolling Stock shall take place in accordance with the fitment plan provided to ORR on 28 February 2023 (the ‘Fitment Plan’).

“The Company must ensure that it provides ORR with written updates of progress against the Fitment Plan at 6-monthly intervals starting from the date of this certificate.

“The Company must notify ORR in writing of delays to completion of any part of the Fitment Plan including the reasons for the delays.” (Emphasis added.)

The key conclusion we ask you draw from this, in terms of WCR'‘s application for a temporary exemption, is less that other operators have long-term plans in place to fit CDL; more that they are currently allowed to use Mark 1 carriages with hinged doors and SDL on the mainline without the risk to passenger safety being considered by the ORR to be a sufficient reason for them not to operate.

WCR is asking to be treated in the same way. The approach to WCR’s application for a temporary exemption should be based on a safety assessment. It should not be clouded by the fact it has not to date made an application to fit CDL.

Conclusion

Regulators have enormous powers which, if exercised unreasonably, have the capacity to bring businesses they regulate to a quick end. It is for that reason that they are politically accountable - it is a vital democratic safeguard.

Given the reasons for the temporary exemption application (the imminent tourist season), we urge you to act on this letter as soon as possible.

Yours Sincerely

David Morris MP

Tim Farron MP

Sarah Dines MP

Jamie Stone MP

James Wild MP

Rt Hon Sir Graham Brady

Robbie Moore MP

Cat Smith MP
I hope I have "tidied up" the effects from the OCR process (Tesseract).

I just don't agree with the premise that because something's been OK for 18 years, that it remains OK now and in the future. This argument could be applied to rail workers on live lines, such as was allowed for the WCML electrification in the 1960s, but clearly the world has moved on since then and more stringent safety precautions and measures are required today, meaning more line closures during work. Likewise for doors on trains. I don't see the case being made at all here.
 
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43096

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It could be feasible grounds for an exemption though . A key system which only stewards have access to would be a lot safer than the system they was previously permitted to use and VT and NYMR are currently using
That’s a complete red herring. WCR need to do what other operators have done and come up with a committed, time bound CDL fitment programme in return for an exemption while they deliver that programme.
 

Greybeard33

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Cat Smith is Lancaster and Fleetwood, David Morris' constituency covers Carnforth, Tim Farron is the MP for the south Lakes
Four of the other five are Tories (Jamie Stone is Lib Dem). Graham Brady (Chairman of the 1922 Committee) is well known for his libertarian views (e.g. opposition to Covid restrictions) and might be expected to support the WCR position on principle.
 

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