Belfast Dublin Enterprise service upgrade funded

Sealink · 9 Apr 2024

BBC News - Enterprise: Belfast-Dublin rail to receive multi-million investment

Enterprise: Belfast-Dublin rail to receive multi-million investment

Cross-border rail services between Belfast and Dublin are set to benefit from a £141.9m investment.

www.bbc.co.uk

The thing is, the article mentions journey times will be reduced to 1hr 55 minutes.

Er, which it was in the 80s (admittedly when non stop services operated.

RailUK Forums

johnnydoe · 9 Apr 2024

Some info on the new fleet and proposed hourly service has been teased.

Cross-border rail services between Belfast and Dublin are set to benefit from a £141.9m investment from the Peace Plus Programme.
The funding will support a major programme to transform the Enterprise train service, paving the way for an hourly timetable between Belfast and Dublin.

This programme involves replacing the existing Enterprise trains with brand new trains by the end of this decade, allowing for an hourly timetable and faster journey times.

£141m boost for cross-border trains between Belfast and Dublin

Cross-border rail services between Belfast and Dublin are set to benefit from a £141.9m investment from the Peace Plus Programme.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

zwk500 · 9 Apr 2024

Matching end-to-end journey times while making more stops still counts as an improvement, no?

The step up to hourly is also presumably a very welcome move.

Trainbike46 · 9 Apr 2024

zwk500 said:
Matching end-to-end journey times while making more stops still counts as an improvement, no?

The step up to hourly is also presumably a very welcome move.

Absolutely

Compared to the current situation, this should lead to the train reliably being faster than the coach - even though it is currently timetabled faster, due to the high rate of delays, in practice it is often slower than the coach, so the speed-up and extra departures should be a big improvement

LNW-GW Joint · 9 Apr 2024

johnnydoe said:
Some info on the new fleet and proposed hourly service has been teased.

£141m boost for cross-border trains between Belfast and Dublin

Cross-border rail services between Belfast and Dublin are set to benefit from a £141.9m investment from the Peace Plus Programme.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Is this a possible order for Alstom Derby?
Looks like yet another bi-mode/battery fleet for the likes of CAF or Stadler.

poffle · 9 Apr 2024

LNW-GW Joint said:
Is this a possible order for Alstom Derby?
Looks like yet another bi-mode/battery fleet for the likes of CAF or Stadler.

Given that it's "End of the decade" for the new services and there is a lot of line to electrify and upgrade I think it will be a few years before these trains are being manufactured. So I don't think they would stop Derby closure/mothballing.

Trainbike46 · 9 Apr 2024

poffle said:
Given that it's "End of the decade" for the new services and there is a lot of line to electrify and upgrade I think it will be a few years before these trains are being manufactured. So I don't think they would stop Derby closure/mothballing.

They are suggesting a trimode (electric, battery & diesel initially), which suggests that they're not expecting to have finished building electrification in time

Though unless the contract was signed today, it does seem unlikely that it would help Derby

CAF has made many trains for the Island of Ireland before, so would likely have a good chance, so it may be good for Newport

johnnydoe · 9 Apr 2024

Sealink said:
BBC News - Enterprise: Belfast-Dublin rail to receive multi-million investment

Enterprise: Belfast-Dublin rail to receive multi-million investment

Cross-border rail services between Belfast and Dublin are set to benefit from a £141.9m investment.

www.bbc.co.uk

The thing is, the article mentions journey times will be reduced to 1hr 55 minutes.

Er, which it was in the 80s (admittedly when non stop services operated.

They badly need four tracking between Connolly and Malahide to separate DART stopping services from InterCity trains.

Even if they upgrade the line to 200km/h that's the big bottleneck. A future stumbling block will be high frequency services between Drogheda and Malahide.

It all boils down to one thing. Not enough tracks.

LNW-GW Joint said:
Is this a possible order for Alstom Derby?
Looks like yet another bi-mode/battery fleet for the likes of CAF or Stadler.

2029 seems too far out.

Hopefully it's not CAF. Their carriages on the Cork service are poor. Their ride was atrocious initially and it's never been great.

Edit: It's going to be 8 services an hour between Drogheda and Malahide rather than 10. I got the numbers wrong.

5x DART, 2x Commuter and 1x Enterprise.

Frequency diagram is in the link.

DART+ DART+ Coastal North

www.dartplus.ie

I still think the higher frequency is going to be bottle neck for the Enterprise. There's a reason the All Ireland Strategic Rail Review has proposed building a new line between Clongriffin and Drogheda.

Link to four tracking proposal between Connolly and Malahide. The tender for the study should be out in the next couple of months.

https://www.irishrail.ie/getmedia/01360b87-5c05-443e-a8aa-54345980d747/IE_CEF_FourNorth_Advert_V1-1_20230829.pdf

Backroom_boy · 9 Apr 2024

Trainbike46 said:
They are suggesting a trimode (electric, battery & diesel initially), which suggests that they're not expecting to have finished building electrification in time

Is it actually quad-mode? As in under electric mode it will be 25KV AC *and* 1.5kv DC?

eldomtom2 · 9 Apr 2024

Trainbike46 said:
They are suggesting a trimode (electric, battery & diesel initially), which suggests that they're not expecting to have finished building electrification in time

The BBC article doesn't suggest that diesel will be used, though admittedly they may have got it wrong.

zwk500 · 9 Apr 2024

Trainbike46 said:
They are suggesting a trimode (electric, battery & diesel initially), which suggests that they're not expecting to have finished building electrification in time

5 Years to finish wiring Malahide to Belfast would be impressive progress indeed!

Backroom_boy said:
Is it actually quad-mode? As in under electric mode it will be 25KV AC *and* 1.5kv DC?

That depends if you consider each voltage capability a separate 'mode' or whether it's a sub-capability of being 'electric'.

eldomtom2 said:
The BBC article doesn't suggest that diesel will be used, though admittedly they may have got it wrong.

Tbf the BBC just says 'Designed to run on electric and battery power for part of the route, there will be the option to convert them to fully electric in future.' Which strongly suggests but does not explicitly mean a third mode (Electric AND battery operating over only PART of the route). This could indeed be something other than diesel - e.g. Hydrogen - but the use of 'net zero' not 'zero emissions' from the other quotes in the article strongly hints it'll be diesel.

dubscottie · 9 Apr 2024

The info I have is that they will be 1500v DC with battery and diesel initially. The option of removing the diesel and batteries and 25kv equipment installed in the future is a must.
4 tracking between Connolly and Clongriffin is a no go. The option I have been told is more likely is 3 tracking. 2 outer lines for Dart with a bidirectional fast line in the middle.

Trainbike46 · 9 Apr 2024

Backroom_boy said:
Is it actually quad-mode? As in under electric mode it will be 25KV AC *and* 1.5kv DC?

I think so, yes

Though whether that is Quad-mode or dual-voltage trimode is up for debate!

Starmill · 9 Apr 2024

Trainbike46 said:
I think so, yes

Though whether that is Quad-mode or dual-voltage trimode is up for debate!

Tri-mode is often used misleadingly unfortunately, for example it was commonly applied to the 769s which were definitely dual-voltage electro-diesels.

Trainbike46 · 9 Apr 2024

dubscottie said:
The info I have is that they will be 1500v DC with battery and diesel initially. The option of removing the diesel and batteries and 25kv equipment installed in the future is a must.
4 tracking between Connolly and Clongriffin is a no go. The option I have been told is more likely is 3 tracking. 2 outer lines for Dart with a bidirectional fast line in the middle.

I hope your info is wrong, because that would mean that it wouldn't be able to use 25kV AC ohle until the whole route is electrified to allow removal of batteries and diesel.

What I read in a local press source that appears to have disappeared is that it would be a dual-voltage trimode from the start, with the option to remove diesel (and possibly batteries) later on

dubscottie · 10 Apr 2024

Any new units would be in service long before any 25kv is installed. I will look for the internal news item but I am sure the plan is -
1500v/battery/diesel
1500v/battery/25kv
1500v/25kv
Realistically however 25kv is not going to happen in the next 20 years unless the political/financial situation in NI changes.
The planning process in the ROI is a joke also.

johnnydoe · 10 Apr 2024

Yep, 1.5kV DC initially. Then dual voltage after they pull out the diesel engines. 2045 seems to be the internal timeline for switching the InterCity services to fully OHLE.

This is a call to competition by IARNROD EIREANN (IE) and NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS COMPANY LIMITED (NI Railways) for the establishment of an 8 Year, Single Party Framework Agreement for the procurement of new Enterprise vehicles (Enterprise Fleet Replacement Agreement) required for the replacement of the existing Enterprise Fleet (the Contract).

Along with procurement of the rolling stock, the scope of the procurement process will also include a maintenance contract in respect of technical support services and spares supply in relation to the new rolling stock (Maintenance Contract).

IE and NI Railways (the Contracting Entity) now wish to initially procure 8 new trainsets up to a maximum of 200m in length to operate an hourly service between Dublin and Belfast. It is planned to have the entire new fleet in service in 2028 to 2029 and to deliver the end to end journey sub 2 hours or better on the existing infrastructure.

Initial traction power will be Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Battery Electric (using the existing 1.5 kV DC OHLE) with the train designed to transition to a net zero carbon operation during its life by the removal of the diesel power generation for replacement with dual OHLE power supply equipment. The trains will operate on 1600mm track gauge, will operate in full length formation of a maximum of 200m in length and will be required to meet other gauging requirements of the Irish Rail - NI Railways network.

European Dynamics - View CfT Workspace

www.etenders.gov.ie

Trainbike46 · 10 Apr 2024

dubscottie said:
Any new units would be in service long before any 25kv is installed. I will look for the internal news item but I am sure the plan is -
1500v/battery/diesel
1500v/battery/25kv
1500v/25kv
Realistically however 25kv is not going to happen in the next 20 years unless the political/financial situation in NI changes.
The planning process in the ROI is a joke also.

Sounds like your sources are significantly more reliable than mine! Thank you for sharing updates

Translink has been talking publicly about the intention to electrify "at some point," but actual progress is lacking, so I'm hoping for change on that front

johnnydoe said:
Yep, 1.5kV DC initially. Then dual voltage after they pull out the diesel engines. 2045 seems to be the internal timeline for switching the InterCity services to fully OHLE.

European Dynamics - View CfT Workspace

www.etenders.gov.ie

Thank you for sharing

Does anyone know, when it says

Along with procurement of the rolling stock, the scope of the procurement process will also include a maintenance contract in respect of technical support services and spares supply in relation to the new rolling stock (Maintenance Contract).

Does that mean they want the supplier to also do maintenance, or just provide information and spare parts so that NIR/IE can do the maintenance themselves?

johnnydoe · 10 Apr 2024

It reads to me that they want to do all the maintenance in-house and the supplier provide necessary training support to allow this.

FormerBritInMe · 10 Apr 2024

A related project is the replacement of Belfast's Great Victoria Street station with a new 8 platform station, to be named Grand Central Station. This will become the new terminus of the Enterprise service instead of Lanyon Place. Although named "Central" it does not appear to be much nearer the city centre than Lanyon Place was (ironically named "Belfast Central" at one time), but at least it is close to hotels and co-located with the coach station.

First footage of the colossal replacement for Great Victoria Street Station in Belfast - renamed Grand Central Station

Here for the first time the News Letter can bring you footage of the still-under-construction Grand Central Station in Belfast.

www.newsletter.co.uk

duesselmartin · 10 Apr 2024

Why would one have battery and diesel? That is a lot of dead weight.

cakefiend · 10 Apr 2024

FormerBritInMe said:
A related project is the replacement of Belfast's Great Victoria Street station with a new 8 platform station, to be named Grand Central Station. This will become the new terminus of the Enterprise service instead of Lanyon Place. Although named "Central" it does not appear to be much nearer the city centre than Lanyon Place was (ironically named "Belfast Central" at one time), but at least it is close to hotels and co-located with the coach station.

First footage of the colossal replacement for Great Victoria Street Station in Belfast - renamed Grand Central Station

Here for the first time the News Letter can bring you footage of the still-under-construction Grand Central Station in Belfast.

www.newsletter.co.uk

It's one block further west of the city centre than the current main city station at Great Victoria Street, which itself is right on the very edge of the city centre.

Backroom_boy · 10 Apr 2024

cakefiend said:
It's one block further west of the city centre than the current main city station at Great Victoria Street, which itself is right on the very edge of the city centre.

But possibly would save 5 minutes on the journey to Lanyon place?

Starmill · 10 Apr 2024

FormerBritInMe said:
A related project is the replacement of Belfast's Great Victoria Street station with a new 8 platform station, to be named Grand Central Station. This will become the new terminus of the Enterprise service instead of Lanyon Place. Although named "Central" it does not appear to be much nearer the city centre than Lanyon Place was (ironically named "Belfast Central" at one time), but at least it is close to hotels and co-located with the coach station.

First footage of the colossal replacement for Great Victoria Street Station in Belfast - renamed Grand Central Station

Here for the first time the News Letter can bring you footage of the still-under-construction Grand Central Station in Belfast.

www.newsletter.co.uk

It looks like it'll be 0.4 miles walking distance from the new Grand Central station entrance to the City Hall and Donegall Square, against 0.7 miles walking from Lanyon Place station. So not enormous, but slightly closer. For Victoria Square or St George's Market, Lanyon Place station would continue to be slightly closer on foot.

Trainbike46 · 10 Apr 2024

duesselmartin said:
Why would one have battery and diesel? That is a lot of dead weight.

This isn't that uncommon LNER has OHLE battery and diesel trimodes on order, TfW already has some, and there have been musings (though little actual progress) on maybe converting (some of the) 80x and 755 bimodes into trimodes by adding batteries.

The main advantages are:
- Allows for regenerative braking when not on OHLE, by storing generated electricity in batteries, leading ot higher efficiency
- Allows the train to exceed diesel capacity for short periods to allow faster accelleration by drawing electricity from batteries as well as diesel engines
- Removes the need for idling the engines when in stations (in this case Belfast) without OHLE as hotel loads can be fed from batteries, reducing diesel use and improving station ambiance as fewer diesel fumes

dubscottie · 10 Apr 2024

Trainbike46 said:
Does that mean they want the supplier to also do maintenance, or just provide information and spare parts so that NIR/IE can do the maintenance themselves?

Information and spares. There is zero chance the unions in IE would allow a private company to undertake full maintenance on any train in the ROI.

Starmill · 11 Apr 2024

johnnydoe said:
It reads to me that they want to do all the maintenance in-house and the supplier provide necessary training support to allow this.

Yes a Technical Support & Spares Supply Agreement (TSSSA) is a relatively common part of new train contracts for England, it allows the train to be maintained in-house while transferring the knowledge of the design to the operator's staff, it usually expires after 15-20 years by which point spares may be available on the third-party market and internally the operator has everything documented. Usually this is viewed as an alternative to a Train Supply Agreement which is like paying out a fully-burdened annual warranty on the train for the manufacturer to keep it in near "as new" condition for however many years it runs.

williamn · 12 Apr 2024

Why does the new station have to be called 'Grand Central' which feels very American, rather than retaining the current name?

bib · 12 Apr 2024

Why does the new station have to be called 'Grand Central' which feels very American, rather than retaining the current name?

It's in a slightly different place to the current station, but mostly a PR thing i guess

Belfast Transport Hub to be called Grand Central Station

The site will replace the current Europa bus centre and Great Victoria Street rail station.

www.bbc.co.uk

Grand Central Station will replace the current bus and train stations at the Europa bus station and Great Victoria Street.
It will not be the first time the Grand Central name has been used in Belfast.
The first Grand Central Hotel was opened on Royal Avenue in June 1893 by Downpatrick man John Robb.
He had originally planned to develop a massive central railway terminus on the site, based on New York's famous Grand Central Station, but he failed to get the backing from local politicians.
In later year it was taken over by whiskey distiller John Grant and hosted many famous guests and celebrities from Sir Winston Churchill, to The Beatles and the Rolling Stones.
It closed its doors in 1969 as the Troubles broke out and it was later taken over by the Army in 1972 for use as a base.
The building was attacked many times and when it was no longer required by the Army, it was demolished in the late 1980s.
The site is now home to the Castle Court shopping centre.
A new Grand Central Hotel opened in Bedford Street in 2018 at the former Windsor House office block.
Meanwhile the station formerly known as Belfast Central was renamed Lanyon Place in September 2018.

Trainbike46 · 12 Apr 2024

williamn said:
Why does the new station have to be called 'Grand Central' which feels very American, rather than retaining the current name?

I also don't like the new name, and would have preferred if it kept Europa or Great Victoria Street, though as it wouldn't be on Great Victoria street anymore and slightly further from the Europa Hotel maybe that wouldn't make sense and you would need a new name to avoid confusion.

The project name is Weaver's Cross, which is a much better name than Grand Central in my view. Not only because of there being a Grand Central hotel and a former Central station that could cause confusion with the new station name

Belfast Dublin Enterprise service upgrade funded

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